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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132367
04/05/11 01:38 PM
04/05/11 01:38 PM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK
I appreciate your effort to clarify/justify your position Tom, however I can only see that this blaming of my statements on, effectively, ‘a mind-set that is not in the Bible’ is further not justified, and is indeed due to you not having a due, harmonized understanding of such seemingly divergent Scriptures/SOP statements.


Everybody is impacted by their mind-set/paradigm. This is a chief pillar of the exegetical method. Why would you think this doesn't apply to yourself?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132368
04/05/11 01:55 PM
04/05/11 01:55 PM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK
First of all, where in Scripture is the destruction event of Jerusalem recorded?? It is only from the SOP account and Josephus that we have an account of that event.


It is in Scripture, and I quoted it for you.

Quote:
What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.(Mark 12)


Quote:
When the King heard what had been done, he was very angry, and sent out his army to destroy the murderers, and burn up their city.(Matt. 22)


Quote:
T:Indeed, it sounds like this to you, but not to me, or APL, or kland, or many others. Why doesn't it sound like this to us, but it does to you? Because your mind-set is different than ours.

NJK:Indeed I similarly ask to you all: Why??! Perhaps the above “exhaustively comprehensive, harmonized” thus “proper” exegesis can help you answer this “why” here and also understand what the Biblical “mind-set” actually is.


Not at all. Your response was one of reaction. You didn't investigate what was happening, but merely read a text, and replied, "this sounds like such and such to me."

When you see certain statements, they immediately strike you a certain way. You then investigate if you think the way they strike you is what you think is correct.

My question was directed towards why the given statement strikes you in a certain way in the first place. It's because of your mind-set/paradigm, the same as for everyone else.

Quote:
You also, at least effectively, spuriously and falsely keep on trying to make me say that I think and say that: ‘I believe/think that violence/killing/coercion/use of force to get ones way/etc is part of God's character and what He does.’ Instead of speculating on what you think I think/believe quote me where I supposedly said this.


Why don't you start please? That is, please quote what specifically it is I'm saying here that you're taking exception to, and I'll look for evidence to support what I've asserted. What you quoted, that you are responding to, is this:

Quote:
Someone who views violence/killing/coercion/use of force to get ones way/etc. as contrary to God's character, sees something different happening.


Since you're reacting against *this* statement, which doesn't mention you at all, is it correct for me to understand that you wish to assert that you are a part of this group? In other words, you see yourself as believing that God doesn't use violence/killing/coercion/use of force to get His way? If this is what you wish to assert, simply say so please, and if I disagree with your assertion, I'll look for evidence to support why.

Quote:
As I said, and shown in this response, your first need to engage in more substantively sound and deep exegesis, which shouldn’t be too hard for you a seminarian. That will, or should demonstrate what the Biblical mindset is, and there is only one, God is not dividable nor divided. That has been a foundational exegetical tenet of mine for now over 13 years and you’ll be shock how many Biblical statements, including in the SOP, that are harmonized into a full congruent truth, if not just rightly corrected, when this claim of “having a paradigm” is left out, letting the texts speak for themselves and state what the full view should be. So the Bible and SOP will not (normatively) contradict each other; and if they do, as they indeed, substantively do at times, then, as EGW counsels, the Bible is the final arbitrator.


We're all doing this. We just use different foundational statements upon which to harmonize the others.

For example, you believe that God's primary characteristic is His power. I believe it's His love.

As another example, I believe that the primary revelation of God's character is Jesus Christ. I believe that all that we can know of God was revealed by Him. Therefore I don't need to go outside of Jesus Christ to know or understand God. This is an important foundational principle which I use in attempting to harmonize Scriptural statements, or statements by the SOP.

So we both agree that Scripture should harmonize with itself, as well as the SOP (should harmonize with itself, and Scripture), but disagree on what the foundational principles should be upon which to attempt the harmonization.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #132369
04/05/11 03:35 PM
04/05/11 03:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
K: NJK, is killing part of God's character?

N: Because God is Just in his character, judicious killing harmonizes with how He sees best to deal with the sin problem. The Theodicy Truth here is not determined by what I need my God to be, but what He has revealed and done in the Bible. God never acts out of Character as that would itself be sin, since He/His Character is already and unimprovingly perfect.

K: Would you say the only difference between God's character and satan's character (regarding killing), is that God's killing is considered "judicious" while satan's killing is not?

When Jesus withdraws His protection and gives Satan permission to kill sinners, because "they are worthy" (Rev 16:6), are we to assume Satan is acting injudiciously? Is he not, after all, acting in harmony with Jesus' will? If Satan were to refuse to mete out justice on Jesus' behalf who, pray tell, would punish the wicked? What good is law if no one is willing to enforce it? "God has a right to enforce the penalty of the law upon transgressors, for law without a penalty would be without force." {ST, July 14, 1890 par. 2}

"By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors. Again and again men commit sin, and yet they do not seem to believe that they must suffer the penalty for breaking the law." {6BC 1095.4} "God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law." {GC 539.3} "The penalty for the least transgression of that law is death, and but for Christ, the sinner's Advocate, it would be summarily visited on every offender." {TDG 246.1}

Do you agree Jesus is required, by law, to execute justice and judgment, to punish the wicked according to their words and works? If so, do you believe it falls to Satan to punish them? If so, what if Satan refused to do it, who would administer the "ministry of wrath" on Jesus' behalf?

Quote:
With unerring accuracy, the Infinite One keeps a record of the impiety of nations and individuals. Long is his mercy tendered to them, with calls to repentance; but when their guilt reaches a certain limit, which he has fixed, then mercy ceases her pleadings, and the ministration of wrath begins. {LP 318.1}

This penalty Christ bore for the sins of the transgressor. He has borne the punishment for every man, and for this reason He can ransom every soul, however fallen his condition, if he will accept the law of God as his standard of righteousness. The cry of despair from the soul calls forth the tenderest love of God, and this is salvation to every one that believes. He who sees the guilt of his transgression, and understands the infinite sacrifice made in his behalf, will not continue in sin. But if men continue to resist light and evidence, they will cut themselves off from God's mercy, and then will come the ministry of wrath. God can not save the sinner in his sin. The love of God is immeasurable to those who repent, but His justice is firm and uncompromising to those who abuse his long-suffering love. {ST, November 15, 1899 par. 6}

Jesus earned the right on the cross to pardon and save penitent sinners. "For this reason He can ransom every soul." He saves them from the penalty of transgression, that is, intense emotional and physical suffering eventually ending in eternal death.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132370
04/05/11 04:30 PM
04/05/11 04:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: She clearly says God was testing, proving Moses. Which plainly means He did not intend to destroy Israel.

T: There are other incidents in Scripture where this very thing happened. For example, God looked for someone to repair the breach of the wall. If He had found someone, things could have been different. In Moses, He did find someone, and things were different.

M: To what purpose was God testing, proving Moses?

T: To the end of revealing His character.

What attribute of character did Jesus reveal when He told Moses to let Him destroy Israel?

Also, what would have qualified as passing the test – letting Jesus destroy Israel or not letting Him destroy Israel? Would Moses have passed the test if he had let Jesus destroy Israel? And, would Jesus have passed the test if He had destroyed Israel?

“Let Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation."

Quote:
M: Otherwise, if Moses had failed the test and God had destroyed Israel, it implies God would have raised up a nation through a man who failed the test of his faithfulness.

T: It does imply that. But people have failed tests of faithfulness and gone on to be great followers of God, of which Abraham, the very father of the people whom were discussing, is an example. The reason Israel wasn't destroyed was because of Moses' intercession. God wasn't kidding.

M: Why would God destroy a nation fathered by a failure only to replace it by another father of failure? “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

T: Any nation founded by any human being, other than the man Jesus Christ, is going to be founded upon someone flawed.

Which begs the question – Why destroy Israel and start over with Moses? How is that not “insane” (see definition above)?

Quote:
M: Also, why did God need Moses' permission to destroy Israel?

T: I don't understand why you're asking this. That is, why do you think God needed Moses' permission?

Because Jesus asked Moses to “let” Him destroy Israel.

Quote:
M: "If God had purposed to destroy Israel, who could plead for them?" Her use of the word "if" implies it was not God's intention to destroy Israel.

T: What's the context here? Just taking a single sentence, or portion of a sentence, isn't a good way of ascertaining what's going on, IMO.

It’s part of the quote you omitted when you responded to it. Here it is again:

Quote:
God's covenant with His people had been disannulled, and He declared to Moses, "Let Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation." The people of Israel, especially the mixed multitude, would be constantly disposed to rebel against God. They would also murmur against their leader, and would grieve him by their unbelief and stubbornness, and it would be a laborious and soul-trying work to lead them through to the Promised Land. Their sins had already forfeited the favor of God, and justice called for their destruction. The Lord therefore proposed to destroy them, and make of Moses a mighty nation. {PP 318.1}

"Let Me alone, . . . that I may consume them," were the words of God. If God had purposed to destroy Israel, who could plead for them? How few but would have left the sinners to their fate! How few but would have gladly exchanged a lot of toil and burden and sacrifice, repaid with ingratitude and murmuring, for a position of ease and honor, when it was God Himself that offered the release. {PP 318.2}

But Moses discerned ground for hope where there appeared only discouragement and wrath. The words of God, "Let Me alone," he understood not to forbid but to encourage intercession, implying that nothing but the prayers of Moses could save Israel, but that if thus entreated, God would spare His people. He "besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth Thy wrath wax hot against Thy people, which Thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?" {PP 318.3}

Was Jesus seeking Moses' permission to destroy Israel? Or, was He encouraging Moses to intercede on their behalf? "The words of God, 'Let Me alone,' he understood not to forbid but to encourage intercession . . ." If so, how could Jesus' words also mean He was intending to destroy Israel if only Moses would "let" Him?

Quote:
T: It seems to me that God acts according to certain "rules" in the Great Controversy. Prayer evidently enables Him to do things He couldn't do otherwise. Not that He couldn't do so if He chose to, of course, since God is all powerful, but God chooses not to intervene in such cases at times.

In the case of Jesus asking Moses to "let" Him destroy Israel, how did His "rules of engagement" play out?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132371
04/05/11 04:41 PM
04/05/11 04:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
NJK, please accept my response above as answer to the points you raised.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132372
04/05/11 04:48 PM
04/05/11 04:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
T: Not everything that happens is for a purpose. There's a reason God has made the decisions that He has made, choosing to allow certain things to happen (like the Holocaust, for example) but this does not mean that God *purposed* for these things to happen. God's allowing certain things to happen, and purposing that they happen are very different things.

M: What were Jesus' options in cases like the Holocaust?

T: That's a pretty tall order for me, isn't it? That is, you're asking me to enumerate the options of divinity? I don't think I'm qualified to do that.

1. What factors does God weigh when choosing to allow things to play out the way they do?

2. Is God free to allow or disallow things like N&A being burned alive and the two bands of fifty being burned alive?

3. Or, are His hands tied?

4. Is Satan free to do as he pleases without limits?

5. Did Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), choose to allow things like ungodly people being burned alive?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132373
04/05/11 05:08 PM
04/05/11 05:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Originally Posted By: Tom
1. In the OT, why did Jesus command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

M: Seems to me you believe Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle because 1) the Jews failed to trust Jesus to defeat their enemies in a godly way, and 2) the Jews expected Him to think and behave like a pagan god.

Do you agree with my assessment of your view as it relates to the question above?

Was Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

Quote:
2. In the OT, why did Jesus command godly people to kill ungodly people through the execution of capital punishment?

M: Seems to me you believe Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people through the execution of capital punishment because 1) the Jews failed to trust Jesus to punish them in a godly way, and 2) the Jews expected Him to behave like a pagan god.

Do you agree with my assessment of your view as it relates to the question above?

Was Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in obedience to divine laws requiring capital punishment?

Quote:
Exodus
22:20 He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Deuteronomy
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Joshua
10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

Seems to me you believe Jesus was reluctantly willing to command the kinds of things described in the passages above for as long as it would take Him to teach the Jews how to "turn the other cheek"? Is this what you believe?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132374
04/05/11 05:26 PM
04/05/11 05:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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NJK, do you agree with Tom's view of the following passages:

Quote:
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

In particular, Tom believes the highlighted sentence above must be interpreted to mean holy angels exercise the same destructive power exercised by evil angels by withdrawing their protection and permitting evil angels to cause death and destruction. Do you agree with him?

He also believe the holy angels portrayed as causing the death and destruction described in Rev 16 must be interpreted to mean they have withdrawn their protection and are permitting evil angels to cause the death and destruction described in Rev 16. Do you agree with him?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132375
04/05/11 06:33 PM
04/05/11 06:33 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: kland
Would you say the only difference between God's character and satan's character (regarding killing), is that God's killing is considered "judicious" while satan's killing is not?


Indeed that is my understanding and view. When these “judicious killing” of God are investigated to determine why He would have done/sanctioned/ordered such an act, the just reason can be seen. (The destruction and dispossession of the indigenous habitants of the land of Canaan is a perfect example of this. As seen in Gen 15:13 & 16, their freely committed sins, which were increasingly of the perverse kind, had not reached this life-threatening (= “complete”) level where death was the next, and inevitable, result (= James 1:15); but also putting other righteous people at risk.) That is indeed also why I see that Lucifer was not immediately destroyed in Heaven. This “justifying” evidence was not yet in.

One could further illustrate the difference between God and Satan’s ‘GC War’ and ‘killing policies’ here as: God using precision and forwarned strikes, while Satan uses terroristic and indiscriminate mass destructions, and that, in regards to Satan, like a terroristic group operating within the territorial jurisdiction of a State, by trying to place the blame on God as “Acts of God”.
...Now there may be a major source of questioning/examining of God’s judgement in the Millennium reviewing judgement!

So, like some others, would you say it depends upon the motive? I, in the above specific instance, was referring to the end result. Maybe I had the flood in mind that after an observer saw the destruction of the earth and the people, would he, without knowing anything aforehand, be able to determine whether satan did it or God did it? But, considering the actual action and motives in the acting of it, does that help any? Perhaps you think not that we are going to use the Millennium for determining God's (well, not character it seems you suggest as anything goes fits in here), but act as whether it was "judicious" or "injudicious". Am I understanding correctly that you view God as using a violent act, drowning people, to stop their violent acts, and that violence is not wrong, but we will spend a thousand years determining if that, and other violent acts, were "judicious" use of violence? But, is "judicious", as determined by you proper use in determining character as you then have what MM comes up with:

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132376
04/05/11 06:33 PM
04/05/11 06:33 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
K: NJK, is killing part of God's character?

N: Because God is Just in his character, judicious killing harmonizes with how He sees best to deal with the sin problem. The Theodicy Truth here is not determined by what I need my God to be, but what He has revealed and done in the Bible. God never acts out of Character as that would itself be sin, since He/His Character is already and unimprovingly perfect.

K: Would you say the only difference between God's character and satan's character (regarding killing), is that God's killing is considered "judicious" while satan's killing is not?

M: When Jesus withdraws His protection and gives Satan permission to kill sinners, because "they are worthy" (Rev 16:6), are we to assume Satan is acting injudiciously? Is he not, after all, acting in harmony with Jesus' will? If Satan were to refuse to mete out justice on Jesus' behalf who, pray tell, would punish the wicked? What good is law if no one is willing to enforce it? "God has a right to enforce the penalty of the law upon transgressors, for law without a penalty would be without force." {ST, July 14, 1890 par. 2}
wow

Are you saying that both Jesus and Satan kill judiciously?

Quote:
who, pray tell, would punish the wicked?
Could that comment be a revealing of a problem with your view?

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