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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131923
03/17/11 07:49 PM
03/17/11 07:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
1. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

2. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment?

3. In the OT, did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children?

T: "What really happened?" would be a good question to ask. If our ideas lead us to ideas that have God acting completely out of character, perhaps we should question those ideas.

I believe the answer to the three questions listed above is - Yes! The language employed in the OT makes it crystal clear that Jesus did indeed command the first two and did the third. In fact, we both agree Jesus did the third.

Do you agree Jesus commanded the first two? Or, do you suspect the language employed in the OT misrepresents what Jesus really commanded? For example:

Quote:
Exodus
22:20 He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Deuteronomy
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Joshua
10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

Again, the question remains - Why did such a loving, merciful, forgiving God command godly people to kill ungodly people?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #131925
03/17/11 08:04 PM
03/17/11 08:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: MM
Based on the above, is there any doubt in your mind as to where and from whom Ellen believed the fire came from that killed Nadab and Abihu? I believe it is crystal clear she believed it came from the presence of God in the most holy place. Do you agree? If not, can you produce positive proof from the SOP she believed it was in fact Satan who employed the fire that killed them?

To me, it is clear, it was God's glory the destroyed them. Not that he did it to punish them, or waited until they got to just the right place, and then flared up and killed them. God dwelled with the COI in the Most Holy Place. He had given expressed commands in how they were to approach Him, and Nadab and Abihu violated those commands. This is not vengeance or punishment on God's part. It is a natural consequence. EGW compares it with harmful habits we inflict on ourselves.
Originally Posted By: EGW
"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." God will no more receive a sacrifice from the hands of those who thus pollute themselves, and offer with their service the incense of tobacco and liquor, than He would receive the offering of the sons of Aaron, who offered incense with strange fire. {Con 83.2}

Tobacco and liquor pay their wage. God does not have to come down and inflict the punishment. N&A went in where they were told not to go, and indeed could not without suffering death. They destroyed themselves.

Did Satan cause their death? No... and yes. Satan is the originator of evil. He is the one that depraved human nature. He is the author of sin ( and I do take this quite literally ). I do not see Satan coming in and throwing fire on Nadab and Abihu. But he is ultimately the root cause of death.

Again, I totally agree. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}

In our sinful, fallen state we cannot survive in the light that radiates from the person and presence of God. The radiant light of His glory would cause our flesh to melt like wax exposed to sunlight. "Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." {Zeh 14:12}

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131926
03/17/11 08:08 PM
03/17/11 08:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
It seems to me that God only allows sinners to be destroyed by His glory if He wills/allows this to take place and could “dim”/attenuate this power in His glory at will.

I agree. Which would explain how Satan could appear before God with the "sons of God" in the story of job without being consumed to death.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #131928
03/17/11 08:16 PM
03/17/11 08:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Based on the above, is there any doubt in your mind as to where and from whom Ellen believed the fire came from that killed Nadab and Abihu? I believe it is crystal clear she believed it came from the presence of God in the most holy place. Do you agree? If not, can you produce positive proof from the SOP she believed it was in fact Satan who employed the fire that killed them?

In the Bible it says God slew Saul. You personally were not aware of any place where it says differently. That doesn't mean that it doesn't say differently. Suppose that part of the Bible, which you were not aware of, wasn't in there. That still doesn't mean God slew Saul. If there were no such occurrences in the Bible, then I would agree with you. But as Tom and I have pointed out several examples to you, shouldn't that make you think there may be other things going on? I believe you have said yourself that God assumes responsibility for the universe.

When a boss or project leader assumes responsibility, that doesn't mean he caused the mess-up (or success!) but that he takes the responsibility for what happened. A project leader is expected to control/coerce what happens. In the great controversy, do you think God's purpose is to control and coerce everything that happens or is there another purpose?

You have a presumed premise of what fire is, the purpose is, and see a binomial effect that either God killed them or Satan killed them. Could there be other alternatives? How does that match with what Tom has quoted Ellen White as saying numerous times from the Great Controversy?

If the fire that blazed out from the presence of God in the most holy place and burned N&A alive did not, in fact, blaze out from the presence of God in the most holy place and burn N&A alive, where, then, did the fire come from, and from whom?

If it wasn't "fire" that blazed out from the presence of God in the most holy place that killed N&A, what, then, killed them?

And, why did Ellen clearly say it was fire that blazed out from the presence of God in the most holy place that killed N&A?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #131931
03/17/11 08:55 PM
03/17/11 08:55 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
Quote:
And, why did Ellen clearly say it was fire that blazed out from the presence of God in the most holy place that killed N&A?
Are you aware of places in the bible where "fire" is not as you think of it as?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #131932
03/17/11 09:03 PM
03/17/11 09:03 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Again, the question remains - Why did such a loving, merciful, forgiving God command godly people to kill ungodly people?


Do you picture God as being this way? That is, is this something you see Jesus/God doing?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131944
03/18/11 03:59 PM
03/18/11 03:59 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
Hmmm, it almost sounds like he's questioning either if God is "such a loving, merciful, forgiving God" or if He did not really command people to kill others.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #131951
03/18/11 08:03 PM
03/18/11 08:03 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
It seems to me that God only allows sinners to be destroyed by His glory if He wills/allows this to take place and could “dim”/attenuate this power in His glory at will.

I agree. Which would explain how Satan could appear before God with the "sons of God" in the story of job without being consumed to death.

I think the episode of God and Moses in Exod 33:17-23 concretely demonstrates how God can allow even a man who has sinned see His “glory” (vs. 18 & 22) and still live. God apparently only ‘partly covered Moses with His hand for a while so that he would not see His face (= front side)’ (vs. 23). However Moses could, and/or was sustained to, see God’s glory of His back.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131952
03/18/11 08:42 PM
03/18/11 08:42 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Of course, this is really referring to God's character. God's glory is His character.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131957
03/19/11 07:42 AM
03/19/11 07:42 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
That has been a popular understanding of this passage, indeed based upon this passage, however upon carefully/exegetically studying the text, I do not see this as being the actual case.

Vs. 17 says ‘Moses had found favor/grace in the eyes of God so that his request to know God’s deeper and sure will for Israel would be granted, indeed mainly because of Moses’ faithfulness (vs. 13-16), especially here on the heels of the Golden Calf incident (Exod. 32).

-In response to Moses’ glory request in vs. 18; God did not actually say that He would not grant it, He just later said that it would only be the back side of His glory that Moses could/would see (vs. 20). And that is exactly what he proceeded to do in vss. 21-23. But before that God seemingly added other things that He would here reveal to Moses besides just this requested “glory”. And that was His “goodness” as well as the (audible) proclamation of His Name (vs. 19a). Then it is added, manifestly to explain why all this was being granted to Moses that ‘God would be gracious and have compassion on whomever He chooses.’ Notice this is not merely saying: ‘I am gracious’ and ‘I am compassionate’, as a ‘character description’, as it is commonly assumed, simply would do.

So I see that it was on top of proceeding to show Moses His visible glory (the back) as Moses had requested, God added the distinct “goodness+” revelations. These were also in direct answer to Moses’ request in vs. 13-16, as to God’s specific intentions for, and planned dealings with, Israel from then on (i.e., after this Golden Calf debacle - cf. PP 327.1-328.4). God was here telling Moses that He would judge amongst the people and not treat/condemn them as a whole, and be “good, gracious, and compassionate” on whomever, from amongst the people, He thought was worthy of it.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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