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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #132277
04/01/11 11:11 PM
04/01/11 11:11 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: NJK
As see that EGW further explains that the multiple falls were from stemming from a combination of wrong habits, immoral practices and violations of physical laws.
Yes. And these led to physical changes, and further degradation.
Originally Posted By: NJK
It thus seems to me that this “intimate relation” is reciprocal and that a mental moral degeneration through the entertaining and practice of sin tangibly affects the body, possibly recoding one’s DNA.
No question, the mind affects the body. But there is no science that shows the mind can create all the chaos we see in the DNA. Epigenetics greatly affects offspring, but epigenetic does not constitute changes in the underlying DNA base pairs, it changes the expression of those genes. But we see more in the DNA, destruction of genes, and this by transposable genetic elements. And these affects all life forms. You can not explain this by a thought pattern in man.

You also make the jump that eating the fruit would have maintained perfect health. The fruit of the tree of life could have preserved life. But what kind of life? A life of sin and misery. "For earth's sin and misery the gospel is the only antidote.{MH 141.2}" What Christ achieved, was the only antidote. The physical tree of life could not undo all the damage.

As to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the evidence is there right after the eating of a physical change. They knew there were naked, the robe of light was gone. A physical change had occurred. And yes, their attitudes changed. Adam who transgressed because of his love for Eve, was ready to accuse her of his change. (also see 1SP41) "Satan trembled as he viewed his work. {SR 26.1}" Was this work just in his mind? "He [Satan] shuddered at the thought of plunging the holy, happy pair into the misery and remorse he was himself enduring.{1SP 32.1}" Was this just being barred from the tree of life? No, this is what a life a sin produces, and the physical tree of life would only perpetuate this, not cure it.


I’ve been down that "circular" road with you before APL, I am personally satisfied that my understanding of what the Fruit of Life can do based on the Bible is comprehensive and accurate enough. Again I see that since you are working from a hypothesis, you are putting the cart before the oxen, by making arguments from that unproven hypothesis. Again, I see your “miracle” coding corrupting found in the absence of the Fruit of Life’s supernatural power.

Notwithstanding, here are few passing observation. Can man live perpetually without also having perfect health? In other words, if the physical body is never damaged beyond repair, including the healing of wounds, then how would a life of misery occur. The bodies immune system, when working perfectly is design to heal most, if not all wounds and damages. Surgery can even help that process.

I believe that all that Jesus provides for fallen man when redeemed will be found in the ingredients he and/or the father will be injecting in the Water of Life for the Tree.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132279
04/02/11 04:38 AM
04/02/11 04:38 AM
APL  Offline
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Yes NJK - I know where you are coming from. Andrews University Seminary. Stefanovic views the Revelation 8-11 as God's response to the prays of the martyrs. (See Stefanovic, Revelation, page 277). On the final plagues, Stefanovic writes,
Originally Posted By: Stefanovic, Revelation, p 470
Why then is the execution of the last plagues necessary? The reason is found in the underlying theme of the book of Revelation: the wicked must face the righteous judgments of God. In the scene of the opening of the fifth seal, the martyred saints cry out for vindication. Their cry symbolizes the perennial plea of God’s people throughout history for deliverance from rebellious humanity. It is now in the pouring out of God’s final wrath that the prayers of God’s oppressed people are being answered. The wicked must experience the righteous judgments which are appropriate to their sins (cf. Rev. 16:5-7).
Really? Does God have to execute judgments like this? Are the 7 last plagues brought on by God? If the book of Revelation about judgements against man? Or is the book of Revelation a revealing of sin and its effects? Reading you NJK, I think you agree with Stefanovic. So how does this jive with Matt 5:38-48? How does your view jive with DA759 which you did not address? I'm sorry if I do not see your "plain" and "convincing" view.





Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: APL
NJK, I've read a number of things on your website. I've read this thread. I've read your plain statement, that this was a battle of brute strength. The Desire of Ages quote addresses this very clearly. Was the devil "compelled" to leave heaven under your paradigm, by force? You say yes. The devils know who has the power, and they tremble. (James 2:19). It is not a question of power.


Come on APL.... Is that a serious answer?? That semi-vexatious, peripheral, and thus, at least, effectively, obfuscating retort does not begin to pertinently prove anything. Again, did you read that particular linked blog post??! My detailed records still strongly indicate “no.” You can read all the 43 other posts currently on my blog, but if you have not read that one, you won’t know what I am referring to.

My, indeed, ‘plain, (and/been convinced), statement’ is based on the unequivocal SOP quotes cited there and thus my view is Biblical. (If, however, you are outrightly citing James 2:19 in blind opposition to whatever EGW may have said, then that’s a different story. However here statements there were I was shown’ type of statements.)


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #132280
04/02/11 05:38 AM
04/02/11 05:38 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Laval, Quebec
Uhhh.... Just to factually and substantively correct you here, APL:
(1) I did not go to the AU Seminary, or any SDA Seminary. I just took ca. 2 years of undergraduate Theology classes at Andrews.

(2) If you had read my experience on my blog, see in this post, particularly dealing with my days at Andrews you would see that I do not give default deference to even/especially AU professors.

(3) Just surfacely reading what you quoted from Stefanovic, and being familiar with his other publication on interpretations/application in Revelation, I am not impress by the quality of his exegesis in general nor here. So I do not see how he makes that application and conclusion. I rather see that the 7 Trumpets delineate the Militant Work of the Church. It runs concurrent with the 7 Seals of which this Fifth Seal is part. However I do structurally see that the Fifth Seal corresponds with the Fifth Trumpet and in Church History it was indeed the militant work of Muslims against the Catholic Church that diverted the persecutions that were being carried out against God’s faithful people. That is how Martin Luther was able to be left alone and continue with his work of reforms.

(4) EGW states this about the 7 Last Plagues:

Originally Posted By: SOP GC 628, 629
These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy. {GC 628.2}
In that day, multitudes will desire the shelter of God's mercy which they have so long despised.


-Sounds indeed like justified and deserving, Divine ‘wrathful’ judgements to me.

(5) You are wrongly trying to put the whole book of Revelation in one box. That part of the book of Revelation (ch. 15 & 16) deals with God’s judgements on those who have made their allegiance with the Beast Powers.

(6) I have already, partially addressed Matt 5:38-42 earlier in this discussion. Succinctly said, these are instructions against an “evil” person (vs. 39b) -not to ‘“resistively” confront them’ (Greek: #436 anti-isthemi: ‘come to “stand/be established against = (‘in the place of’)’). Vss. 43-48 are instructions to love our enemies. I understand this as not being vindictively hateful against those who hate us but do good to them by loving them, thus heaping coals on their heads. That however does not mean to be a pushover or a doormat and let people abuse us. Christ does not condemn using justice to protect us from such unwarranted attacks and treatments when possible. That however does not mean that you hate the person, or should hate them.

(7) I have not address DA 759 because knowing what I know from the SOP, I understand it to not be applicable to the actual fighting that took place in Heaven. Only to the convincing aspects of that conflict. How can you “see” my plain view if you still have not bothered to read it on my blog??? I am not responsible for this decision of yours!


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132281
04/02/11 01:18 PM
04/02/11 01:18 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: NJK
-Sounds indeed like justified and deserving, Divine ‘wrathful’ judgements to me.
Romans 1 describes God's wrath. I gave other examples from the OT previously. I see your view of God's wrath as something actively inflicted on the deserving sinner. The other view is that God's judgment is that there is nothing more that can be done, and stops His intervention (without mercy) and lets the sinner go to reap the natural consequence of his sin. The wages of sin is death, not execution by God.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #132284
04/02/11 04:01 PM
04/02/11 04:01 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
NJK:With all due respect, I baffledly hold a potential LOL laughter because I do not see how SDA’s commonly make this “wishful thinking” statement. I have exegetically dealt with this issue head on in my blog. See this post. As clearly stated in the SOP, the war in Heaven was a show of brute physical strength, even more than the resulting, forceful expulsion of the losing party.


Quote:
APL:Talk about suppressing LOL!!! The war was about brute strength??? I don't think so.


There's also the statement from "It Is Finished," which NJK quoted himself:

Quote:
Could one sin have been found in Christ, had He in one particular yielded to Satan to escape the terrible torture, the enemy of God and man would have triumphed. Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 761)


Satan was cast down not by physical force, but by weight of evidence. That's the only this war could ever be won. From beginning to end, it's a war that's won by revealing the truth. When the revelation is seen and believed by all, then the war is won, and the Great Controversy is over. (Lest "believed by all" be misunderstood, I don't mean in a salvific sense, but in the sense described in the last chapter of "The Great Controversy," that all recognize that what God has been asserting is correct.)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132285
04/02/11 04:03 PM
04/02/11 04:03 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
I think this is the right way of looking at this, especially in conjunction with the comments from GC 35-37.
---
...It's not that God destroys people because He gets angry at them, but there are rules of engagement, and if there is no one to intercede, or not enough interest in righteousness, I suppose one could put it, then God withdraws, and allows the destroyer to do his work.


I appreciate the exposition/view seconding/recognizing Tom, however I do not see that, nor how, it is complimented by GC 35-37 or the view that ‘God always does destructions indirectly, through a third-party’. I do not see that latter view as being taught in the Bible. As far as I know, no indication is made in the Bible or SOP as tho how God would have effectuated this destruction.


GC 35-37 explains this in great detail.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132286
04/02/11 04:13 PM
04/02/11 04:13 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
T:Combining your insight with this one, what we see is that the Great Controversy is a real war....

NJK:It’s confusing to me how you see the GC as a “real war” here but not the war in heaven??


It's the same war! Note the explanation in DA 761 that Satan was "cast down" when the truth regarding his character was seen, and he lost his influence. The Great Controversy is a war of ideas, a war of truth, a war which God wins by revelation. It's not a war that can be won by physical force, and, indeed, there are a number of statements which specifically tell us that compelling power is only to be found under the government of the enemy, that force is contrary to the principles of God's government.

What we have is the enemy

1.Stating that physical force is a principle of God's government, and that God uses coercion to get His way.
2.Uses physical force and coercion himself to get his way.

Whereas God

1.States that physical force is not a principle of His government, and that He does not use coercion to get His way.
2.Does not use coercion to get His way.
3.Asserts that the enemy does these things.

Yes, despite this, most Christians agree with the enemy! For example, consider the plagues in Egypt. What do most Christians think happened here? They think that God applied more and more force until he forced Pharaoh to do what He wanted Him to do. Like the mafioso who wants protection money, and breaks a window of a store-owners shop. He suggests the payment of protection money would prevent such "accidents" from occurring. If the payment is refused, the "accidents" get worse and worse, until the store-owner finally capitulates. This is how God is viewed as behaving.

Another example the SOP speaks of was the church during the period of colonization. The church would come in with gifts of healing and kind words, but if there was opposition, the sword was right there to make things happen.

We're dealing with a question of principles and character. Does "might make right"? Is coercion OK?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132287
04/02/11 04:29 PM
04/02/11 04:29 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
So the Full GC is to demonstrate exactly why this indeed should not be and lawless people should be eternally put to death. So the issue may go way beyond simply the effects of sin. In other words, how would sinners be if God had not prevent them from living forever.


But this is precisely demonstrating the effects of sin! How sinners would be if God allowed them to live forever is exactly demonstrating what sin would cause.

You write here "if God had not prevented them from living forever," which implies that God's creatures have life in themselves, which they don't.

Quote:
God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. (DA 764)


Quote:
The GC is probably to demonstrate that even good sinners,


"Good sinners"? That's an oxymoron, if ever there was one.

Quote:
including Christians who only are breaking the fourth commandment, ultimately have no case for this implicated and more subtle version of lawlessness. So this GC is to demonstrate that lawlessness has no redeemable values and that was first demonstrated by the Antedelluvians, the at the Cross and in the future, with the last generation of people who will all be, either by force or by beliefs Sunday Keeping Christians.


This is again precisely what you're saying above it is not, which is to demonstrate the effect of sin.

I wanted to comment on one more thing. Quoting again from above:

Quote:
So the Full GC is to demonstrate exactly why this indeed should not be and lawless people should be eternally put to death.


From DA 764:

Quote:
. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.


This speaks of being "left to reap the full result of their sin," and it is again explain that their perishing is "the inevitable result of sin," but this would not have been apparent to heavenly beings. Of course if God puts people to death, what I've just quoted here doesn't make sense, because there's no ground for misunderstanding if God puts people to death.

To make this point clear, the quote says:

1.God could have left Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, and they would have perished.
2.But had He done so, it would not have been apparent that their perishing was the inevitable result of sin.

Now if Satan and his followers perish because God puts them to death, this doesn't make any sense. We would have this:

1.God could have left Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, by putting them to death, and they would have perished.
2.But had He done so, it would not have been apparent that their perishing was the inevitable result of sin.

Of course it wouldn't be apparent that their perishing was the inevitable result of sin, because it wouldn't be true! Their perishing would be the inevitable result of God's putting them to death.

The problem I see in your explanation is that it in not way follows what is said in DA 764. You have a theory of what will happen, and what DA 764 actually says is glossed over. Your idea is a reasonable one, which many have, which is that God must put sinners to death for the good of the universe. This can't happen too soon, because if God did this too soon, it wouldn't be apparent that God was acting in justice. It would appear to be an arbitrary act of power.

The problem is that DA 764 doesn't argue that God is just in executing sinners, but that their death is not due to an arbitrary act of power on His power, but instead is the result of their own choice. Your theory, although a reasonable one, from the standpoint of ordinary logic, in no way corresponds to what she actually says.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132288
04/02/11 04:30 PM
04/02/11 04:30 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
T:One thing we know is that our prayers have a lot to do with God's decisions, which is an awesome thing.

NJK:To me this point is only true if the future actually does not already exist, contrary to what the Classical View of Foreknowledge claims, otherwise our praying would not be making any difference at all but just be what we were always going to do anyways. So we would simply be ‘going through the motions.’


We agree on this point.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132289
04/02/11 04:34 PM
04/02/11 04:34 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
That is indeed what I am saying APL and I believe I have stated satisfactory, though circumstantial evidence, just as your Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil direct inject view is, (also being based on a still not proven hypothesis). If man kept his perfection and health by the eating of the fruit of Life, then I see it as most sequitur and logical that that fruit and its supernatural powers was already internally preventing something harmful from ever starting to take place. If the imperfection and even genetic corruption was not self-containedly possible within man himself then there would be no need to eat of the Fruit of Life.


Even if we assumed that the Tree of Life was 100% effective in its ability to cure the effects of sin, which is a tall assumption, there is still the problem of violence. Sinners wouldn't live forever, because they would kill other sinners, and this level of violence was reached in only a couple of generations. What would happen in eternity? Eventually only one would survive, like the Highlander. "There can only be one." Such is the nature of sin. Kill your enemies, until you're the only one left.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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