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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132393
04/06/11 01:04 AM
04/06/11 01:04 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
NJK, please accept my response above as answer to the points you raised.

I see now... Nonetheless, I believe that many of my prior answers had addressed some of these questions you pose here.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
What attribute of character did Jesus reveal when He told Moses to let Him destroy Israel?


Since an unfaithful Israel was only preventing God’s redemptive plans for potentially billions of people to be saved, even putting a great risk the accomplishment of this if no one worthy was found, (though I see that God would then have to once again seek and call a half pagan man like Abraham was to start all over with His “Israel” plans), deservingly moving here to wipe out this obstruction of ca. 2,000,000 rebels to save a numerically unknown, but potential billions+, was at least an act of Justice and Love for these others. Indeed the waywardness of Israel, thus not permitting them to be a light to the world, as it could have fully been especially by the time of Christ, has caused many to go to their graves in condemning sins which they may have refrained from had this light shone upon them (e.g., the Ninivites and Noah cf. Luke 11:32)

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Also, what would have qualified as passing the test – letting Jesus destroy Israel or not letting Him destroy Israel? Would Moses have passed the test if he had let Jesus destroy Israel? And, would Jesus have passed the test if He had destroyed Israel?


I rather see that the test which pointedly concerned Moses was to see, as all of God’s tests are (see previous citations) what was in his heart. God needed the option of an intercessor and he could not have one in Moses if Moses actually did not freely want to do so. So it now seems to me that even if Moses had chosen to let God destroy Israel and start over with him, that would not have been a sin to him, but would just mean that no intercessor had been found to have an option of mercy. So God had to candidly test Moses to see if that is what he freely wanted to be for Israel and then it could fairly be used to have mercy on Israel. Or else the enemy could claim that God forgave people without any just grounds as intercession is in God’s redemption policies.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Which begs the question – Why destroy Israel and start over with Moses? How is that not “insane” (see definition above)?


Actually destroying all of Israel then was the farthest thing from ‘insanity’ as leaving a remnant of those people up to 20 years old who had seen and been accustom to the waywardness of Israel, as well as the sinful Egyptians ways, was more risky than starting anew with descendants of Moses. Furthermore, with an recorded utter destruction here, that Moses generation, (which technically would still be descendants of Abraham) would have this striking object lesson of what can and likely will happen if they so rebelled. So they, like, relatively speaking, the generation that returned from the utter destruction of the Babylonian Captivity, would then have become ultra careful to do God’s will. Ultimately, barring the hypocrisies build up leading up to Christ’s time, that would have been an acceptable grounds to work with, even if based on the fear of God, but God really wanted a generation who freely and lovingly served Him and also knowingly would be choosing to remain faithful to Him, despite personally knowing of the evil and idolatrous ways of Egypt. Nonetheless, the deliberate 400 years of slavery, were meant to instill a fear of the promised consequences for disobedience thus offsetting this fear of a would be utter destruction with a Moses generation. So God had absolutely nothing for or against carrying out that judgement if Moses had not freely been found to be a willing intercessor for Israel.

Originally Posted By: Mountain
Because Jesus asked Moses to “let” Him destroy Israel.


I see, from the SOP God only as said “le” solely for the testing of Moses part. He was actually not asking for any “permission”. Instead Moses intercession with good points allowed and convinced Him, to have mercy. Case in point, not use of a “let” caveat in the similar Num 14 statement.

Originally Posted By: Mountain
Was Jesus seeking Moses' permission to destroy Israel? Or, was He encouraging Moses to intercede on their behalf? "The words of God, 'Let Me alone,' he understood not to forbid but to encourage intercession . . ." If so, how could Jesus' words also mean He was intending to destroy Israel if only Moses would "let" Him?


I rather see that the word used by God was meant to encourage Moses to seek the intercession option and that solely for that Moses testing purpose. Also, exegtically speaking, the Hebrew word nuach #05117, translated as “Let me alone”, literally involves stopping something or, colloquially today, “give it a rest” so God was really saying to Moses ‘don’t even begin to intercede’ i.e., even ‘give this interceding a rest’ to which, most naturally Moses would have thought: “stop interceding???, I have not even said anything....Ohhhhh!! Do you want me to intercede??...Then yeah, if that is what you think/know can be done in this case, I didn’t know I could....Then here goes my best arguments (as this apparently depends on how well I do this) {Exod 32:11-14}.’ Of course this may not have been so staged on Moses’ part but still may be reflective of His inner thoughts.

Quote:
T: It seems to me that God acts according to certain "rules" in the Great Controversy. Prayer evidently enables Him to do things He couldn't do otherwise. Not that He couldn't do so if He chose to, of course, since God is all powerful, but God chooses not to intervene in such cases at times.

MM: In the case of Jesus asking Moses to "let" Him destroy Israel, how did His "rules of engagement" play out?


I see the “rule” here as the one of needing an intercessor in order to forgive and undeserving other, even larger group of people (again = Jer 5:1; Ezek 22:30, 31; Isa 59:16).


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132394
04/06/11 01:06 AM
04/06/11 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
NJK, do you agree with Tom's view of the following passages:

Quote:
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

In particular, Tom believes the highlighted sentence above must be interpreted to mean holy angels exercise the same destructive power exercised by evil angels by withdrawing their protection and permitting evil angels to cause death and destruction. Do you agree with him?

He also believe the holy angels portrayed as causing the death and destruction described in Rev 16 must be interpreted to mean they have withdrawn their protection and are permitting evil angels to cause the death and destruction described in Rev 16. Do you agree with him?


Indeed this is what Tom believes, but I don’t see this as being the case. I see that the Bible and SOP are not shy in explicitly stating who directly does a destruction whether God and good angels or Satan and evil angels (permitted by God).

E.g., How can Satan fear for His life in the flood destruction (PP 99.2) if that was being effectuated by angels under His command??!

Originally Posted By: SOP PP 99.2
Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence.


And also who was (‘powerfully’) compelling Satan to remain withing those warring elements if it was not God??? Indeed as this was being done by manifestly remote force, this compelling force probably came directly from God, sparring the good angels being in the midst of these warring elements. In the same way, God will forcefully “chain” (i.e., a supernatural or psychological chain) Satan down to this desolate earth during the Millennium.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #132395
04/06/11 01:08 AM
04/06/11 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
So, like some others, would you say it depends upon the motive?


Generally speaking, i.e., not case specific, Yes. I.e., motives here would mean: For what Just reasons and/or towards what Just purpose.

Originally Posted By: kland
I, in the above specific instance, was referring to the end result. Maybe I had the flood in mind that after an observer saw the destruction of the earth and the people, would he, without knowing anything aforehand, be able to determine whether satan did it or God did it?


The reality in regards to the flood is that God had warned of it and caused it, and then made it to be recorded to say so. I also do not see how it realistically can be that someone would look at the result of the flood and the destruction and not know of the circumstances leading up to it that Noah had been preaching that the Creator God was going to do this. Indeed to choose between God and Satan that person would have to have a pretty knowledgeable understanding of the Bible and also the GC as Satan is, especially early, kept behind the scenes, if that is even actually applicable as it may factually be that he just did not have much chance (i.e., granted permission by God) to actively/directly effectuate such “supernatural” events of destruction.

Originally Posted By: kland
But, considering the actual action and motives in the acting of it, does that help any? Perhaps you think not that we are going to use the Millennium for determining God's ...


Originally Posted By: kland
(well, not character it seems you suggest as anything goes fits in here),


I do not understand what you meant in that statement. Please clarify.

Originally Posted By: kland
... but act as whether it was "judicious" or "injudicious".


I think I can, notwithstanding the not understood statement above, generally reply here that I see that the Millenium will be used for us to have a first hand knowledge that God has indeed been fair and just in all of, these, His final salvation decision both in those who He allowed in Heaven and those who He kept out.

Originally Posted By: kland
Am I understanding correctly that you view God as using a violent act, drowning people, to stop their violent acts, and that violence is not wrong, but we will spend a thousand years determining if that, and other violent acts, were "judicious" use of violence?


To avoid any misunderstanding here, I understand “violent” here as using force, even supernatural (= “high/higher science”) force to effectuate something that otherwise would not naturally transpire (e.g, the Flood, the raining of fire and Brimstone on Sodom and Egypt, the Red Sea opening, and the closing upon the delayed and hindered, the released to pursue, Egyptians. (Exod 14:19-21).

Originally Posted By: kland
But, is "judicious", as determined by you proper use in determining character as you then have what MM comes up with:


That statement and linking is a bit unclear, please rephrase/clarify.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132396
04/06/11 01:09 AM
04/06/11 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tom
I know this was addressed to kland, but I found this an interesting post, so have replied to it.

Quote:
When Jesus withdraws His protection and gives Satan permission to kill sinners, because "they are worthy" (Rev 16:6), are we to assume Satan is acting injudiciously?


Yes.

Quote:
Is he not, after all, acting in harmony with Jesus' will?


No, of course not. Satan acts contrary to Jesus' will. That's his character. Satan is evil; Jesus is good. They have wills the one contrary to the other.

Quote:
If Satan were to refuse to mete out justice on Jesus' behalf who, pray tell, would punish the wicked?


This isn't a reasonable assumption here.

Quote:
What good is law if no one is willing to enforce it? "God has a right to enforce the penalty of the law upon transgressors, for law without a penalty would be without force." {ST, July 14, 1890 par. 2}


The following is from "The Great Controversy" discussing the destruction of Jerusalem:

Quote:
Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)


The law is enforced. GC 35-37 describes how it is enforced. It's not an arbitrarily imposed sentence, but by the law of cause and effect.

Quote:
"By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors. Again and again men commit sin, and yet they do not seem to believe that they must suffer the penalty for breaking the law." {6BC 1095.4} "God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law." {GC 539.3} "The penalty for the least transgression of that law is death, and but for Christ, the sinner's Advocate, it would be summarily visited on every offender." {TDG 246.1}

Do you agree Jesus is required, by law, to execute justice and judgment, to punish the wicked according to their words and works?


This is the wrong way of looking at things, IMO, because it is phrasing things as if the law were an entity independent of God. The law is a transcript of God's character, so it suffices simply to say that God's character requires Him to do the things that He does, the defining characteristic of which is love.

Quote:
If so, do you believe it falls to Satan to punish them?


Disobedience to the law of itself brings punishment. It's a mistake to think that this must be arbitrarily imposed ("arbitrarily" as per its primary meaning; not "capricious" or "whimsical").

Quote:
If so, what if Satan refused to do it, who would administer the "ministry of wrath" on Jesus' behalf?


What Satan does doesn't matter as far as the certain of the punishment of the wicked is concerned.

Here's something to consider:

Quote:
Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)


The certain punishment that comes upon the wicked is exemplified by what happened in the destruction of Jerusalem. What happened there?


As a general comment on Mountain Man’s view about ‘Satan’s destruction’, I would say that he only wishes to, especially following the Cross, utterly destroy man, especially before the GC is complete which will further expose him so knowing that He has nothing to gain, when he has this destruction green light, he literally “tees-off” on these subjects, of course seeking to make this seems as God’s fault.

Since I Biblically see that God uses both direct and indirect (i.e., Satan permitted) destruction, it would interesting to make a listing for those tow categories, especially with the available SOP light. I.e., other than the Jerusalem destruction what other judgement stated in the Bible and SOP are also said to have been ‘under the direct control of Satan’ vs. God’s and His angels?


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132397
04/06/11 01:22 AM
04/06/11 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
It seems Tom is right about this incident. This is what Ellen White says, and the interesting lesson she draws:

Quote:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have showed among them? I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they." {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 9}

Moses was then tested and proved of God. Forsake Israel? Come out from among them, and leave them in their rebellion and sin?--No, never. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 10}

"And Moses said unto the Lord, Then the Egyptians shall hear it (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them;), and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by daytime in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night. Now if thou shalt kill all people as one man, then the nations that have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying, Because the Lord was not able to bring this people into the land which ye sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness. And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt until now. And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word: but as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord. Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it." {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 11}

Mark the whole tenor of this chapter, and learn the lesson it conveys to modern Israel. These things are written for our ensamples upon whom the ends of the world are come. We see the unbelief, and the stout resistance of some who have had great light, and although evidence has been piled upon evidence, they have kept themselves in stubborn resistance. The Lord has sent messages of warning and entreaty, messages of reproof and rebuke, and they have not been in vain. But we have never had a message that the Lord would disorganize the church. We have never had the prophecy concerning Babylon applied to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or been informed that the "loud cry" consisted in calling God's people to come out of her; for this is not God's plan concerning Israel. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 12}

In the example of Moses pleading for the children of Israel, is represented the position that we should take in regard to the people of God, however erring, or weak, or defective they may be. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 13}

"But we have never had a message that the Lord would disorganize the church." Which implies Jesus did not intend to destroy Israel and start over with Moses, not any more than Jesus intends to reject the SDA church and start over with another church.

As I explain in greater detail in this blog post (search for “LDE 51"), EGW here does not mean that this will never be the case, just that, at that point it was never given as such. In 1SM 179 she states that this will only be the case when there is a tangible and incontrovertible need to do. So that God’s work will not/no longer be hindered by a stalled Church.

So I really do not see EGW’s comments on Moses here as being exgetically/prophetically based, but more pastorally applied with a lone extent in view. Indeed from what I posted here and other places, I do not see her statement here as having an “I was shown” force. Thus is seems more to be by permission, than by commission, and maybe out of emotional reasons given the great circumstances she was facing/addressing.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132398
04/06/11 02:01 AM
04/06/11 02:01 AM
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Quote:
"But we have never had a message that the Lord would disorganize the church." Which implies Jesus did not intend to destroy Israel and start over with Moses, not any more than Jesus intends to reject the SDA church and start over with another church.


God never intended to destroy Israel. Israel destroyed itself by persistently rejecting the Holy Spirit (GC 35-37).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #132399
04/06/11 02:08 AM
04/06/11 02:08 AM
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Quote:
M: What were Jesus' options in cases like the Holocaust?

T: That's a pretty tall order for me, isn't it? That is, you're asking me to enumerate the options of divinity? I don't think I'm qualified to do that.

1. What factors does God weigh when choosing to allow things to play out the way they do?


All the factors there are.

Quote:
2. Is God free to allow or disallow things like N&A being burned alive and the two bands of fifty being burned alive?


Did you think through this question? Aren't you asking if God was free to allow something to happen which He allowed to happen? That's not a question that makes sense, is it?

Quote:
3. Or, are His hands tied?


His hands can be tied, in general.

Quote:
4. Is Satan free to do as he pleases without limits?


Satan would destroy everyone, and there wouldn't be any Great Controversy, which is a point I've made many times, which you are aware of.

Quote:
5. Did Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), choose to allow things like ungodly people being burned alive?


Quote:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!(Luke 13:34)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132400
04/06/11 03:52 AM
04/06/11 03:52 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
Tom, you seem to be referring to the first death, whereas in the quotes I posted Ellen is referring to the second death. The penalty for transgressing the law of God is the second death.


Penalty = result. I.e., the inevitable result of sin is death (DA 764). This is talking about the second death.

Quote:
Roman soldiers will not be employed by Satan to mete out the justice and judgment of God as in the case of Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD.


??? No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

The Israelites persistently resisted the Holy Spirit until Satan was allowed to do with him what he wanted. What Satan did to them was evil, not justice.

Quote:
By the way, what sin resulted in Satan employing Roman soldiers to kill the Jews in 70 AD?


The sin of persistently resisting the Holy Spirit, spurning God's protection.

Quote:
In what way was it not "arbitrary"?


It what was was what not arbitrary? Or, to ask the question another way, what is it you think was arbitrary, and why?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #132401
04/06/11 04:08 AM
04/06/11 04:08 AM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
M:1. In the OT, why did Jesus command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

M: Seems to me you believe Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle because 1) the Jews failed to trust Jesus to defeat their enemies in a godly way, and 2) the Jews expected Him to think and behave like a pagan god.

Do you agree with my assessment of your view as it relates to the question above?


No, of course not. But surely you must know that.

Quote:
Was Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?


What are the principles laid out in GC 35-37? That's the important question. Did Jesus Christ teach and embody these principles? Yes, He did.

Where we're disagreeing is in regards to what we think God is like. I believe God's character was revealed fully by Jesus Christ, and the best revelation was the cross. Rather than use force to get His way, Jesus Christ voluntarily submitted to torture and a horrible death from the very creatures He came to save. This is what God is like. Not just sometimes, but all the time.

The principles explained in GC 35-37 are in harmony with what Jesus Christ revealed. Your perceptions of God's character appear to me to be schizophrenic. Some of the time, as it appears to me you see things, He exhibits the qualities Jesus Christ embodied on earth, especially at the cross, but other times He acts indistinguishably from Satan, leaving us with no means to know who is acting.

Quote:
2. In the OT, why did Jesus command godly people to kill ungodly people through the execution of capital punishment?

You repeated yourself.

[quote]Was Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in obedience to divine laws requiring capital punishment?


What's your argument here? That since Jesus Christ, while here in the flesh, wasn't forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in obedience to divine laws requiring capital punishment, it therefore follows that it's not the case that all that we can know of God was revealed by Him? I can't think of why you would ask this question otherwise.

Why not just set forth your argument?

Quote:
Seems to me you believe Jesus was reluctantly willing to command the kinds of things described in the passages above for as long as it would take Him to teach the Jews how to "turn the other cheek"? Is this what you believe?


I believe, as I've said so many times, that for us to properly interpret Scripture, we need to know God's character. I believe that the first order of business is to study the life and character of His Son, whose "whole purpose" was "the revelation of God."

What is it that Jesus Christ revealed? What was Jesus Christ like? How did He treat His enemies?

I don't believe that He acted any differently in the Old Testament than while here in the flesh. Do you?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132402
04/06/11 04:52 AM
04/06/11 04:52 AM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK
That was part of my point, that was not a ‘matter-of fact account or straightforward fore-description of the destruction.


Sure it was. Anybody listening to Jesus would have understood it as such. It's obvious. He will take the vineyard away, and kill the ones that killed his son. He was angry, and sent armies to burn their city. This is very direct language.

What in Scripture suggests that the destruction of Jerusalem should be interpreted the way Ellen White did?

Quote:
In reality, did God send ‘His own army’ to do this destruction (which would literally have to be the Angels as He is the Lord of Hosts) or was it the Roman armies who came and did this. Still as God is sovereign over all of the earth, and does set up and remove earthly kings (Dan 2:21) and even ‘cause (= Hiphil) foreign kings/kingdoms to be ‘awaken/roused up/stirred up’ to effectuate His plans/judgements of destruction even when not in direct relation for or against His Israel (Isa 13:17). Indeed as shown in Isa 10:26, as the Lord of Host (=angels) He still does this work through earthly powers, even foreign armies as for the promised destruction of the Assyrians (cf. vs. 24-34). So I do not see Christ’s parable as being substantively contradictive to what was later revealed in the SOP. At the very least, it could only have been down by the allowance of the Sovereign God of this World.


Sure, you can interpret the direct statements of Christ as involving passive action on the part of God, and thus not contradicting the SOP, but this is precisely my point. Scripture portrays God's actions as direct, but the SOP portrays it as passive. There are other examples of the same thing.

So if the Bible says God acts actively, but the SOP tells us God was actively passively, which do we believe?

Quote:
T:Indeed, it sounds like this to you, but not to me, or APL, or kland, or many others. Why doesn't it sound like this to us, but it does to you? Because your mind-set is different than ours.

NJK:Indeed I similarly ask to you all: Why??! Perhaps the above “exhaustively comprehensive, harmonized” thus “proper” exegesis can help you answer this “why” here and also understand what the Biblical “mind-set” actually is.

Tom: Not at all.


NJK:That’s really too bad. However I believe I made a substantive point. It is indeed, seriously, really “too bad” that you cannot even begin to see the, at least, hinted exegetical light here.


Your reaction wasn't exegetical, but off the cuff. It revealed our mind-set.

Quote:
Your response was one of reaction. You didn't investigate what was happening, but merely read a text, and replied, "this sounds like such and such to me."


Then it should not be too hard for you to substantiate that claim of your with points that I made that were Biblically wrong and that because they were assumedly “not investigated.”


I'm just talking about your reaction. You quoted a text, from "The Great Controversy" chapter 39, as I recall, and stated that this sounded like "justified and deserving, Divine ‘wrathful’ judgements to me."

Why do these words sound that way to you? Because of your mind set, your paradigm. That's the same reason words sound the way they sound to any of us.

This gets to a big problem God has. How does He teach us His ways, His thinking, His paradigm, when we're so set on our own, and interpret everything He says according to our own?

Quote:
Okay then, I’ll mindlessly bite and assume that you had other people but me in mind here (I still don’t see why?? Especially since, as customary on your part, you never explicitly stated that you had abandoned your prior views and opposition of me for what you had though was my similar view. Indeed I cannot keep track of when you silently switch views.)


What are you talking about? I've got no idea what you're trying to say here. Silently switch views? What views were silently switched? Or switched at all, silently or not?

Quote:
T:For example, you believe that God's primary characteristic is His power. I believe it's His love.

NJK:Here you go again misunderstanding, misrepresenting and/or misconstruing my views.


This is hardly fair. Here's what you wrote:

Quote:
Clearly God considers His Characteristic Attribute to be in His Power and Ability to (ultimately) accomplish His will against any odds, or human obstacles.


"His characteristic attribute" is synonymous with "His primary characteristic." For you to characterize me as taking what you wrote in this way as "misrepresenting" or "misconstruing" your view is in no way fair. You could rightly say I'm guilty of misunderstanding it, however, but that's only because I based my view upon what you wrote. I could just have readily as written, "You believe God's characteristic attribute is His power; I believe it is His love."

Quote:
Using Love for every circumstance, especially in the realities of this GC, would prove to impeachingly be Artificial and Hypocritical on God’s part.


God always uses love in each and every instance in which He acts. Love is not something He switches on and off, but is His character. "God is love."

Love is not in contrast to power or justice, or whatever it is you think that God is doing that is different than love. All the attributes of God's character fit under the umbrella of love.

Quote:
T:As another example, I believe that the primary revelation of God's character is Jesus Christ. I believe that all that we can know of God was revealed by Him. Therefore I don't need to go outside of Jesus Christ to know or understand God. This is an important foundational principle which I use in attempting to harmonize Scriptural statements, or statements by the SOP.

NJK:I already addressed that above and again, I don’t see the OT God and Jesus to be mutually exclusive, as Jesus Himself said He was emulating the OT God (John 8:16, 28; 38; 10:37, 38). How were people to ascertain that what Jesus was doing was also what the Father would do if they were not to be looking at the records of the OT to see what the OT God had done??


Not only are they not mutually exclusive, but they are identical. If you agree with this, you should also agree that it's not necessary to go outside of Jesus Christ to learn of God. This isn't to say there isn't value in studying God in other places where He is revealed (even in nature, we can do this) but the clearest revelation of God is Jesus Christ.

Certainly if we think we have found something about God which was not revealed in Jesus Christ, we're seeing something which isn't there.

Quote:
It is quite telling to me that you rarely address my cited texts of support as this (Matt 13:10-17 = Isa 6:9-13; also Matt 23). Instead making claims to your paradigm.


I don't recall you're having made a point in regards to these texts for me to respond to. What's your point, in regards to these texts?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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