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Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #131991
03/20/11 02:02 PM
03/20/11 02:02 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
In reading your SOP statements which you have found, I actually find more support for my initial observation on EGW and this Ascension event: She was given a vision of what occurred but was not told sepcifically when it occurred. This chronological detail was left to her understanding and at first, in e.g., 3SP 202, 203; 206.1 and even in 1SG 74.1 she tied it to the first ascension. However, ca. 20 years later, in DA she tied it to the last ascension.

I don't believe that. I believe she knew exactly what she was doing. She didn't expand in her description of the first ascension in DA exactly because the account of the two ascensions would have been very similar.
I also don't believe the ceremony of Christ's enthronement extended for 50 days. Her words in AA are clear:

"When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as this ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents."

I don't even think it must have lasted 10 days - perhaps the trip took longer because Christ and the resurrected saints visited other worlds on their way to heaven.

She also says clearly that Christ was on earth during the 40 days, not in heaven.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Rosangela] #131995
03/20/11 04:34 PM
03/20/11 04:34 PM
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I think the answer to this issue is actually seen from the account in 3SP for when in describing the ascension with Jesus after the 40th day in 3SP 249-253; she makes no mention of the approval halting scene which she had tied to the first ascent, immediately after the resurrection. (3SP 202, 203). So it seems to me that she later, in DA conflated these two events. Apparently, the angels then, at that last ascension decided to have a royal procession. But the refused approval episode, which is actually more fully described in the DA account 833-834, had already taken place in the first ascension.

Also it could be that Jesus as a wave sheaf himself did fully the typology, and that as related in 3SP, the resurrected saints then ascended with him. Although I think they had been hidden somewhere until this ascension and were not still walking about ‘convincing people of the resurrection for 40 days’.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
She also says clearly that Christ was on earth during the 40 days, not in heaven.

Where exactly are you reading this? It may be possible, though Christ clearly did ascend immediately after the resurrection, and, as I see it, as related in 3SP 202, 203. However I still see that his worship refusal and his royal procession were two distinct events, however for some reason EGW conflated them in DA.

So my view is actually as described in 3SP and not in the last chapter of DA.

Based on this view, the enthronement ceremony, which as I now see it, only started from that last ascension, though Christ had been adored previously, may have lasted 10 days and when it was completed, the Holy Spirit was poured out. Christ may also have gone on an extended tour of other world as part of this enthronement ceremony, following his arrival first to heaven, which added to its celebration time.

So the real issue here is why EGW’s conflation in DA of the events that were seperatedly related in 3SP.

(Still against Bohr’s view, I do not see Rev 4 & 5 as being substantively descriptive of the final royal ascension, though EGW does quote from this in the DA account of the final ascension, and so, as he says, the 24 elders had to already be in place then, so they could not have been these resurrected saints. I rather see Rev 4 & 5, describing events that took place sometime after the 70 A.D. destruction, and thus those 24 elders had ample time to be enthroned.)


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #131997
03/20/11 06:17 PM
03/20/11 06:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
As EGW says in DA 793 (notice DA 833 & 834 similarities allusions in bold):

Originally Posted By: SOP
But Christ raised His hand, saying, Detain Me not; "for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God." And Mary went her way to the disciples with the joyful message. {DA 790.2}

Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He had the assurance that His sacrifice was accepted by the Father. He ascended to the heavenly courts, and from God Himself heard the assurance that His atonement for the sins of men had been ample, that through His blood all might gain eternal life. The Father ratified the covenant made with Christ, that He would receive repentant and obedient men, and would love them even as He loves His Son. Christ was to complete His work, and fulfill His pledge to "make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir." Isaiah 13:12. All power in heaven and on earth was given to the Prince of Life, and He returned to His followers in a world of sin, that He might impart to them of His power and glory. {DA 790.3}

[b]While the Saviour was in God's presence, receiving gifts
for His church, the disciples thought upon His empty tomb, and mourned and wept. The day that was a day of rejoicing to all heaven was to the disciples a day of uncertainty, confusion, and perplexity.

(1) All of these would have occurred again, and that exactly as stated here, at the 2nd ascension.

Yes, similar, but definitely not “exactly”. Jesus first goes to the Father without the resurrected saints to learn of the Father’s acceptance of His sacrifice. Forty days later He appears again before the Father with the resurrected saints. For the benefit of the resurrected saints, the Father repeats what He told Jesus forty days earlier.

Originally Posted By: NJK
(2) the Waving of the Wavesheaf of the firstfruits was to be done on the day after passover and not ‘40 days later’. EGW is most deliberate to say in DA 833ff that this is what typologically significant enough, occurred at that “second ascension”

She makes it very clear that waving before the Lord the wave sheaf of the first fruits two days after the Passover symbolizes Jesus' resurrection, which, in turn, symbolizes the resurrection of the saints at the end of time. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The slaying of the Passover lamb was a shadow of the death of Christ. Says Paul: "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us." 1 Corinthians 5:7. The sheaf of first fruits, which at the time of the Passover was waved before the Lord, was typical of the resurrection of Christ. Paul says, in speaking of the resurrection of the Lord and of all His people: "Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." 1 Corinthians 15:23. Like the wave sheaf, which was the first ripe grain gathered before the harvest, Christ is the first fruits of that immortal harvest of redeemed ones that at the future resurrection shall be gathered into the garner of God. {GC 399.2}

These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten the Passover with His disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate His own death as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." That same night He was taken by wicked hands to be crucified and slain. And as the antitype of the wave sheaf our Lord was raised from the dead on the third day, "the first fruits of them that slept," a sample of all the resurrected just, whose "vile body" shall be changed, and "fashioned like unto His glorious body." Verse 20; Philippians 3:21. {GC 399.3}

The wave sheaf symbolizes the resurrection of Jesus, whose resurrection symbolizes the resurrection of all the saints at the end of time. Yes, Ellen also wrote:

Quote:
He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails. He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents; who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished," He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 19:30; 17:24. {DA 834.2}

. . .

Chap. 45 - The First Fruits
[THIS ARTICLE APPEARED
IN THE THE YOUTH'S INSTRUCTOR, AUG. 11,
1898, UNDER THE TITLE "THE RISEN SAVIOUR--PART 2."]

When Christ cried out while upon the cross, "It is finished" (John 19:30), there was a mighty earthquake, that rent open the graves of many who had been faithful and loyal, bearing their testimony against every evil work, and magnifying the Lord of hosts. As the Life-giver came forth from the sepulcher, proclaiming, "I am the resurrection, and the life" (John 11:25), He summoned these saints from the grave. When alive, they had borne their testimony unflinchingly for the truth; now, they were to be witnesses to Him who had raised them from the dead. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan. I have redeemed them; I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow. {1SM 304.1}

During His ministry, Jesus raised the dead to life. He raised the son of the widow of Nain, the daughter of Jairus, and Lazarus; but these were not clothed with immortality. After they were raised, they continued to be subject to death. But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They were the multitude of captives that ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. {1SM 304.2}

After His resurrection, Christ did not show Himself to any save His followers; but testimony in regard to His resurrection was not wanting. Those who were raised with Christ "appeared unto many" (Matthew 27:53), declaring, Christ has risen from the dead, and we are risen with Him. They bore testimony in the city to the fulfillment of the scripture, "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead" (Isaiah 26:19). These saints contradicted the lie which the Roman guard had been hired to circulate--that the disciples had come by night and stolen Him away. This testimony could not be silenced. {1SM 305.1}

Christ was the first fruits of them that slept. It was to the glory of God that the Prince of life should be the first fruits, the antitype of the wave sheaf. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29). This very scene, the resurrection of Christ from the dead, had been celebrated in type by the Jews. When the first heads of grain ripened in the field, they were carefully gathered; and when the people went up to Jerusalem, these were presented to the Lord as a thank offering. The people waved the ripened sheaf before God, acknowledging Him as the Lord of the harvest. After this ceremony the sickle could be put to the wheat, and the harvest gathered. {1SM 305.2}

So those who had been raised were to be presented to the universe as a pledge of the resurrection of all who believe in Christ as their personal Saviour. The same power that raised Christ from the dead will raise His church, and glorify it with Christ, as His bride, above all principalities, above all powers, above every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in the heavenly courts, the world above. The victory of the sleeping saints will be glorious on the morning of the resurrection. Satan's triumph will end, while Christ will triumph in glory and honor. The Life-giver will crown with immortality all who come forth from the grave. {1SM 305.3}

The Ascension of Christ

The work of the Saviour on earth was finished. The time had come for Him to return to His heavenly home. "And he led them [the disciples] out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven" (Luke 24:50, 51). {1SM 306.1}

As Christ ascends while in the act of blessing His disciples, an army of angels encircle Him as a cloud. Christ takes with Him the multitude of captives. He will Himself bring to the Father the first fruits of them that slept, as an evidence that He is conqueror of death and the grave. At the portals of the city of God, an innumerable company of angels await His coming. As they approach, the escorting angels address the company at the gate in triumphant tones:--


"Lift up your heads, O ye gates;
And be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors;
And the King of glory shall come in."


"Who is this King of glory?" the waiting angels inquire.


"The Lord strong and mighty,
The Lord mighty in battle.
Lift up your heads, O ye gates;
Even lift them up, ye everlasting doors;
And the King of glory shall come in." {1SM 306.2}

Again the waiting angels ask, "Who is this King of glory?" and the escorting angels reply, in melodious strains, "The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory" (Psalm 24:7-10). Then the portals of the city of God are opened wide, and the angelic throng sweep through. {1SM 306.3}

There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are seraphim and cherubim. The angels circle round Him, but Christ waves them back. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His triumph in this antitype of Himself--the wave sheaf--those raised with Him, the representatives of the captive dead who shall come forth from their graves when the trump shall sound. He approaches the Father, and if there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents, if the Father rejoices over one with singing, let the imagination take in this scene. Christ says: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, "I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am" (John 17:24). And the voice of God is heard; justice is satisfied; Satan is vanquished. "Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other" (Psalm 85:10). The arms of the Father encircle the Son, and His voice is heard, saying, "Let all the angels of God worship him" (Hebrews 1:6). {1SM 306.4}

The reason she refers to them as "the wave sheaf" in these passages is because they are a kind of wave sheaf - tokens, trophies. But they are not "the" wave sheaf. All those years the Jews waved the first fruits before the Lord did not symbolize the saints resurrected with Jesus; instead, it symbolized Jesus' resurrection.

Originally Posted By: NJK
. . . (actually, by now, at least 5th ascension since Jesus returned to Earth on Resurrection Sunday Evening (=2 Luke 24:13ff), then 8 days later (=3 John 21:26ff), then later again by the Sea (=4 John 21:1ff). ] Clearly God was in Heaven for most of these 40 days as his recurring visits to earth did not last more than one day.

Ellen wrote:

Quote:
He was with them forty days and forty nights before His ascension. {2SAT 100.4}

Christ was with His disciples forty days and forty nights and then . . . He was taken up from them into heaven; and the multitude of captives were with Him; and a multitude of heavenly host was around Him; and as they approached the city of God, the angel that was accompanying Him said, “Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.”. . . {CTr 288.3}

And Christ Himself remained with His disciples for forty days after He rose from the dead, and before His ascension [He] gave them their commission, bidding them go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. {UL 263.5}

For forty days Christ remained on the earth, preparing the disciples for the work before them and explaining that which heretofore they had been unable to comprehend. He spoke of the prophecies concerning His advent, His rejection by the Jews, and His death, showing that every specification of these prophecies had been fulfilled. He told them that they were to regard this fulfillment of prophecy as an assurance of the power that would attend them in their future labors. "Then opened He their understanding," we read, "that they might understand the Scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." And He added, "Ye are witnesses of these things." Luke 24:45-48. {AA 26.2}

She makes it clear Jesus remained on the earth during the 40 days.

Originally Posted By: NJK
Clearly God was in Heaven for most of these 40 days as his recurring visits to earth did not last more than one day. In that case, then why would he not have had his sacrifice approved by the father as described in DA 833 during that time.

DA 790 makes it clear Jesus first learned of the Father’s acceptance of His sacrifice on Sunday the day He was raised and first appeared in the Father’s presence.

Originally Posted By: NJK
(3) Also if the resurrected one did not ascend to Heaven until that 40-day ascension then where were they all this time. Matt 27:53 could also say ‘“with” (i.e., at the same this as) his resurrection’ (Greek: “meta”) and not necessarily ‘after...”. As EGW describes in EW 184.1, their resurrection occurred: “while the earth was reeling and the glory of heaven shone around the sacred spot, many of the righteous dead, obedient to His call, came forth as witnesses that He had risen.” These descriptions match what was recorded in the Bible on the resurrection in Matt 28:2, 3. EGW says they ascended at the resurrection (I do not see that she says that Jesus ascended alone), then why are they again mention in this supposed 40th day ascension. These appearance of these resurrected ones could not have lasted long, probably ca. one hour, (and they weren’t all buried in the same place throughout the land of Israel), because as EGW says:

“Notwithstanding the lying reports circulated, the resurrection of Christ could not be concealed by Satan, his angels, or the chief priests; this holy company, brought forth from their graves, spread the wonderful, joyful news; also Jesus showed Himself to His sorrowing, heartbroken disciples, dispelling their fears and causing them joy and gladness. {EW 184.3} As the news spread from city to city and from town to town, ”

So if they stayed for 40 days doing this witnessing, their would not have been this perplexity of the disciples prior to Christ’s appearance to them later that evening. They surely would have convinced all of Israel in those 40 days. It is these substantive incongruences that show that the placement of the EGW vision at the 40th day ascension is evidently a chronological mistake.

There is no mistake. Ellen clearly says the resurrected saints ministered on earth during the forty days and then ascended to heaven with Jesus. Besides everything posted above, she also wrote:

Quote:
All heaven was waiting to welcome the Saviour to the celestial courts. As He ascended, He led the way, and the multitude of captives set free at His resurrection followed. The heavenly host, with shouts and acclamations of praise and celestial song, attended the joyous train. {DA 833.2}

And after Christ came up from the Resurrection, what did He do? He grasped His power and held His scepter. He opened the graves and brought up the multitude of captives, testifying to everyone in our world and in creation that He had the power over death and that He rescued the captives of death. {FW 74.1}

With joy unutterable, all Heaven welcomed the hour when the Saviour, at the close of his earthly mission, ascended to the celestial courts. As a mighty Conqueror he led the way upward, and the multitude of captives whom he had raised from the dead at the time when he came forth from the tomb, followed him. {PrT, February 18, 1886 par. 11}

As Christ ascends while in the act of blessing His disciples, an army of angels encircles Him as a cloud. Christ takes with Him the multitude of captives as His trophy. He will Himself bring to the Father the firstfruits of them that slept, to present [them] to God as an assurance that He is conqueror over death and the grave.—Manuscript 115, 1897. {CTr 286.6}

Those who came forth after the resurrection of Jesus appeared to many, telling them that the sacrifice for man was completed, that Jesus, whom the Jews crucified, had risen from the dead; and in proof of their words they declared, "We be risen with Him." They bore testimony that it was by His mighty power that they had been called forth from their graves. Notwithstanding the lying reports circulated, the resurrection of Christ could not be concealed by Satan, his angels, or the chief priests; for this holy company, brought forth from their graves, spread the wonderful, joyful news; also Jesus showed Himself to His sorrowing, heartbroken disciples, dispelling their fears and causing them joy and gladness. {EW 184.3}

While the holy women were carrying the report that Jesus had risen, the Roman guard were circulating the lie that had been put into their mouths by the chief priests and elders, that the disciples came by night, while they slept, and stole the body of Jesus. Satan had put this lie into the hearts and mouths of the chief priests, and the people stood ready to receive their word. But God had made this matter sure, and placed this important event, upon which our salvation depends, beyond all doubt; and it was impossible for priests and elders to cover it up. Witnesses were raised from the dead to testify to Christ's resurrection. {EW 189.1}

All heaven was waiting the hour of triumph when Jesus should ascend to His Father. Angels came to receive the King of glory and to escort Him triumphantly to heaven. After Jesus had blessed His disciples, He was parted from them and taken up. And as He led the way upward, the multitude of captives who were raised at His resurrection followed. {EW 190.2}

On the road to Emmaus, the two sorrowing disciples had not yet heard Jesus was alive, despite the fact the resurrected saints were circulating the good news. The eleven disciples were hiding for fear, so it should come as no surprise they hadn’t heard from one of the resurrected saints that Jesus was alive. They even rejected the testimony of the women.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #131999
03/20/11 07:28 PM
03/20/11 07:28 PM
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I appreciate your detailed reply here, Mountain Man however, I am not sure you first had read my latest post as I now have the view EGW first related in 3SP (1878) where she place the “approval events” at the first ascension (3SP 202, 203) and the royal procession at the last (3SP 249-253). (see also the 1858 1SG 73-74 & 77-80 account). After a more careful reading, I indeed see that they are not “exact”. I had thought I read the same things in those passages.
So I am now wondering why she conflated them 20 years in DA. This may be the only case in her writings where her “correction” actually caused a mistake.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
For the benefit of the resurrected saints, the Father repeats what He told Jesus forty days earlier.


Presuming this to be the underlying case, where are you reading this notion in the SOP?

Wave Sheaf
From the SOP comments I see that both Jesus and the resurrected saints fulfilled the wave sheaf. So it seems to me, based on my latest understanding, that Jesus timely fulfilled the symbol with his first, lone appearance (where he refused worship until his approval a little while later (3SP 202, 203); and the resurrected ones also fulfilled it (also timely with their resurrection on that Sunday. Jesus was the “firstfruit from the dead” (1 Cor 15:20, 23) while they were more specifically “first fruits of the fuller harvest” and also of other redeemed saints.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Ellen clearly says the resurrected saints ministered on earth during the forty days and then ascended to heaven with Jesus.


Where do you see that these resurrected ones “ministered” during those 40 days?
As stated in my prior post above, I am willing to accept that they had remained on earth during those 40 days, but I do not substantively or logically see that they were “ministering” (i.e., convincing people of the resurrection) during these 40 days.

I am however willing to accept from your concrete SOP quotes that Jesus was with his disciples during those 40 days, however, I have to personally adjust my understanding that in John 20:26, it was Thomas who was absent from the disciples and Jesus for those previous 8 days and that in the meeting by the sea, the disciples were mere surprised to see Jesus on the shore simply as they had not expected him to be there and not because they had not seem him fro a while. Indeed as it is said in DA 809.1, that meeting was according to Christ’s appointment. So he apparently only left them for that prior night.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The eleven disciples were hiding for fear, so it should come as no surprise they hadn’t heard from one of the resurrected saints that Jesus was alive. They even rejected the testimony of the women.


A simple sermon by Peter 50 days later that ‘the Jews had crucified the Messiah, but He had been raised from the dead’ resulted in 3000 (mainly foreigners) being baptized. The work of the apostles soon after that caused many of the priests (Acts 6:7) to also believe as well as 5000 (Acts 4:4) more (or perhaps 2000 added to the previous 3000) to be baptized. So it seems to me that if the resurrected saints were preaching that message in ministering for 40 days, given that many would know who they were, with the evidence of their opened graves as proof, these mass conversions would have occurred much sooner.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #132002
03/20/11 08:57 PM
03/20/11 08:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK
So I am now wondering why she conflated them 20 years in DA. This may be the only case in her writings where her “correction” actually caused a mistake.

I don't understand why you think she combined them into one description in DA. Please post the passage you believe does this.

Originally Posted By: NJK
M: For the benefit of the resurrected saints, the Father repeats what He told Jesus forty days earlier.

N: Presuming this to be the underlying case, where are you reading this notion in the SOP?

I'm using logical deduction. Who else would benefit from it?

Originally Posted By: NJK
Where do you see that these resurrected ones “ministered” during those 40 days?

Ellen wrote:

Quote:
Those who came forth after the resurrection of Jesus appeared to many, telling them that the sacrifice for man was completed, that Jesus, whom the Jews crucified, had risen from the dead; and in proof of their words they declared, "We be risen with Him." They bore testimony that it was by His mighty power that they had been called forth from their graves. Notwithstanding the lying reports circulated, the resurrection of Christ could not be concealed by Satan, his angels, or the chief priests; for this holy company, brought forth from their graves, spread the wonderful, joyful news; also Jesus showed Himself to His sorrowing, heartbroken disciples, dispelling their fears and causing them joy and gladness. {EW 184.3}

As the news spread from city to city and from town to town, the Jews in their turn feared for their lives and concealed the hatred which they cherished toward the disciples. Their only hope was to spread their lying report. And those who wished this lie to be true accepted it. Pilate trembled as he heard that Christ had risen. He could not doubt the testimony given, and from that hour peace left him forever. {EW 185.1}

I cannot fathom the resurrected saints testifying to the resurrection of Jesus for the first few hours or days and then laying low for the remainder of the time. To what purpose would their silence and/or absence serve? Indeed, the very reason they were raised was to proclaim Jesus' resurrection.

Originally Posted By: NJK
So it seems to me that if the resurrected saints were preaching that message in ministering for 40 days, given that many would know who they were, with the evidence of their opened graves as proof, these mass conversions would have occurred much sooner.

Wasn't it the outpouring of the Early Rain on the day of Pentecost that made the difference? All the witnessing that happened during the 50 days preceding Pentecost could not have had the same affect.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #132005
03/20/11 10:23 PM
03/20/11 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I don't understand why you think she combined them into one description in DA. Please post the passage you believe does this.


Read the separated accounts of (1) the resurrection ascension+worship halting+approval+allowed and given worship in 1SG (1858) 73-74 + 3SP (1878) 202, 203 and then read the account of solely a royal procession at the ascension 40 days later in 1SG 77-80 & 3SP 249-253. Their they are distinct and do not repeat each other. However DA (1898) 833-834, they are indeed conflated together into one event taking place solely at the 40th day ascension. In fact nothing is said about the details of a first ascension as in those prior SOP accounts.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I'm using logical deduction. Who else would benefit from it?


Still I do not see this as a logical deduction, i.e., a entire royal procession involving all of the angels solely for (24) resurrected redeemed people. I rather see that the prior ascension and worship was deemed not worthy enough by the angels and they here, effectively threw Jesus a more fitting, (perhaps even “surprise”) celebration and ceremony, indeed welcoming him to his thrown as he deserved. Also the mentioned ‘great preoccupation’ of Christ for his heartbroken and confused disciples, which EGW pointedly ‘was shown’|“saw” (1SG 74.1) may have dimmed the mood of the first celebration so it was redone those 40 days later when everything was finally, conclusively resolved on earth.

I agree with you that EW 184.3 speak of the work that the resurrected ones did, however I do not see there that this lasted for 40 days. ‘News spreading (i.e., e.g., by horse-riding messengers) from city to city and from town to town’ could only take a few hours and does not necessarily imply “40 days”

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I cannot fathom the resurrected saints testifying to the resurrection of Jesus for the first few hours or days and then laying low for the remainder of the time. To what purpose would their silence and/or absence serve? Indeed, the very reason they were raised was to proclaim Jesus' resurrection.


Why would this be so hard to “fathom”?? To me the Biblical evidence in terms of conversion points to a short and most limited work. God usually uses “faith” rather than such powerful demonstration to convince people. However He usually does start this work of faith with a strong demonstration that is then taken away so that the needed “faith” will prevail. Having resurrected “glorified” bodies (EW 184.1), possibly very similar to Christ’s own, they may have been able to disappear at will as Christ was able to. So will they may have remained on earth all of this time, they may have remained “unseen”. I however rather believe that they were led by God to a secluded retreat, which would not be that hard to find, awaiting these 40 days of final sorting out before their ascension.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Wasn't it the outpouring of the Early Rain on the day of Pentecost that made the difference? All the witnessing that happened during the 50 days preceding Pentecost could not have had the same affect.


That would, “unTheologically”, mean that it was the Spirit that convinced these priorly non-believing people to here believe. I do not see a precedence of this in the Bible. Rather I see the Holy Spirit was solely poured out on the disciples, and as stated in this blog post with the Jews then being devote Jews who thus probably spoke Hebrew/Aramaic, at least, the ability of the disciples to speak in their various foreign languages, was merely done to impress them.

Moreover, if it was the Holy Spirit that caused these non-believer to accept this message, it was extremely selective as only 3000 out of hundreds of thousands believed. In fact, some in the audience mockingly thought the disciples were drunk (Acts 2:13ff).

Also, as the outpouring of the Holy Spirit here was merely on the disciples and as a sign to these unbelievers, what is more “convincing”: speaking to perhaps Jeremiah, Joshua, Abraham and/or John the Baptist, or hearing someone speak in your native tongue, with both saying the exact same message? Seems to me that a sustained, day in/day out, public, 40-day ministry of the resurrected saints prior to that Pentecost event would have had much more of a “convincing” impact, indeed as it would have been more visibly ascertainable through such live witnesses.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #132014
03/21/11 04:23 PM
03/21/11 04:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
M: I don't understand why you think she combined them into one description in DA. Please post the passage you believe does this.

N: Read the separated accounts of (1) the resurrection ascension+worship halting+approval+allowed and given worship in 1SG (1858) 73-74 + 3SP (1878) 202, 203 and then read the account of solely a royal procession at the ascension 40 days later in 1SG 77-80 & 3SP 249-253. Their they are distinct and do not repeat each other. However DA (1898) 833-834, they are indeed conflated together into one event taking place solely at the 40th day ascension. In fact nothing is said about the details of a first ascension as in those prior SOP accounts.

She describes the first ascension on page 790:

Quote:
Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He had the assurance that His sacrifice was accepted by the Father. He ascended to the heavenly courts, and from God Himself heard the assurance that His atonement for the sins of men had been ample, that through His blood all might gain eternal life. The Father ratified the covenant made with Christ, that He would receive repentant and obedient men, and would love them even as He loves His Son. Christ was to complete His work, and fulfill His pledge to "make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir." Isaiah 13:12. All power in heaven and on earth was given to the Prince of Life, and He returned to His followers in a world of sin, that He might impart to them of His power and glory. {DA 790.3}

She does not combine the first and second ascensions on page 834. Both ascensions are covered separately.

Quote:
M: I'm using logical deduction. Who else would benefit from it?

N: Still I do not see this as a logical deduction, i.e., a entire royal procession involving all of the angels solely for (24) resurrected redeemed people. I rather see that the prior ascension and worship was deemed not worthy enough by the angels and they here, effectively threw Jesus a more fitting, (perhaps even “surprise”) celebration and ceremony, indeed welcoming him to his thrown as he deserved. Also the mentioned ‘great preoccupation’ of Christ for his heartbroken and confused disciples, which EGW pointedly ‘was shown’|“saw” (1SG 74.1) may have dimmed the mood of the first celebration so it was redone those 40 days later when everything was finally, conclusively resolved on earth.

Fair enough. She didn't explain why parts were repeated.

Quote:
N: I agree with you that EW 184.3 speak of the work that the resurrected ones did, however I do not see there that this lasted for 40 days. ‘News spreading (i.e., e.g., by horse-riding messengers) from city to city and from town to town’ could only take a few hours and does not necessarily imply “40 days”

Yes, much ground would have been covered rapidly within a few hours.

Quote:
M: I cannot fathom the resurrected saints testifying to the resurrection of Jesus for the first few hours or days and then laying low for the remainder of the time. To what purpose would their silence and/or absence serve? Indeed, the very reason they were raised was to proclaim Jesus' resurrection.

N: Why would this be so hard to “fathom”?? To me the Biblical evidence in terms of conversion points to a short and most limited work. God usually uses “faith” rather than such powerful demonstration to convince people. However He usually does start this work of faith with a strong demonstration that is then taken away so that the needed “faith” will prevail. Having resurrected “glorified” bodies (EW 184.1), possibly very similar to Christ’s own, they may have been able to disappear at will as Christ was able to. So will they may have remained on earth all of this time, they may have remained “unseen”. I however rather believe that they were led by God to a secluded retreat, which would not be that hard to find, awaiting these 40 days of final sorting out before their ascension.

Interesting. To what purpose, though, did they disappear and remain out of sight?

Quote:
M: Wasn't it the outpouring of the Early Rain on the day of Pentecost that made the difference? All the witnessing that happened during the 50 days preceding Pentecost could not have had the same affect.

N: That would, “unTheologically”, mean that it was the Spirit that convinced these priorly non-believing people to here believe. I do not see a precedence of this in the Bible. Rather I see the Holy Spirit was solely poured out on the disciples, and as stated in this blog post with the Jews then being devote Jews who thus probably spoke Hebrew/Aramaic, at least, the ability of the disciples to speak in their various foreign languages, was merely done to impress them.

Moreover, if it was the Holy Spirit that caused these non-believer to accept this message, it was extremely selective as only 3000 out of hundreds of thousands believed. In fact, some in the audience mockingly thought the disciples were drunk (Acts 2:13ff).

Also, as the outpouring of the Holy Spirit here was merely on the disciples and as a sign to these unbelievers, what is more “convincing”: speaking to perhaps Jeremiah, Joshua, Abraham and/or John the Baptist, or hearing someone speak in your native tongue, with both saying the exact same message? Seems to me that a sustained, day in/day out, public, 40-day ministry of the resurrected saints prior to that Pentecost event would have had much more of a “convincing” impact, indeed as it would have been more visibly ascertainable through such live witnesses.

I think you are undervaluing what happened on the day of Pentecost. Perhaps we should study it in more detail on a new thread.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: cephalopod] #132015
03/21/11 04:33 PM
03/21/11 04:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Quote:
Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation?

Yes! However, it serves the student well to study the sources Ellen cited in her books. Having done so myself I was amazed to discover how often those books arrived at conclusions completely opposite of the ones Ellen came to. Even reading the sermons William Miller preached during the Millerite Movement and comparing them to the conclusions Ellen arrived at later on is startling.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #132019
03/21/11 05:44 PM
03/21/11 05:44 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
She does not combine the first and second ascensions on page 834. Both ascensions are covered separately.


Manifestly you have misunderstood/misconstrued what I am saying was conflated. I am not saying that both ascensions were conflated. I am saying that in taking the details of a halted worship from the first ascension and entirely transposing them to the second ascension, which she did not mention at all in her prior accounts, she conflated the details of these two ascensions in DA. In her prior accounts there was not hesitation or halting of worship in the second ascension. However in DA, there suddenly is, and no mention of this with the first one in DA 790.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Fair enough. She didn't explain why parts were repeated.


Nonetheless her I was shown detail here can lead to an understanding that the return was not fully celebrated as the angels wanted to in the first ascension, thus hence, possibly a second, now unobstructed and fully joyful celebration.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, much ground would have been covered rapidly within a few hours.


Indeed, but more to the main issue here, to me that means that these resurrected saints did not have to minister for 40 days to accomplish this, but just a few hours. This news spreading was also done by others than them.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Interesting. To what purpose, though, did they disappear and remain out of sight?


As I had stated there, because on one hand, the belief in the resurrection had to mainly be out of faith, nonetheless God, as usual, had provided with them, substantial evidence upon which this faith could be built, and on the other hand, these were manifestly not “scheduled” yet to ascend to Heaven. They had to first wait for Jesus to complete his 40-day, post-resurrection work. So because of these two reasons, I see that they were probably led to a hidden place to await that last ascension. So if these were not hidden for these remaining 39+ days, people would have believed in the resurrection solely because of such “loaves and fishes” evidence, but not out of the GC needed faith and involved Spirituality. (Cf. John 6:26-38ff).

Incidently, as hinted there, I do not actually believe that humans (unlike angels and also Jesus) will have this ability to disappear, even when the redeemed will receive perfect bodies. I indeed see this as a capability of heavenly beings. So I therefore see that these had to physically be led away into hiding.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I think you are undervaluing what happened on the day of Pentecost. Perhaps we should study it in more detail on a new thread.


My view here is based upon my exegetical studies for that post on my blog. I am personally satisified that it is Biblical: i.e., the gift of the Holy Spirit enables believers and receivers of it to do physical and spiritual works that they normatively, of themselves may not be able to (readily/feasibly) do, however it certainly does not “compel” non-believers, nor even believers to believe something they otherwise would not. It does however serve to provide a “sign” to unbelievers, upon which faith can be built.

This topic is really not a main priority for me at this time, however I do see how it could be an interesting topic for a new thread.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #132020
03/21/11 05:49 PM
03/21/11 05:49 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Quote:
Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation?

Yes! However, it serves the student well to study the sources Ellen cited in her books. Having done so myself I was amazed to discover how often those books arrived at conclusions completely opposite of the ones Ellen came to. Even reading the sermons William Miller preached during the Millerite Movement and comparing them to the conclusions Ellen arrived at later on is startling.

I actually do not see that the aim of this topic/question was EGW vs. other writers. Perhaps the starter of this can specify, however from that thread starting post which poses the question of Bacchiocchi of:

Quote:
Did Ellen White view her writings as the final authority for any prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation of Scripture?


It seems to me that the question is, (perhaps also) asking: ‘When EGW says so and so about Scripture, is her statement the final authority on that understanding and/or interpretation. For many substantive reasons, and also for reasons of still unfolding truth, I have to say a resounding “No”. I.e., the deeper, especially more exegetical, study of the Scripture has, and will continue to reveal further understanding and interpretations. I think EGW’s own counsels, especially parting counsel, clearly say the same thing.

I see that EGW understandings were for an Historical Wave of prophetic interpretation, however, through many Biblical studies, as, e.g., culminated, detailed/explained and demonstrated in this blog post, I substantively understand that there is still an applicable, and currently fulfilling Eschatological Wave, which has spiritually similar/equivalent, but applicationally distinct/different, interpretations.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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