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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#132066
03/23/11 03:35 AM
03/23/11 03:35 AM
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M:APL, yes, thank you. When Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil angels to influence enemy soldiers to attack Jerusalem the Jews suffered a terrible slaughter. Jesus wept. And this is the point of the fig tree, which you said was "more to the point." So "more to the point" is the point I've been making all along, as APL pointed out.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#132067
03/23/11 04:59 AM
03/23/11 04:59 AM
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T:Also, if it is true that all that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son while here in the flesh, then again, isn't Jesus Christ sufficient?
M:Yes, of course, Jesus is more than sufficient. But "all that man needs to know or can know of God" (see quote and context below) is not sufficient to understand "his strange act" (Isa 28:21). All that man needs to know of God, or can know of God, was revealed in the life and character of His Son. This must include "his strange act," or else her statement wouldn't be true. M:Jesus has not seen fit to explain everything there is to know about His "ministration of wrath." Ellen White wrote that all that man needs to know, or can know, of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son. You are making exceptions to this. This is where we part company. I believe that Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God, including "his strange act," His "ministration of wrath," and anything else one needs to know, or can know, of God, as the statement says. M:However, it would be a terrible mistake to assume Ellen thought the OT fails to portray Jesus accurately. She wrote:
"The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New. It is the light from the prophetic past that brings out the life of Christ and the teachings of the New Testament with clearness and beauty. {DA 799.2}" Here's what she wrote in context: "Then He said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His glory?" The disciples wondered who this stranger could be, that He should penetrate to their very souls, and speak with such earnestness, tenderness, and sympathy, and with such hopefulness. For the first time since Christ's betrayal, they began to feel hopeful. Often they looked earnestly at their companion, and thought that His words were just the words that Christ would have spoken. They were filled with amazement, and their hearts began to throb with joyful expectation.
Beginning at Moses, the very Alpha of Bible history, Christ expounded in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. Had He first made Himself known to them, their hearts would have been satisfied. In the fullness of their joy they would have hungered for nothing more. But it was necessary for them to understand the witness borne to Him by the types and prophecies of the Old Testament. Upon these their faith must be established. Christ performed no miracle to convince them, but it was His first work to explain the Scriptures. They had looked upon His death as the destruction of all their hopes. Now He showed from the prophets that this was the very strongest evidence for their faith.
In teaching these disciples, Jesus showed the importance of the Old Testament as a witness to His mission. Many professed Christians now discard the Old Testament, claiming that it is no longer of any use. But such is not Christ's teaching. So highly did He value it that at one time He said, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31.
It is the voice of Christ that speaks through patriarchs and prophets, from the days of Adam even to the closing scenes of time. The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New. It is the light from the prophetic past that brings out the life of Christ and the teachings of the New Testament with clearness and beauty. The miracles of Christ are a proof of His divinity; but a stronger proof that He is the world's Redeemer is found in comparing the prophecies of the Old Testament with the history of the New.
Reasoning from prophecy, Christ gave His disciples a correct idea of what He was to be in humanity. Their expectation of a Messiah who was to take His throne and kingly power in accordance with the desires of men had been misleading. It would interfere with a correct apprehension of His descent from the highest to the lowest position that could be occupied. Christ desired that the ideas of His disciples might be pure and true in every specification. They must understand as far as possible in regard to the cup of suffering that had been apportioned to Him. He showed them that the awful conflict which they could not yet comprehend was the fulfillment of the covenant made before the foundation of the world was laid. Christ must die, as every transgressor of the law must die if he continues in sin. All this was to be, but it was not to end in defeat, but in glorious, eternal victory. Jesus told them that every effort must be made to save the world from sin. His followers must live as He lived, and work as He worked, with intense, persevering effort. The way you are interpreting her, it seems like you're saying Jesus Christ need not have come at all, as if His Coming added nothing to our understanding of God's character. But this isn't her point at all. She's explaining that the character of Christ's mission was prophesied in the Old, so that He should not have been rejected as Messiah just because He didn't come in the manner expected by the people in general. All of Scripture is about Christ. He is the One to whom the Scriptures point. "You search the Scriptures to find life, but they are they which testify of Me, and you will not come to Me that you may have life." (from memory; may not be exactly right, but this is the idea). Although the Old Testament points to Christ, it is not Christ. It testifies of Christ, but we receive life from Christ, as He points out. Hebrews 1 tells us: 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person ... Christ is "the express image of his person." Christ was a revelation which had not been seen before. John tells us that the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. What truth? The truth about God, as John explains a few versus later, in saying that no one has seen God at any time, but His only Son, who knew Him best, has shown us what God is really like. Ellen White tells us that the "revelation of God" was the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission. If God had already been fully revealed, the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission would have been unnecessary (ST 1/20/90). Regarding God (or Christ, as you put it) being accurately portrayed in Scripture, the problem is not Scripture, but us. We don't read Scripture as Christ did. Christ was able to read the Scriptures, and perceive God's character correctly, and this is what He revealed. Christ said that what He heard His Father say, He said, and what He saw His Father do, He did. Where did Christ hear and see these things? In the Scriptures. So what Christ lived and spoke is what Christ saw and heard when *He* read the Scriptures. But that's not what *we* see and hear when we read the Scriptures. There's a disconnect between our understanding of the Scriptures, and Christ's. We need to defer to Christ's understanding.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#132080
03/24/11 01:18 AM
03/24/11 01:18 AM
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Tom, with your thoughts about Jesus in mind, please address the following reworded questions:
1. In the OT, why did Jesus command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?
2. In the OT, why did Jesus command godly people to execute capital punishment?
For example:
Exodus
22:20 He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Deuteronomy
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Joshua
10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#132086
03/24/11 12:00 PM
03/24/11 12:00 PM
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My thoughts are
1.What happened may not be what appeared to happen. The story of the father of the hunter comes to mind.
2.Before tackling the episodes in violence in the OT, it's imperative that we have a solid understanding of God's character, or we're bound to misunderstand them, having God acting and thinking according to how we would act and think, instead of according to how Jesus Christ revealed Him to be.
3.Christ said that what He heard His Father say, He said, and what He saw His Father do, He did. Where did Christ hear and see these things? In the Scriptures. So what Christ lived and spoke is what Christ saw and heard when *He* read the Scriptures. But that's not what *we* see and hear when we read the Scriptures.
There's a disconnect between our understanding of the Scriptures, and Christ's. We need to defer to Christ's understanding.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#132090
03/24/11 04:01 PM
03/24/11 04:01 PM
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Tom, thank you. I agree. With these thoughts in mind, please address the two questions and texts above.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#132094
03/25/11 01:39 AM
03/25/11 01:39 AM
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I did and have been. Plus we've discussed them in great detail in the past. I don't have anything new to add.
I'll summarize what I perceive our difference to be.
I take Jesus Christ to be foundational, and, more than that, all-in-all in terms of revealing God's character. If I come across what look to be disconnects to that in anything, I defer whatever that thing is to the revelation of Jesus Christ. For example, in regards to the OT, I understand that what Christ lived and spoke was *His* understanding of the OT. I therefore accept that as definitive, and if the OT looks different to me, I conclude that Jesus Christ must be right, and defer to that.
I see no need to add to the revelation of Jesus Christ.
On the other hand, you see Jesus Christ's revelation as lacking. For example, He did not reveal the "ministration of wrath" as you put it, nor God's "strange act." Your perception is that we need to add to Jesus Christ's revelation, to include the Old Testament, and, perhaps, the Spirit of Prophecy.
So for me, it's Christ, and only Christ. For you it's Christ +.
To be clear, I'm speaking of "the whole purpose of Christ's mission on earth," to use Ellen White's phrase, which was His work while here in the flesh, in all the above references to Christ and His revelation above.
You can let me know if you have any disagreements with my summary of a principle difference we have.
Another big difference is I perceive you to be more rules-based, whereas I'm more principle-based. I'll go into more detail regarding this in a future post if you'd like.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#132097
03/25/11 12:42 PM
03/25/11 12:42 PM
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After reading Tom’s summary and enunciation of differences, above I’ll succinctly chime in on this topic again, just to say that it also does seem to me that Jesus put on hold His ‘ministry of wrath’ [as Mountain Man has said] and execution of due judgement, which was in line with OT Divine dealings during his 3.5 year ministry period, as e.g., explicitly stated by Him in Luke 12:49, 50 (i.e., (literally - also from the exegetical analysis I had done on this passsage for a sermon): “I have [personally i.e., not ‘been sent’] come to cast [“Hell” vss. 45-48] Fire upon the Earth; and how I wish that it be already kindled! But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how I am constraining myself (i.e., “holding myself back so that it may be accomplished [as it possibly may not be if Jesus so opted = Matt 26:37-44]”
I see a concrete manifestation of this deliberate delaying in Christ’s cutting his initial sermon on Isa 61:1, 2 short (Luke 4:18-21) as He refrained from mentioning the “day of vengeance of our God” (vs. Isa 61:2b), however did so at the end of His ministry when speaking judgements on the nation of Israel as they had failed to continue to advance in God’s will (Luke 21:22); indeed so that “all that has been written be fulfilled”. Ironically enough, “God’s day of vengeance” mentioned in Isa 61:2b, intended for the enemies of Israel, was here, out of pure necessity, going to include the unbelieving Jews (cf. DA 240.4), indeed as seen in the 70 A.D. destruction.
So the operative determinant here is to let the text itself determine what our view should be and not vice versa, however sincerely “righteous” we may consider it to be. If it is indeed “righteous” then it should not be contradicted. So it therefore seems clear to me that Jesus did not similarly demonstrate this OT wrath during his Earthly ministry simply because it was not yet the appropriate time to do so. That principle also manifested itself in God’s/His OT dealings (e.g., Gen 15:13, 16).
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: NJK Project]
#132099
03/25/11 03:50 PM
03/25/11 03:50 PM
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Appreciate your comments, NJK.
The question is if Jesus Christ is a full and complete revelation of God's character. If that's the case, we don't really need to consider exceptions on a case by case basis, as there wouldn't be any exceptions.
That Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God's character is explicitly stated by the SOP, in several places. One example is (from memory) "All that man needs to know, or can know, of God was reveled in the life and character of His Son." I think that's from 8T 216.
It's possible to arrive at this same conclusion using Scripture alone. I know of two people who have come to this conclusion, and written out why. One is Ty Gibson (an SDA), and the other is Greg Boyd (not an SDA). I quoted a little bit from Body. I can try to do so in more detail later on (perhaps tonight or tomorrow). I'm interested in seeing how his train of thought goes. It's interesting that he says the same thing Ellen White wrote, almost word for word, that all that we can know of God was revealed in Jesus Christ (interesting because he knows nothing of Ellen White, so arrived at this conclusion strictly from Scripture).
I thought of something else, having to do with a principle of how to consider these sorts of incidents, which I'll treat in a separate post.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#132102
03/25/11 05:13 PM
03/25/11 05:13 PM
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I fully understand your view Tom, in fact I fully agree with its actual declaration (i.e., ‘Jesus is the full revelation of God’), however, and just as it was in our prior discussion on the Tree of Life, I think you are artificially limiting the understanding here to actually what you understand from this. In the Tree of Life view (not to reopen that discussion), I believed both tangibly and spiritually that Life ultimately came from Jesus, however through an actual tangible process which He or the Father somehow literally/tangibly imparted to us through the River of Life that flowed from His throne and alimented the Tree of Life that was on its banks.
In this view, what you see as “exceptions”, I rather see as contributors to this view of Christ’s revelation. And thus, as He has expressed, I see that this, indeed, “ministry of wrath” (= (from the “Revelation of Jesus Christ”) Rev 15:1; cf. e.g, Rev 14:10, 19, 15:7; 16:1, 19; 19:15, among many other NT examples)) was demonstrated also by Jesus. However as His mission then was to establish the New Covenant, it was thus not fully executed, as in OT times, when justified, but it surely will be, as revealed in Revelation, when this New Covenant message has been fully and clearly revealed to the world. Persisting unbelievers then, even becoming a tangible threat to God’s people, as were many OT peoples, will then suffer this same wrath.
So in summary, the main problem that I see with your stance here, as with our prior conversation is that it is setting up eisegetical parameters to determine what the “full revelation of Christ is” rather than allowing the Bible, and here also, Jesus Himself, specify what it is.
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#132103
03/25/11 05:23 PM
03/25/11 05:23 PM
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Jesus put on hold His ‘ministry of wrath’ [as Mountain Man has said] and execution of due judgement God's wrath was clearly demonstrated by Jesus. It was beginning to be demonstrated in Gethsemane. It was replayed on the Cross.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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