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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132182
03/30/11 01:56 AM
03/30/11 01:56 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Quote:
Tom: ...There's a reason God has made the decisions that He has made, choosing to allow certain things to happen (like the Holocaust, for example)...

MM: What were Jesus' options in cases like the Holocaust?


Contrary to common belief, and though I am extremely sympathetic to the Jews for this “Calamity” that they suffered at the hands of the Nazi, it really is no less different than any cause of mass, non-natural dying in our world. Over 20 million Russians lost their lives in WWII. Why isn’t the same question asked for them. I.e., what was God’s “purpose” in that. I think it all stems from a trace/underlying belief that God is still actively and directly, specially working for the Jewish Nation, His former “Chosen People,” which I do not see any Biblical support for such. Even SDA’s (e.g., Doug Batchelor) have this view, even seeing the reestablishment of Israel in 1948 as the fulfillment of Bible Prophecies (e.g., Ezek 37:11-14; Luke 21:24). So I do not see this, though atrocious calamity as being any different than e.g., why Soviet -styled Communist regimed murdered millions of their own citizen, why over 130,000 Japanese were murdered by American nuclear bombs, why there are 65,000,000+ abortions per year today, among many other such historical and current examples that could be listed here. I.e., it is all the result of man acting hatefully and murderously against their fellow man, and God equally allows all of this to occur, perhaps to allow the consequences of sin to take their course, which simultaneously show that living according to His ways are the better options to follow.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #132183
03/30/11 02:40 AM
03/30/11 02:40 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
I was thinking about the flood. If it was true, that God sent the flood, etc. to destroy people when He gets upset at them, or make a point with others as in you'd better not do that if you don't want to get what Joe got, then why did he flood the earth?


Gen 6:5, 11, 12 - God brought the flood to destroy all flesh (man and beast) on the earth because all flesh had become irreparably corrupt and violent on the earth. That is also why capital punishment was instituted immediately after the Flood (Gen 9:5, 6), in order to serve a deterrent from conditions getting that wholly murderous and violent in the future. The use of Flooding Water vs. fire, was the best way to achieve this destruction while not destroying the earth to a point where it became inhabitable and would require a re-Creation to be habitable, as will be the case from the comparable Second coming’s, Fire destruction.

Originally Posted By: kland
The ones who drowned, weren't alive to get the benefits from the punishment,


I think it should be easy to readily, logically comprehend that adjudged capital judgement/punishment for their life of murder and violence was being executed. So no benefit for them was at all considered here.

Originally Posted By: kland
and the righteous who He didn't destroy, why did they have to suffer from the results of the destruction?


As EGW states in PP 107.4, a “Third Curse “ occurred with the Flood from the necessity to healthily bury all of the dead bodies strewn about the earth. Much of the destruction to the Earth surface, including burying mineral treasures, occurred at that point. So, all things considered, the eight righteous then, and us today, only got the lesser of two evils. Making man work harder to live also serves to limit the level and extent of sinfulness that they engage in when they have too much leisure time on their hand, and physically non-demanding work to do otherwise.

For one thing, whether a limited blessing, but probably a curse, given the other persuable renewable energy alternatives, coal and crude oil was produced by the flood as stated by EGW in PP 108.2.

Originally Posted By: kland
And if he destroyed the earth and climate just to serve as a heading off means for the righteous remaining, why wouldn't He do something to stop the Holocaust?


For the exact same reason, as I explained previously, why God did not intervene in many other instances when even innocent, bystanding civilians and people were unjustly being murdered. It is just the outworking of sin and all the direct actions of man. Again, God did not have any obligation, i.e., anymore, to defend the Jews in anyway.

This question of Why didn’t God... however can be asked of the hundreds of millions of faithful people who were martyred by e.g., pagan and then papal Rome. (Indeed cf. Rev 6:9-11). However it can here be Spiritually seen that their martyrdom probably has served to produce a much stronger and faithful crop of Christians today who remain faithful when they face much lessor oppositions.

Also the systematic and Militaristic atrocity of the Holocaust probably served to prevent similar and worst atrocities in the future, however as seen in e.g., Communist Regimes, Darfur, Rwanda, [and, relatedly, also Abortions] only when those who can do something (i.e., (militaristically) capable world powers) choose to do what it right and intervene in behalf of those being murdered. (And as much as I had to say it, the atomic bombings in WWII probably prevented the Cold War from ever getting “Hot” and producing a greater Nuclear Weapons utilization right through our current days.)

Originally Posted By: kland
And a bigger question is, if He destroyed the earth to serve as some example, why did He promise not to do it again?


Perhaps God saw that, in the scheduled remaining time of the GC and given the state of destruction now, there quite foreseeable would not be a need for such a destruction again, which was probably all due to the combination of man then living hundreds of years and also have a relatively quite easeful and comfortable life and readily abundant livelihood. But with man’s life being curtailed after the Flood and life becoming much more demanding, God presciently foresaw that He would not have such a need until the GC was ended, at the Second Coming. And also, so as not to have people do His will simply out of a fear of bringing about another Flood, He expressedly removed that threat of punishment, with the threat of the Second Coming destruction not being mentioned until the time of the New Covenant. The rainbow also served to remove this fear. (Cf. PP 106.1) So man, especially “Atheistic man” was again free of any external influence to freely choose to follow God or not, or else every rain fall would produce a spurious and insincere mass repentance around the earth.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Green Cochoa] #132184
03/30/11 04:28 AM
03/30/11 04:28 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Tom
So the principle that all that we need to know of God, or can know of God, was revealed in the life and character of His Son during His earthly ministry is false.


Yes, Tom, that principle is false. It has come from the great book of "Tom Says," and not from an inspired source. Mrs. White never says what you say here, despite your tenacious ideas about what you think she has said.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


False? Really?

Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}


John 14:9 AKJV Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #132185
03/30/11 05:10 AM
03/30/11 05:10 AM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Tom says, God does not use force.
EGW agrees...

Originally Posted By: EGW
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #132186
03/30/11 05:31 AM
03/30/11 05:31 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Laval, Quebec
For God to use force to ‘lighten the gloomy shadows caused by Satan’s deceptive power so that the world might be brought back to Him’ is indeed contrary to His Government which is indeed based on actual “Love”. Indeed as EGW says: “This could not be done by force.” However, that God has used non-“natural” force of various adequate Earth’s elements, or even influence peoples, in order to bring about a certain, adjudged consequence for rebellious sin, -again not to compel anyone, but to execute this judgement, is copious attested throughout the Bible, both NT and OT, -with the Father, Son and through God’s Spirit.

Those two notion of Divine Force, with the first one not even being an ‘actuality’ (i.e., ‘something feasible’) should rightly, duly be kept distinct in this discussion, and not incorrectly conflated.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #132187
03/30/11 06:21 AM
03/30/11 06:21 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
False? Really?

Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}


John 14:9 AKJV Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?

And who did Abraham see?

When did Jesus become "alive?" Did He truly live only 33 years?

You see, the subtle switch here is from the word "character" to "ministry," implying only those 3.5 years of Jesus' principal work while incarnate upon this earth. That is what invalidates the "inspiration" of Tom's statement, and which has no backing in Mrs. White's writings nor those of the Bible.

If you can find one single statement from Mrs. White where she says what Tom said, then I might adjust my own view on this matter. Until then, I am careful to understand what she expressly said, and not what someone else thinks she said or should have said instead.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #132188
03/30/11 06:23 AM
03/30/11 06:23 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Tom says, God does not use force.
EGW agrees...

Originally Posted By: EGW
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}


Notice the context for this statement. It is in terms of "commanding." It is not in terms of what God may or may not choose to do in terms of actions against sinners who have passed the threshold of His patience.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132189
03/30/11 01:44 PM
03/30/11 01:44 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: NJK

I think it should be easy to readily, logically comprehend that adjudged capital judgement/punishment for their life of murder and violence was being executed. So no benefit for them was at all considered here.
You just spoke about wars, holocausts, bombings and say God just lets things happen, but now in the next breath you say capital punishment is needed?!

Quote:
Making man work harder to live also serves to limit the level and extent of sinfulness that they engage in when they have too much leisure time on their hand, and physically non-demanding work to do otherwise.
Would you say God made a mistake and now had to make people to work harder? How is that working out?

Quote:
God presciently foresaw that He would not have such a need until the GC was ended, at the Second Coming. And also, so as not to have people do His will simply out of a fear of bringing about another Flood, He expressedly removed that threat of punishment, with the threat of the Second Coming destruction not being mentioned until the time of the New Covenant.
Ummmm. Something's not making sense here.
Capital punishment needed. But don't want people to fear me. But yet want them to fear a greater punishment.
Huh?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Green Cochoa] #132190
03/30/11 01:46 PM
03/30/11 01:46 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Notice the context for this statement. It is in terms of "commanding." It is not in terms of what God may or may not choose to do in terms of actions against sinners who have passed the threshold of His patience.
Would you prefer, "coerced"?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #132191
03/30/11 02:18 PM
03/30/11 02:18 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Quote:
He took old truths, of which he himself was the originator, and placed them before his hearers in heaven's own light. And how different was their representation! What a flood of meaning, and brightness, and spirituality was brought in by their explanation! {RH, July 12, 1898 par. 1}
Does this mean Jesus whitewashed the inconvenient truth? That is, did he present people killing each other as being just and therefore everyone received brightness and spirituality from that flood of meaning?

Quote:
Christ set forth deeper and more spiritual truths than had ever before been heard from rulers, scribes, or elders. "I am the way, the truth, and the life," he declared. The rich treasures of truth opened before the people attracted and charmed them. They were in marked contrast with the spiritless, lifeless expositions of the Old Testament Scriptures by the rabbis. And the miracles which Jesus wrought kept constantly before his hearers the honor and glory of God. He seemed to them a messenger direct from heaven; for he spoke not to their ears only, but to their hearts. As he stood forth in his humility, yet in dignity and majesty, as one born to command, a power attended him; hearts were melted into tenderness. An earnest desire was created to be in his presence, to listen to the voice of him who uttered truth with such solemn melody. {RH, July 12, 1898 par. 2}
Does this mean Jesus explained the killings of the Old Testament that they were right and just and that Jesus came to explain how that fit perfectly with God's character and the listeners then said, Wow, I am charmed and my heart melts into tenderness. I have an earnest desire to be next to you so I can hear how the killings were so just.

Quote:
Every miracle wrought by Christ convinced some of his true character. Had a man in the common walks of life done the same works that Christ did, all would have declared that he was working by the power of God. But there were those who did not receive the light of heaven, and they set themselves more determinedly against this evidence. {RH, July 12, 1898 par. 4}
Is healing the sick in some way supporting the killings, that is showing God's true character?

And were the rulers, scribes, and elders upset because Jesus justified the killings and explained how good they were by his works? Is that why they killed Him? In what way were the leaders disagreeing with how Jesus presented God's true character of the killings?

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