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Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #131696
03/11/11 08:18 PM
03/11/11 08:18 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Active Member 2018
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
I do not equate the voice of EGW with the voice of God. EGW was human, and as such she was subject to error. Everything she said or wrote must be compared to Scripture. We (I, at least) have no other standard but Scripture to determine what the voice of God is.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #131699
03/11/11 08:49 PM
03/11/11 08:49 PM
cephalopod  Offline
Active Member 2014
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 252
Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

How many people do you personally know who believe playing sports is akin to worshiping Satan?

Also, what is your opinion of Christian sports stars who use their fame and fortune to help spread the Gospel?


Hardly anyone to be honest, most people don't know - because...
...The Spirit of Prophecy has been suppresed in this area.
...When the Testimony is that explicit and clear.
...What do you think is the reason?

Christian sports stars? That's like saying Christian drug dealers or Christian [censored] Stars...
...The public simply has not been educated as to the S.O.P. in this area.
...Sister White was as clear on this issue as she was on other issues.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

I don't understand how your response addresses my comment and question.


It would sure be nice if the Sabbath thread could adjusted to allow attachments...
...The "Sanctuary Truth" dove-tails very well with the Sabbath issue.
...I want to link both subjects so pray we can see something happen here soon.
...You will understand my responses when you can start to see the attachments.
...A picture is worth a thousand words if not more.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Frank Peacham] #131700
03/11/11 08:55 PM
03/11/11 08:55 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Full Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 252
Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Frank Peacham
EGW on sports:

Ellen flatly said that “Satan...invented sports and games,” in which spectators lose their souls. She named “horse races,” “shows,” “theaters,” “tennis” and “football matches,” “exacting games,” that give “attention with trivialities” as unacceptable to Christians. She called “dancing, card playing, chess, checkers” as “dangerous amusements.” When men play “cricket, baseball or other pugilistic contest” Satan “is playing the game of life for their souls” and God cannot find a place in their hearts. “Satan is delighted when he sees” us playing these games because they do “not educate…While the youth are becoming expert in games that are of no real value to themselves or to others.”


White declared that “amusements, such as dancing, card playing, chess, checkers, etc., which we cannot approve because Heaven condemns them,” and they “lead to gambling and dissipation. All such plays should be condemned by Christians.” When “students (in) the spirit of fun and frolic” become “so interested in playing games that the Lord” is “crowded out of their minds.” Ellen believed that the “passion for games” crowd Jesus out. Ellen believed that the money spend on these games would be better spent in “bring the word of truth to souls in darkness,” reminding us that Jesus “did not live to please himself”


While I appreciate your facts I would appreciate it more if you would call Sister White by her appropriate Title; Spirit of Prophecy, God's holy Prophet or God's sock Puppet. When you say "Ellen" it could be thought you were agreeing she said those things yet do not agree with them. I.E. like you don't believe Ellen fully manifested the Spirit of Prophecy.

Please don't take it wrong - it's just when I've heard People call Sister White "Ellen" they usually are being critical of her.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #131709
03/11/11 11:42 PM
03/11/11 11:42 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
This issue is quite pertinent to this topic. I have just posted on my blog a SOP correction, from EGW’s own writings which substantively showed that she incorrectly placed the vision of the Ascension of Christ at the end of DA instead of between Chapters 82 & 83 when Christ first ascended to Heaven after his resurrection. See Note #14 in this post. Let me know what you (substantively) think.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: cephalopod] #131728
03/12/11 04:13 PM
03/12/11 04:13 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: cephalopod
M: How many people do you personally know who believe playing sports is akin to worshiping Satan? Also, what is your opinion of Christian sports stars who use their fame and fortune to help spread the Gospel?

C: Hardly anyone to be honest, most people don't know - because...
...The Spirit of Prophecy has been suppresed in this area.
...When the Testimony is that explicit and clear.
...What do you think is the reason?

Christian sports stars? That's like saying Christian drug dealers or Christian [censored] Stars...
...The public simply has not been educated as to the S.O.P. in this area.
...Sister White was as clear on this issue as she was on other issues.

Since the majority have no idea playing sports is akin to worshiping Satan, it makes me wonder if they are worshiping Satan. Wouldn't it be similar to Christians who have no idea they are worshiping the papacy when they observe the Sunday rather than the Sabbath day?

Also, would it serve the mission of the SDA church (i.e. proclaim the 3AMs) to make it well known Ellen White taught playing sports is akin to worshiping Satan? Ellen also wrote;

Quote:
Do not make prominent those features of the message which are a condemnation of the customs and practices of the people, until they have opportunity to know that we are believers in Christ, that we believe in His divinity and in His pre-existence. Let the testimony of the world's Redeemer be dwelt upon.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 58. (1900) {Ev 231.1}

It is of little use for us to go to pleasure lovers, theatergoers, horse racers, drunkards, gamblers, and scathingly rebuke them for their sins. This will do no good. We must offer them something better than that which they have, even the peace of Christ, which passeth all understanding. . . . {Ev 267.3}

These poor souls are engaged in a wild chase after worldly pleasure and earthly riches. They have no knowledge of anything more desirable. But games, theaters, horse races, will not satisfy the soul. Human beings were not created to be satisfied in this way, to spend their money for that which is not bread. Show them how infinitely superior to the fleeting joys and pleasures of the world is the imperishable glory of heaven. Seek to convince them of the freedom and hope and rest and peace there is in the gospel. "Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst," Christ declared.--Manuscript 12, 1901. {Ev 267.4}

I wonder how many SDAs are ready to hear what Ellen wrote about playing sports?

Originally Posted By: cephalopod
M: I thought you were addressing me personally when you said, "I believe you have missed the Sanctuary Truth fundamental teaching." Nevertheless, I look forward to a short summary of what you believe is fundamental.

C: Anyone who rejectes that Father God has "a body of flesh" is rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy...
...So that was addressing anyone who brushes off Sister White ( God's own sock puppet ).
...Because it's not the flesh which made these statements but God operating the Puppet.

M: I don't understand how your response addresses my comment and question.

C: It would sure be nice if the Sabbath thread could adjusted to allow attachments...
...The "Sanctuary Truth" dove-tails very well with the Sabbath issue.
...I want to link both subjects so pray we can see something happen here soon.
...You will understand my responses when you can start to see the attachments.
...A picture is worth a thousand words if not more.

Still not sure why believing the Father has a "body of flesh" helps flesh out the Sanctuary Truth.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #131730
03/12/11 04:25 PM
03/12/11 04:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
This issue is quite pertinent to this topic. I have just posted on my blog a SOP correction, from EGW’s own writings which substantively showed that she incorrectly placed the vision of the Ascension of Christ at the end of DA instead of between Chapters 82 & 83 when Christ first ascended to Heaven after his resurrection. See Note #14 in this post. Let me know what you (substantively) think.

For some strange reason I have the hardest time with your style of writing. It has something to do with the timing of events as it relates to what Jesus did and how Ellen recorded those events in the DA.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #131742
03/12/11 10:24 PM
03/12/11 10:24 PM
cephalopod  Offline
Active Member 2014
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 252
Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: cephalopod
M: How many people do you personally know who believe playing sports is akin to worshiping Satan? Also, what is your opinion of Christian sports stars who use their fame and fortune to help spread the Gospel?

C: Hardly anyone to be honest, most people don't know - because...
...The Spirit of Prophecy has been suppresed in this area.
...When the Testimony is that explicit and clear.
...What do you think is the reason?

Christian sports stars? That's like saying Christian drug dealers or Christian [censored] Stars...
...The public simply has not been educated as to the S.O.P. in this area.
...Sister White was as clear on this issue as she was on other issues.

Since the majority have no idea playing sports is akin to worshiping Satan, it makes me wonder if they are worshiping Satan. Wouldn't it be similar to Christians who have no idea they are worshiping the papacy when they observe the Sunday rather than the Sabbath day?

Also, would it serve the mission of the SDA church (i.e. proclaim the 3AMs) to make it well known Ellen White taught playing sports is akin to worshiping Satan? Ellen also wrote;

[quote]Do not make prominent those features of the message which are a condemnation of the customs and practices of the people, until they have opportunity to know that we are believers in Christ, that we believe in His divinity and in His pre-existence. Let the testimony of the world's Redeemer be dwelt upon.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 58. (1900) {Ev 231.1}




That's my whole point Mountain Man....
...I'm talking about "US" ( as in Seventh-day Adventists ).
...When Sister White said for us not to make prominent our distinctive doctrines to Gentiles.
...Until those OUTSIDE of SDAism know that we believe in Christ.

That hardly could mean SDA's can participate in sports!
...Are you saying SDA's don't know they are believers in Christ's divinity?
...So the Spirit of Prophecy should be hid from them until they get it?

I couldn't have made my point better than you just did...
...How long has our 'schools' been urging our youth.
...To participate in sports?

Answer: long AFTER the death of God's holy Sock Puppet.

Last edited by cephalopod; 03/12/11 10:25 PM.
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #131750
03/13/11 01:39 AM
03/13/11 01:39 AM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
For some strange reason I have the hardest time with your style of writing. It has something to do with the timing of events as it relates to what Jesus did and how Ellen recorded those events in the DA.


In my blog, I have and do state things succinctly as each point could potentially be a dissertation in itself. My point here is indeed that EGW was shown a vision of Christ’s ascension to heaven but was not pointedly told when it occurred. She therefore thought it occurred at the final ascension stated in Acts 1:9 40 days after the ressurrection, however the content of that revelation which shows that Jesus then insisted that his sacrifice must first be approved by the Father, among other points mentioned in that post, shows that this was a vision of Christ ascension immediately after his resurrection, and indeed should have been related between Chapters 82 and 83 of DA.

This post also challenges and corrects Stephen Bohr’s claim that the 24 elders were not the resurrected ones at Christ death who then ascended to heave with him on that Sunday morning since he says that these 24 elders were already seated in Rev 4:1 which he believes is being described by EGW in the final Chapter of DA. As explained there (1) these resurrected ones could have found their place to these thrones during the time when Christ was being examined by the father, however for the substantive reasons stated in that Note #14 and also throughout the post, I do not see that Rev 4:1 was a vision of what took place during Christ’s ascension but only later, after the early/literal NT Church days (Rev 1-3) a little after the 70 A.D. destruction when the Historical wave of Bible Prophecy (i.e., Rev 6ff; Christ’ Olivet discource) now had to find their fulfillment due to this, though not necessary, prolonging of time beyond the Apostolic Church age.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: cephalopod] #131782
03/13/11 06:38 PM
03/13/11 06:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: cephalopod
M: Since the majority have no idea playing sports is akin to worshiping Satan, it makes me wonder if they are worshiping Satan. Wouldn't it be similar to Christians who have no idea they are worshiping the papacy when they observe the Sunday rather than the Sabbath day? Also, would it serve the mission of the SDA church (i.e. proclaim the 3AMs) to make it well known Ellen White taught playing sports is akin to worshiping Satan? Ellen also wrote;

Quote:
Do not make prominent those features of the message which are a condemnation of the customs and practices of the people, until they have opportunity to know that we are believers in Christ, that we believe in His divinity and in His pre-existence. Let the testimony of the world's Redeemer be dwelt upon.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 58. (1900) {Ev 231.1}

C: That's my whole point Mountain Man....
...I'm talking about "US" ( as in Seventh-day Adventists ).
...When Sister White said for us not to make prominent our distinctive doctrines to Gentiles.
...Until those OUTSIDE of SDAism know that we believe in Christ.

That hardly could mean SDA's can participate in sports!
...Are you saying SDA's don't know they are believers in Christ's divinity?
...So the Spirit of Prophecy should be hid from them until they get it?

I couldn't have made my point better than you just did...
...How long has our 'schools' been urging our youth.
...To participate in sports?

Answer: long AFTER the death of God's holy Sock Puppet.

Do you think SDAs are any more ready to learn what Ellen wrote about playing sports than non-SDAs? If not, what do you think is the best way to lead them to that point?

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #131783
03/13/11 07:28 PM
03/13/11 07:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
M: For some strange reason I have the hardest time with your style of writing. It has something to do with the timing of events as it relates to what Jesus did and how Ellen recorded those events in the DA.

N: In my blog, I have and do state things succinctly as each point could potentially be a dissertation in itself. My point here is indeed that EGW was shown a vision of Christ’s ascension to heaven but was not pointedly told when it occurred. She therefore thought it occurred at the final ascension stated in Acts 1:9 40 days after the ressurrection, however the content of that revelation which shows that Jesus then insisted that his sacrifice must first be approved by the Father, among other points mentioned in that post, shows that this was a vision of Christ ascension immediately after his resurrection, and indeed should have been related between Chapters 82 and 83 of DA.

Ellen wrote:

Quote:
But now in His own familiar voice Jesus said to her, "Mary." Now she knew that it was not a stranger who was addressing her, and turning she saw before her the living Christ. In her joy she forgot that He had been crucified. Springing toward Him, as if to embrace His feet, she said, "Rabboni." But Christ raised His hand, saying, Detain Me not; "for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God." And Mary went her way to the disciples with the joyful message. {DA 790.2}

Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He had the assurance that His sacrifice was accepted by the Father. He ascended to the heavenly courts, and from God Himself heard the assurance that His atonement for the sins of men had been ample, that through His blood all might gain eternal life. The Father ratified the covenant made with Christ, that He would receive repentant and obedient men, and would love them even as He loves His Son. Christ was to complete His work, and fulfill His pledge to "make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir." Isaiah 13:12. All power in heaven and on earth was given to the Prince of Life, and He returned to His followers in a world of sin, that He might impart to them of His power and glory. {DA 790.3}

While the Saviour was in God's presence, receiving gifts for His church, the disciples thought upon His empty tomb, and mourned and wept. The day that was a day of rejoicing to all heaven was to the disciples a day of uncertainty, confusion, and perplexity. Their unbelief in the testimony of the women gives evidence of how low their faith had sunk. The news of Christ's resurrection was so different from what they had anticipated that they could not believe it. It was too good to be true, they thought. They had heard so much of the doctrines and the so-called scientific theories of the Sadducees that the impression made on their minds in regard to the resurrection was vague. They scarcely knew what the resurrection from the dead could mean. They were unable to take in the great subject. {DA 790.4}

In the DA quote above she clearly says that on Sunday Jesus was raised from the grave, spoke to Mary, ascended to heaven, met with the Father, returned to earth, and met with His disciples. Is there doubt regarding this testimony?

Originally Posted By: NJK
This post also challenges and corrects Stephen Bohr’s claim that the 24 elders were not the resurrected ones at Christ death who then ascended to heave with him on that Sunday morning since he says that these 24 elders were already seated in Rev 4:1 which he believes is being described by EGW in the final Chapter of DA. As explained there (1) these resurrected ones could have found their place to these thrones during the time when Christ was being examined by the father, however for the substantive reasons stated in that Note #14 and also throughout the post, I do not see that Rev 4:1 was a vision of what took place during Christ’s ascension but only later, after the early/literal NT Church days (Rev 1-3) a little after the 70 A.D. destruction when the Historical wave of Bible Prophecy (i.e., Rev 6ff; Christ’ Olivet discource) now had to find their fulfillment due to this, though not necessary, prolonging of time beyond the Apostolic Church age.

Ellen wrote:

Quote:
When Jesus, as He hung upon the cross, cried out, "It is finished," the rocks rent, the earth shook, and some of the graves were opened. When He arose a victor over death and the grave, while the earth was reeling and the glory of heaven shone around the sacred spot, many of the righteous dead, obedient to His call, came forth as witnesses that He had risen. Those favored, risen saints came forth glorified. They were chosen and holy ones of every age, from creation down even to the days of Christ. . . {SR 233.1}

Those risen ones differed in stature and form, some being more noble in appearance than others. . . {SR 233.2}

Those who came forth after the resurrection of Jesus appeared to many, telling them that the sacrifice for man was completed, that Jesus, whom the Jews crucified, had risen from the dead; and in proof of their words they declared, "We be risen with Him." They bore testimony that it was by His mighty power that they had been called forth from their graves. . . {SR 233.3}

But those who came forth from the grave at Christ’s resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They were the multitude of captives who ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. . . . {CTr 286.2}

As Christ ascends while in the act of blessing His disciples, an army of angels encircles Him as a cloud. Christ takes with Him the multitude of captives as His trophy. He will Himself bring to the Father the firstfruits of them that slept, to present [them] to God as an assurance that He is conqueror over death and the grave.—Manuscript 115, 1897. {CTr 286.6}

In the quotations above Ellen makes it clear "the multitude of captives" Jesus raised on Sunday ascended to heaven with Him 40 days later. Is there any doubt?

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