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Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #132055
03/22/11 07:55 PM
03/22/11 07:55 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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I think when all of EGW statements that include the words of Job 38:7 are all taken into consideration, as they exegetically, duly should, it seems to me that EGW just blanketly, (i.e., non specifically) used/applied that phrase. Indeed as seen in her use of it in PP 65.3 to speak of the celebration for Christ’s First Advent. So she uses it to speak of the first day’s light, the completion of creation, the institution of the Sabbath (also around the time when Adam and Eve were created, and thus “married”). So she may not be making any specific timing claim when she uses it, but merely that this is what occurred at some point during creation week.

Perhaps, most possibly, it could have occurred repeatedly, i.e., with each new “good” and “very good” creative work of God, and so, as this is the only Biblical passage that makes any allusion to this rejoicing, she repeatedly applied to such applicable circumstance.

It is in this ‘multiple application’ sense that this passage could first have applied to angels and indeed other created humans from other worlds. Perhaps a convocation took place in Heaven for these other “sons of God” for them to witness the creation of our World.

“All the sons of God” could easily include “Adam and Eve”, and I further think that it could, gender inclusively, as normative in the OT, and spiritually speaking, with Adam (and Eve) representing the (potential, future) “sons of God” for this world and/or if Adam and Eve then represented ‘“all” of the “sons of God”’ (i.e., created humans) in the universe at that time if other worlds had not yet been created, indeed could only include Adam and Eve, in the celebrations for their post-creation events (Sabbath, (marriage), end of Creation Week). (It would be quite uncanny that this world would have been the very first one created and the only one to fall!)

So, in summary here, I see that the 4 SOP passages that you’ve cited that speak of “heavenly being” only refer to the “heavenly part” of the solely pertinent Biblical illustration of Creation celebrations found in Job 38:7, if other humans had not yet been created. However the other SOP passage which tie it to a Sabbath celebration, could, variously inclusively, (also) involve Adam and Eve.

The key here is to take everything into consideration on this “sons of God” topic in the Bible and SOP in order to arrived at an harmonize and reconcilable understanding, and not just based our understanding on 4 passages, especially when many others point to a wider understanding.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: kland] #132056
03/22/11 09:42 PM
03/22/11 09:42 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
NJK, wasn't there something about human beings being created, which were different from all other prior creation being created, in the likeness of God?

I personally don’t recall, nor have found, something like that in the SOP. Perhaps someone else knows of this statement. My internet-based search revealed nothing. (That would have also been “fodder” for her “knee-jerk” critics out there). (Perhaps you are confusing this with her infamous ‘amalgamation statement’?? (1SP 69.1; 78.2)). However here is what I see EGW saying about other worlds:

Originally Posted By: SOP EW 39.3
The Lord has given me a view of other worlds....to a place that was bright and glorious.... The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. The reply was, "We have lived in strict obedience to the commandments of God, and have not fallen by disobedience, like those on the earth."


It is also significant to me that EGW says here that wings had to be given to her to fly to this other world. Perhaps sort of a temporary jet pack consisting of powered wings. That all highlights to me that God’s diversity in creation, i.e., different from the basic template of a “human” figure, which actually, in God the Son, particularly, is indeed the “image and likeness of God”, is indeed out of a tangible necessity. Thus Angels/Beings who need to constantly fly around to other worlds have permanently been given wings. Or, as they seem to be able to lose them when taken on a strictly human (i.e., Earthly) form, it may actually be this sort of add-on “wings/jet pack”.

In other words, I do not see God’s created beings deviating from this main template of His actual “image/likeness” without a practical reason.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #132062
03/23/11 01:34 AM
03/23/11 01:34 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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NJK, according to the quotes below, it seems clear that humans were created after the inhabitants of all the other worlds were created:

Quote:
God's government included not only the inhabitants of Heaven, but of all the worlds that he had created; and Satan thought that if he could carry the angels of Heaven with him in rebellion, he could carry also the other worlds. {GC88 497.1}

In sparing the life of the first murderer, God presented before the whole universe a lesson bearing upon the great controversy. . . . It was His purpose, not merely to put down the rebellion, but to demonstrate to all the universe the nature of rebellion. . . .The holy inhabitants of other worlds were watching with the deepest interest the events taking place on the earth. . . . {LDE 30.1}

God carries with Him the sympathy and approval of the whole universe as step by step His great plan advances to its complete fulfillment.--PP 78, 79 (1890). {LDE 30.2}

The act of Christ in dying for the salvation of man would not only make heaven accessible to men, but before all the universe it would justify God and His son in their dealing with the rebellion of Satan.--PP 68, 69 (1890). {LDE 30.3}

The whole universe is watching with inexpressible interest the closing scenes of the great controversy between good and evil.--PK 148 (c. 1914). {LDE 30.4}

Our little world is the lesson book of the universe.--DA 19 (1898). {LDE 31.1}

The inhabitants of Heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear, rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages, Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of his law might forever be placed beyond all question. {GC88 498.3}

The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter him from carrying out his eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish his throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning; "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Therefore redemption was not an afterthought--a plan formulated after the fall of Adam--but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {ST, April 25, 1892 par. 1}

The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created and endowed with power to do the divine will. The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an after thought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing, not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. {ST, February 13, 1893 par. 3}

The severity of the conflict through which Christ passed was proportionate to the vastness of the interests involved in His success or failure. It was not merely the interests of one world that were at stake. This earth was the battle-field, but all the worlds that God has created would be affected by the result of the conflict. {ST, August 27, 1902 par. 7}

Man was created a free moral agent. Like the inhabitants of all other worlds, he must be subjected to the test of obedience; but he is never brought into such a position that yielding to evil becomes a matter of necessity. No temptation or trial is permitted to come to him which he is unable to resist. God made such ample provision that man need never have been defeated in the conflict with Satan. {FLB 82.2}

Our little world, under the curse of sin the one dark blot in His glorious creation, will be honored above all other worlds in the universe of God. {DA 26.3}

The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. The reply was, "We have lived in strict obedience to the commandments of God, and have not fallen by disobedience, like those on the earth." Then I saw two trees, one looked much like the tree of life in the city. The fruit of both looked beautiful, but of one they could not eat. They had power to eat of both, but were forbidden to eat of one. Then my attending angel said to me, "None in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat, they would fall." Then I was taken to a world which had seven moons. There I saw good old Enoch, who had been translated. On his right arm he bore a glorious palm, and on each leaf was written "Victory." Around his head was a dazzling white wreath, and leaves on the wreath, and in the middle of each leaf was written "Purity," and around the wreath were stones of various colors, that shone brighter than the stars, and cast a reflection upon the letters and magnified them. On the back part of his head was a bow that confined the wreath, and upon the bow was written "Holiness." Above the wreath was a lovely crown that shone brighter than the sun. I asked him if this was the place he was taken to from the earth. He said, "It is not; the city is my home, and I have come to visit this place." He moved about the place as if perfectly at home. I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, "You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God." {EW 39.3}

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #132068
03/23/11 11:09 AM
03/23/11 11:09 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Thanks for those SOP quotes Mountain Man. They also indicate to me that, at least, our Earth was not the first world to be created with other inhabitants, (which by the way, I also understand to be humans. As stated in my prior post, I see that all of God’s creation have this basic image/likeness-reflecting “human” template, with slight practical, even removable add-ons.)

So the “Sons of God” here could easily be those inhabitants of other worlds, perhaps representatively convened in Heaven to witness the Creation of this Earth. Still, for my reasons cited before, I see that Adam and Eve could have joined in this celebration following their own creation.

-Also in passing, as EGW exegetically wrongly cites Isa 46:10a as “knows” vs. the actual “declare” (significant difference here), though she (rightly, and perhaps knowingly) limits this to “God knowing His (own )works” (=Acts 15:18 KJV) (i.e., what He will do; - adding, perhaps definingly elsewhere “All His plans are perfect.” {OHC 251.3} = Isa 46:10b), and as also revealed in her own vision on the circumstances in Heaven surrounding the Fall (EW 149-153), though God surely knew of the possibility that Free Man could sin, and He also knew of exactly what it would take to redeem him, it was still a great struggle for both Him and Jesus to finalize this previously envisaged plan, perhaps just now, going over all of its intricate details, and agree to go through with it, because of the reality that the outcome of this “plan” was itself not known, as it entirely depended on the free will actions of people, including the then incarnated Christ.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #132073
03/23/11 04:28 PM
03/23/11 04:28 PM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
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Posts: 215
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I don't know, MM. I just read everything I had on Job/Angels and didn't find anything. Perhaps this is one of the things God said would be a mystery. I personally don't think it is a salvation issue.


Harold T.
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #132141
03/28/11 01:29 AM
03/28/11 01:29 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
SOP Quotes:
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter him from carrying out his eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish his throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning; "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Therefore redemption was not an afterthought--a plan formulated after the fall of Adam--but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {ST, April 25, 1892 par. 1}

The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created and endowed with power to do the divine will. The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an after thought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing, not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. {ST, February 13, 1893 par. 3}


Originally Posted By: SOP PP63.3
The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8)


Pertinent to this discussion, if the theological understanding of EGW that “the plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth” is all based upon her reading and manifest misunderstanding of Rev 13:8 (KJV), as strongly hinted by her linking “for” statement in PP 63.3, it could easily be disproven as the more accurate exegetical understanding of that passage is:

Originally Posted By: Rev 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, those whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb, who has (typologically) been slain away from/since (Greek = “apo”) [and not ‘before (Gr. “pro”)] the foundation of the world. (I.e., since the Fall, which was probably very close to “the foundation” of the world )


vs. the KJV’s:

Originally Posted By: Rev 13:8 KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


This ‘pre-fall establishment’ indeed seems to contradict EGW’s direct (i.e., ‘I was shown’ type) revelation on this in EW 149.2 which says:

Originally Posted By: SOP EW 149.2
Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and that world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with His Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and doubt, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.


So I am exegetically inclined to believe, contrary to what I had previously stated, that, though the possibility of the fall of man was surely known by God, the “way of escape” itself, i.e., the plan of salvation, may not have been drawn out until after the fall, as EGW directly saw in this vision.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #132142
03/28/11 03:24 PM
03/28/11 03:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK
. . . her reading and manifest misunderstanding of Rev 13:8 (KJV)

I see harmony in her statements above. The plan of salvation has existed from all eternity. God knew with absolute certainty men and angels would fall and that men would require redemption. In the case of angels "no provision had been made to save those who should venture to transgress His law (SR 18)." They had passed that point of being able to sin and repent.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #132144
03/28/11 04:28 PM
03/28/11 04:28 PM
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kland  Offline
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A plan could exist as a possibility of man's fall, but it doesn't require God to know with absolute certainty.

I make plans according to if this happens, or if that happens, or if some other thing happens. Plan A, B, C. That doesn't mean I know which of the three will happen nor if any will happen, but it means I am prepared if those three do happen. Don't you make similar plans?

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #132145
03/28/11 04:30 PM
03/28/11 04:30 PM
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In many points Mountain Man, I see that our difference of understanding stems from a difference in deeper Theological Views, however not in all. Point by point:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I see harmony in her statements above.


I think that the text of EGW statements vs. her ‘I was shown’ type vision are saying two completely different and irreconciable things. On one hand (statement) she claims ‘no afterthought’ and the other hand (vision) she saw actually relates ‘no thought’ or at the very least ‘no deliberation for a way of escape.’

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The plan of salvation has existed from all eternity.


That is part of EGW’s contradictory statements, which may be personal beliefs, which she was guilty of faultily making at times. She did not fully grasp, and thus rightly express, all of the compacted explicit and/or implicit theology she was shown in her visions.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
God knew with absolute certainty men and angels would fall and that men would require redemption.


I Theologically have a difference with an “absolute certainty” claim here as it goes against the Biblical View, as I and many others have seen it, on ”God and the Future”. I thus Biblically understand that God knew of such a “possibility” (i.e., not even a “probability”). He also may not even have chosen to plan ahead for this “possibility” especially given the harsh emotions that would be involved. So He just waited until it became a reality to deal with it, as this would not be a detriment to anyone.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
In the case of angels "no provision had been made to save those who should venture to transgress His law (SR 18)."...


(As shown in Alden Thompson book: Inspiration the expressed view of EGW on a chance of repentance for pointedly Lucifer (‘the one from which this sin and rebellion had originated’) changed with her own proper understanding of the Law. E.g., in 1SP 19, 20, 29 (1870) there is absolutely no hope for them because the Law of God is unforgiving; however 20 years later in PP 39 (1890) God Himself bears long with Lucifer and he is even given a chance at full reinstatement should he repent.)

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
...They had passed that point of being able to sin and repent.


It does not seem to me that these rebelling angels passed any God-established ‘point of no return’ but merely, decidedly chose of themselves to persist in their rebellion right through to their losing of the War that took place, thus thereby sealing their own utter rejection. Interestingly enough, EGW “no provision” statement (1SP 22.3) comes after Lucifer and these angels had resolutely decided to engage in this War (1SP 22.2). Any “repentance” now would not be of faith, as earlier, but merely in fear being physically defeat, and later of being expelled. So that is why their sin of rebellion could no longer be forgiven.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: kland] #132147
03/28/11 04:37 PM
03/28/11 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
A plan could exist as a possibility of man's fall, but it doesn't require God to know with absolute certainty.

I make plans according to if this happens, or if that happens, or if some other thing happens. Plan A, B, C. That doesn't mean I know which of the three will happen nor if any will happen, but it means I am prepared if those three do happen. Don't you make similar plans?

Though I Theologically agree with your conclusion kland, I think that it is incorrect to either have it established, or even be corroborated by how Man does something. God is clearly above ourselves as many Biblical passages show. The truth of this matter stems from the fact that, as Isa 46:9-11 states God “plans” the future according to His perfect Wisdom, i.e., what is best for the future development of this GC. (This is further developed in my blog post on: "God and the Future".


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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