When an atheists personally tells you, Tom, God does not exist, what do you, Tom, tell him?


You seem to think your interpretation is correct and that mine is wrong.

Paul said:



This states:

1.The wrath of God is revealed against *all* unrighteousness (so there are no exceptions, no people who forgotten what God has shown them).

2.The reason that all are without excuse for all unrighteousness is because they know of God, because God has shown them.

3.The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.


This is all present tense, MM, and all-encompassing. Paul is in no way limiting what he is saying. The invisible things of God from the creation of the world are clearly seen. By whom? By all. That's why all are without excuse.

They're not clearly seen some of the time, but all of the time, which is why the are not without excuse some of the time, but all of the time.

God's eternal power and Godhead is clearly seen from the things He has made, so all are without excuse.

What's the context here? If it's someone searching for truth, it's had to give a definitive answer here, as the Holy Spirit can lead in different ways, but my inclination would be to share the Plan of Salvation with such a person. Consider how Jesus dealt with Nicodemus or the woman at the well. Sometimes the objections people raise are not really what's in their heart.

I've been asking you to provide an interpretation.

Here's the Romans 1 passage:



What's your interpretation of this?

When the SOP says that one cannot do good works except there be power from outside oneself, what's your interpretation of this?

Tom, have you ever witnessed to an atheist?

I believe Romans 1:18-21 makes it clear that people "who hold the truth in unrighteousness" are "without excuse."

I believe the SOP makes it clear only people who experience rebirth, receive a new heart, abide in Jesus, and partake of the divine nature can perform good works that honor and glorify God.

MM, how would you imagine Paul saying it if he wanted to mean that what is known of God is known to all because God has manifested Himself to them?

That's what he said.

I went to a secular liberal arts college before becoming an Adventist, so yes.



Yes, but why? According to the passage it's because what can be know of God is known by them because God has shown them. This is why they are obligated to glorify God and give Him thanks.

I don't think the import of this last point is being grasped. It's not simply that people know God exist, but they actually know something about His character. Otherwise they would be under no obligation to glorify Him or give Him thanks.



Well, this is a new point, which hasn't been discussed to this point. I disagree with your assertion, given how you define "experience rebirth," which, as I recall, involves a catch-22 type thing where such a person is already doing everything correctly (i.e., doing "everything that Jesus commanded," as you put it). So now, in our time, according to your definition, no person not keeping Sabbath could do any good work which honors and glorifies God.

I readily admit I may be misunderstanding what you've said, so invite you to clarify. Perhaps you make an exception for Sunday-keepers who have never heard about Sabbath? But if I recall correctly, you don't believe such people have experienced rebirth. I'm pretty sure I'm correctly remembering what you've said.

Anyway, the point I've been making is that no one can do good works without a power outside of themselves.

You're going to have to help me out here. Because, I thought that's what Tom said. Do you agree with Tom?

What does the following mean to you:

Would Luther fit that description?