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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131511
03/07/11 09:30 PM
03/07/11 09:30 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: APL
So the question - is sin just a wrong thought pattern, believing lies about God, or is it something else? I submit, that believing lies is insufficient in and of itself. If Eve had believed the lie at first, but had stopped short of eating the fruit, she would not have been a transgressor.


Jesus said, "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." "Thinking in one's heart," denotes deep thought, getting to the core of one's beliefs, not simply mental assent. The lie Eve believed involved God's character, not simply whether or not to eat a fruit. Satan deceived Eve by representing God to her as One who did not have her best interests at heart. Believing this lie led her into transgression.

Quote:
The Tree of Life could have perpetuated sinful man if allowed to eat from it, but it would not have been able to undo all the damage done, thus our need of a savior. And our savior Jesus destroyed the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) which is more that just lies. EGW in GC page 49 depicts Satan as lying about God, telling lies. Yet, "He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God." How do you lie and yet still not cast off allegiance? Particularly if Satan's works are his lies. At some point, Satan had gone too far. So far that even God could not repair it!


I think this is a good point. If the problem of sin were merely a physical one, then it would be easily fixed, whether by eating of a special tree, or God's simply snapping His fingers. But sin involves our core, and this God cannot change without changing us apart from our own decisions, which would violate our free will.

Not sure how clear that is, but what I'm getting at is who we are at our core is determined by our decisions -- what we choose to believe, what we choose to do and think about. God cannot change who we are apart from this mechanism (we choose to fellowship with Him, to respond to His Spirit, to meditate upon His word, to overcome evil with good, etc.), without our being like automatons. And, as you rightly point out, that comes a point of no return, where even God cannot undo the damage. I suppose something like alcoholism might be an example of this, to where the will gets to damaged, a person can no longer recover.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #131512
03/07/11 10:20 PM
03/07/11 10:20 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
-Though, through freedom, a possibility, I see that this fully-allowed-to-develop GC, will be the reason why no one will mistrust God again. However, consider this: I also believe that it could for some reason happen, however sin God and all of the Universe will have tangible proof at hand as to what this will lead to, indeed with all of the issues having been answered during the GC, then no one will object to the instant, summary destruction of such a rebelling person.


I think the rebelling person might object.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #131513
03/07/11 10:25 PM
03/07/11 10:25 PM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
T:Immortality rests inherently only in God. Our living is dependent upon His life. God alone is the source of life, so if man is separated from Him, he dies. This doesn't mean that man was created to "naturally die," however. It simply means that man has a dependence upon God in order to live.

A(quoting EGW):In order to possess an endless existence, man must continue to partake of the tree of life. Deprived of this, his vitality would gradually diminish until life should become extinct. It was Satan's plan that Adam and Eve should by disobedience incur God's displeasure; and then, if they failed to obtain forgiveness, he hoped that they would eat of the tree of life, and thus perpetuate an existence of sin and misery.

A:Tom - perhaps it is me, but this EGW quote seems to not agree with your view. The EGW quote agrees with Genesis 3:22.


I made these points:

1.Immortality rests inherently only in God.
2.Our living is dependent upon His life.
3.God alone is the source of life, so if man is separated from Him, he dies.
4.This doesn't mean that man was created to "naturally die," however. It simply means that man has a dependence upon God in order to live.

I'm guessing you're not speaking about points 1-3, but point 4. My point of view, that because man dies if separated from God, it doesn't follow that man was created to "naturally die," contradicts the EGW quote?

I'm not seeing this. Please elaborate how. Or, more generally, what in what I said (first paragraph quoted) contradicts what Ellen White wrote (second paragraph quoted)?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131514
03/07/11 10:38 PM
03/07/11 10:38 PM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
PS - Do you believe in the New Earth we will be dependent upon the regular intake of food, water, air, and the fruit of the tree of life in order to live forever? If so, what do you think would theoretically happen if we were unable to partake of them for an extended period of time?


This is an interesting question. I think our bodies will work much differently than they do now, and it's difficult to answer this. For example, without sin, will there be entropy? It seems to me that entropy is a by-product of sin. Everything we know about the human body depends upon entropy, however, so I don't know how we can go about addressing your question. That is, we'd have to imagine a situation completely different to what we are accustomed to.

I agree with NJK's point about such actions would of themselves be sin, by violating the health laws God had created. That is, God created us to eat, to breath, to drink water, etc. So it could be that persisting in a self-destructive action would be sin, which would bring about entropy, allowing sin to bring forth death.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131515
03/07/11 11:22 PM
03/07/11 11:22 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
Glad to hear that because many make the assumed Classical/Popular View some sort of a test of heresy. The Biblical View instead unlocks many Doctrinal and Prophetic Truths in the Bible. I believe that God, like with the October 22, 1844 test, allowed man to have the Classical View belief to test how they would act under such a belief that the future was both known and set in stone. With particularly SDA who hold this view, the more detailed and precise end time prophecies of EGW should have literally compelled them to live obedient and wholly devoted, active lives to the Gospel cause, since they, especially in EGW time, we ‘sure that the Second Coming would occur in the lifetime of at least EGW’. But it did not and still has not. And the incorrect Theological understanding here has also led many to reject the SOP and live lukewarm lives today, rather preferring to adopt a wait and see (i.e., wait for a Sunday Law) attitude, before engaging in all-out efforts to Finish the Work. That is the result of bad Theology, and it should not be a problem in our Church who has many “scholars” and higher education religious departments and seminaries.


Agreed.

Quote:
You have overshot my “painted target” here. There are indeed millions of inhabited worlds. In the beginning the may all have begun with only one inhabited planet per Galaxy as it the case with ours. In fact all of these worlds may each be in their own galaxy.


Why do you think this is the only inhabited planet in our galaxy?

Quote:
T:How could a tree, for example, on the other side of the world partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life "aromatically"?

NJK:Easily since this could also be speaking of this aroma being airborne and thus widely dispersable. To use a crude example, the often talk about and greatly feared “biological” attacks are known to be capable of having a great radius of contamination. So in a similar way, the aroma sent into the air by the tree of live can thus reach to all living creation.


If breathing the aroma is sufficient, then why would man have to eat of it?

Quote:
Based on what I understand from your view, I do no think that our view here is identical. I understand here that, (contrary to the clear statements in the Bible and SOP, I might add) you do not think that there is anything tangibly special in the fruit of life and eating of ot,


I haven't said this.

Quote:
but that I was merely an “object-lesson” to teach/instill, and for Adam and Eve to demonstrate obedience and faith in God and His specific command here.


Nor this! I never used words like "merely" or "only". I've said that the point of the Tree of Life is to teach sentient, spiritual beings that they receive life from God.

Quote:
All this shed some like upon the function of the Tree/Fruit of Life and indeed without it, Man’s condition, being mortal and thus ‘destined/subject to (eventually) die’, would gradually degenerate into fatal sickness and health failures.


I don't understand how there can be death without sin.

Quote:
Notice that the end goal of this just devised and “ratified” plan of Salvation is not complete unless man is able to once again eat of the Tree of Life. You view curtails this Biblical Theology after the “favor with God” statement, or even after the “beautiful garden” one (=Heaven/New Earth). That is why your Theology of the Cross is incomplete without this. And this Theological reality is all because it is only through this mean that God can make mortal live forever. God is dealing with real factors so we should adjust, align, calibrate our understanding to that Biblical and “Universe-al” fact.


My view is not that the Tree of Life is not that God didn't create man to eat from the Tree of Life, nor that the Tree of Life does not have special properties, but that the cause of death is not being denied access to the Tree of Life, but rather sin. I've also made the point that life comes from God, not from a Tree (except indirectly). God designed things in a certain way so that we would see that life comes from Him. If there were no tree involved (or eating in general, or breathing), it wouldn't be so obvious that we are dependent upon God for life.

Regarding comments about Christ's healing the soul/mind, I agree with that, but would also point out that the body is connected to the soul/mind. So we obtain bodily benefits by having our mind/soul healed by Christ. Do you think the Tree of Life would fully supply these benefits, apart from Christ?

That is, if we accept that sin causes harm to the soul/mind, which also causes harm to the body, can this harm to the body be healed by the Tree of Life, independent of Christ?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #131526
03/08/11 03:21 AM
03/08/11 03:21 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
1. Did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

2. Did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment?

3. Did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children?

M: My answer to the each of the three questions asked above is - Yes. I have no idea what your answers are. Would you mind answering them?

T: I'll address 3. Yes. For example, in regards to Jerusalem, He said, "How I long to gather you as a hen gathers its chicks, but you would not," indicating His desire to protect them, but they refused, and as a result of their refusal, Satan was permitted to treat them according to his will, and the destruction of Jerusalem happened. I'm flummoxed as to how you can say I didn't answer your question. How is this not an answer to your question? I answered "yes," and then explained why I answered yes.

Did Jesus close their 490 year probation early? Was there still a chance they might comply with the conditions and remain God's chosen people and nation? Or, was their death and destruction inevitable?

When Jesus finally withdrew His protection, what organic relation, if any, did their death and destruction at the hands of Roman soldiers in 70 AD have to do with their sins? That is, is death at the hands of enemy soldiers the natural, organic, inevitable result of rejecting Jesus? Or, is there something arbitrary about it?

Also, how is Jesus withdrawing His protection and permitting enemy soldiers to kill people different than President Truman permitting the military to drop atomic bombs on Japan?

Finally, I would appreciate it if you would take the time to answer the other two questions asked above.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131527
03/08/11 03:42 AM
03/08/11 03:42 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Do you believe in the New Earth we will be dependent upon the regular intake of food, water, air, and the fruit of the tree of life in order to live forever? If so, what do you think would theoretically happen if we were unable to partake of them for an extended period of time?

T: God created us to eat, to breath, to drink water, etc. So it could be that persisting in a self-destructive action would be sin, which would bring about entropy, allowing sin to bring forth death.

My question doesn't envision willfully refusing to eat, drink, breathe, or eat the fruit of the tree of life. It imagines a theoretical situation in which someone is unable to partake of one or more them for reasons that are not evil or sinful. You seem to be saying partaking isn't necessary to sustain life.

Also, whenever Satan desires to cause death and destruction, he must first obtain permission from Jesus. Jesus considers the request and then establishes the perimeters within which Satan is allowed to work. Jesus also enforces His limitations by commanding holy angels to ensure evil angels do not exceed His restrictions. Satan is then dependent upon Jesus to work to uphold the laws that give life and vitality to whatever resources he intends to use to wreak havoc on humanity.

With these things in mind it is proper to ask - Who or what acts when sinners are punished and killed? For example, when fire "went out from the LORD" and killed Nadab and Abihu, who or what acted to kill them? We both agree the fire did not act on its own. Please understand I'm not asking you to explain why they deserved to die. Obviously they are responsible for the fact they died. The question is - Who or what employed the fire that killed them?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131530
03/08/11 04:12 AM
03/08/11 04:12 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Jesus said, "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." "Thinking in one's heart," denotes deep thought, getting to the core of one's beliefs, not simply mental assent. The lie Eve believed involved God's character, not simply whether or not to eat a fruit. Satan deceived Eve by representing God to her as One who did not have her best interests at heart. Believing this lie led her into transgression.
One of the main features of God's creation is free will. So yes, as we think that is the direction we will go. Yes, believing the lie led her to transgress. But the transgression was the eating of the fruit, not the believing the lie. As I suggested, if perhaps Adam came around the corner just as Eve was ready to take a bite, and said STOP. And Eve did stop and did not take the bite, she would not have been a transgressor.

Originally Posted By: Tom
If the problem of sin were merely a physical one, then it would be easily fixed, whether by eating of a special tree, or God's simply snapping His fingers.
I think this is a naive suggestion when looking at the genome. The genome controls the laws of how a body functions. It exerts significant influence over all body processes including the brain. Autism for example may be in part a flaw in the oxytocin receptors in the brain. As more damage occurs to the DNA, there is a point where you can not fix it and retain the character of the individual. It would be impossible. You can not totally separate the physiological functions from the mental functions of the mind.

Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they could have entertained doubts about God's character. But with a perfect brain given the time and evidence, they would have sorted out the issues. The eating of the fruit, appears to me, to have causes a change change in their physiology which was not reversible by the Tree of Life, or by anything they could personally do. This is why they needed a savior. Jesus came and "borne our infirmities and carried our diseases" Isaiah 53:4, and "bore our sin in his body on the tree" 1 Peter 2:24. These are literal statements. And then Hebrews 1:3 says, that "he purged our sins by himself, then sat down on the right hand of the Father". Has he literally purges my sin, or your sin? No. But if there is a physical representation of sin, which he carried, then yes, you could have purged it from himself and by himself. EGW: "By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin."{16MR 116.3}. Key term, "participate in its sin".

The other issue Tom, is how does believing lies about God cause thorns to grow on roses, and our dogs to get cancer? There is no explanation.

Another question - what is separation from God? This is a favorite term of those that espouse the character of God (a character which I agree with), but that is not explained very well. From the same article above, "It was sin that separated man from his God, and it is sin that maintains this separation." {16MR 115.2}

And this is to NJK - The Tree of Life can perpetuate life. But sin causes a separation from God and how is that caused? One hypothesis along the genomic view is that the DNA so weakened by transgression/sin, would disintegrate in the presence of God. Who can stand in the everlasting burnings? Only the righteous. Isaiah 33:14-15.

Last edited by APL; 03/08/11 04:27 AM.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #131531
03/08/11 04:53 AM
03/08/11 04:53 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Were sin to reoccur in the New Earth, death would also reoccur. However, Jesus promises, "There shall be no more death."


I have addressed that point more fully in the blog post on my GC view (see Eternity Section), however succinctly said here, since man will be free sin can, though highly unlikely, occur again. Rev 21:4 also is speaking of: “death [i]of itself[/u] not being again (Greek middle [=reflexive] voice), so that would not include passive or active death i.e., capital punishment or “possibly” deliberately suicide. As I theologically understand it, the future is not known so I see this statement of Jesus meaning that He, and because of this GC proof, will not permit death to be reinstitute again as it was in this fallen earth, causing death. So if someone was ever to try to doubt God’s Wisdom and challenge His Authority as did Lucifer at the beginning, they would immediately dealt with. I however do see a period of many sincere ‘questions to God’ by the Redeemed during the Millenium, however after all is demonstrated during that time all issues in this GC will truly be completely resolved.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #131532
03/08/11 04:54 AM
03/08/11 04:54 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
It is one thing to loose the key, it is another is someone came in and took out the entire steering column along with the ignition switch. You may still be able to start the car, but it is much more difficult to control the car without a steering wheel.


Not being knowledgeable in genetics I may have spoken of the wrong causative element, but my main point in this key illustration was that the root cause of physical imperfection/disease, what this genetically/scientifically is, has a pointed cause. I spoke of wrongful thinking adversely, even greatly and most tangibly affecting the physical body, and that may be one of two possible way in which sin came to affect fallen man. That may be the “psyche-derive” aspect of it. What you are pointing to “transposons”, to me, seems to be the “physical” aspect of sin which, as I see it, could all have resulted from Man no longer eating of the Fruit of Life. Thus his body/genes naturally began to degenerate and get corrupted from its perfect state, producing those harmful results. Since I see that Man, as with all of Creation, being mortal, was always susceptible to such consequence when he stop eating of the Fruit of Life, I do not see that this harmful elements had to be externally injected into his system through the fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If that was the tangible case, the I think it would have been called, the Fruit of Disease/Death instead of merely “knowledge”. As I Biblically understand it, this “knowledge” came to be the case when God’s limitation on the influence of the Devil was thus removed and he could at will “share” his ideas of evil and lawlessness with them, further plunging them into sin.

Also sin and Disease are not the same thing, as disease is only the effect of sin and, as I see it, tangibly through the absence of the tree of life.

Originally Posted By: APL
EGW talked about "holy flesh" [2SM 32.3]


I personally see that you are eisogetically reading way to much into the writings of EGW. I have already encountered (through an email discussion) this attempt to force a scientific hypothesis into the statements of EGW with an SDA physicist (see his website here) who saw that God was incarnated again in the Nuclear Detonation on at the end of WWII!! My point is to exegtically study the writings of EGW and let her say what she actually understood and meant and not impose our various understandings on her.

So in short here, I understand sin to inceptively be a mind that has strayed apart from the Truth of God and this comes to have tangible effects upon the body as they are naturally or deliberately, physically acted out. In terms of the tangible sickness, disease and death that is the result of sin, I see that this all comes from mortal man no longer being able to maintain and restore himself to health through the Tree of Life. This will all first be remedied by Christ when, at the resurrection/translation, we will be given brand new bodies. We will then maintain this perfect “therapeutically” by the tree of life.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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