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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132442
04/06/11 11:39 PM
04/06/11 11:39 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Regarding the Flood, Tom believes God works to prevent the forces of nature from destroying the entire world. In the case of the Flood, God merely ceased preventing the forces of nature needful to cause the degree of death and damage He deemed necessary while continuing to work to prevent the remaining forces of nature from causing complete annihilation.

Tom agrees that the forces of nature are not "self-acting" and that they are totally dependent upon God to exist and act as they do. However, he rejects the idea that God "employed" the forces of nature as instruments to cause death and destruction.

But Ellen wrote, "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

She also wrote, "Many teach that matter possesses vital power. They hold that certain properties are imparted to matter, and it is then left to act through its own inherent power; and that the operations of nature are carried on in harmony with fixed laws, that God himself cannot interfere with. This is false science, and is sustained by nothing in the word of God. Nature is not self-acting; she is the servant of her Creator. God does not annul his laws nor work contrary to them; but he is continually using them as his instruments. Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active agency, that works in, and through, and above her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Said Christ, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." {HL 290.1}


Those SOP quotes of ‘active and direct utilisation’ indeed calibrate this issue for me as the make the same point as the other SOP statements in this post which speak of other direct, supernatural, acts of God. Again Tom has yet to give his understanding/explanation for these (Bible)/SOP statements.

Scientifically speaking, Is this world that much in chaos that without the active hand of God it would go haywire?? I.e., if God does not break up storm clouds then they would accumulate enough water to produce a Global Flood?! Doesn’t it take an active ‘blowing of Winds’ (Rev 7:1-3) to (inclusively), suddenly, produce such cosmic/natural chaos?

Also was God actively preventing it from raining all of this time and this Flood Rain water was just accumulating in the sky for c. 1700 years? It scientifically/mathematically seems to me that a natural accumulation of rain for 1700 years without falling at all would produce much more than 40 days of non-stop rain. If so what happened to the remaining rain?

(Or as I geologically, hypothetize/believe, prior to the flood the land masses of the world were all in one area (Gen 1:9, 10) thus perhaps hindering or not being conducive to a normal (or far in land reaching? though - Gen 2:5) hydrological cycle, hence no rain fell from the sky until, naturally, after the Flood, which would have broken up these land masses as we see them today. The untilted earth axis may also have prevented this hydrological cycle.)

And, logically speaking, in regards to the claim of a ‘methodological difference when God withdraws His Safekeeping “Hand”’: if I am driving down the highway and decide to remove my hands from the steering wheel in order to cause an accident, then how am I not directly and actively causing that accident?? In further regards to Character disculpating claims, how would I not be charged for, at the very least reckless driving causing an accident? (Of course, God’s destruction action are all just and not that legally criminal.)

Etc.,


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132443
04/07/11 01:56 AM
04/07/11 01:56 AM
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Some key points for this discussion:

-The Greek word rendered as “wrath” is "thumos" (#2372) and actually only means “passion” it needs to be qualified by another term to specify what kind of passion.

-The Bible (thus) speaks of ‘Satan’s “Passion”’ (Rev 12:12); and that is later manifested in “anger” (Gr. orgizo - #3710) (Rev 12:17 = persecution of Christians; this not a judgement/punishment of God)

-God’s Endtime “Passion” (= ‘Passion for “Truth and Good”’ and not “anger”) is actually poured out in the end in just correspondence to the level of the widely and fully diffused ‘spiritual immoral/lawless “passion” of Revelation’s Babylon (Rev 14:8; 18:3)

So God’s passion is not necessarily something angry or “sinful/evil” in perception. It is actually just a desire to see good done that does not allow itself to be hindered or “bothered” by anything that wants to persist in sin and evil. It thus resembles Christ’s deliberately oblivious actions in Matt 13:10-17 = Isa 6:9-13, only focusing on educating and illuminating those who were sincere and wanted to and not wasting time with the other rebellious ones.

Also, Tom, How do you understand Christ’s saying in Matt 11:12:

Originally Posted By: Bible Matt 11:12
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. Mat 11:12



“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132454
04/07/11 04:08 PM
04/07/11 04:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: What were Jesus' options in cases like the Holocaust?

T: That's a pretty tall order for me, isn't it? That is, you're asking me to enumerate the options of divinity? I don't think I'm qualified to do that.

1. What factors does God weigh when choosing to allow things to play out the way they do?

T: All the factors there are.

What are Jesus' options in cases like the Holocaust? Is He free to intercede, without violating freedom of choice, and prevent such things? Or, is He forced to allow it?

Quote:
2. Is God free to allow or disallow things like N&A being burned alive and the two bands of fifty being burned alive?

T: Did you think through this question? Aren't you asking if God was free to allow something to happen which He allowed to happen? That's not a question that makes sense, is it?

Before it happens, is He free to allow it? Or, is He forced to allow it? Does He have any say so in such things? Are they going to happen with or without His consent?

Quote:
3. Or, are His hands tied?

T: His hands can be tied, in general.

Are His hands tied in the sense He isn’t free to prevent things like N&A being burned alive? Do such things happen with or without His consent?

Quote:
4. Is Satan free to do as he pleases without limits?

T: Satan would destroy everyone, and there wouldn't be any Great Controversy, which is a point I've made many times, which you are aware of.

Does Satan exercise self-control? Does he work to restrain himself? Who or what establishes and enforces the limits Satan does not exceed?

Quote:
5. Did Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), choose to allow things like ungodly people being burned alive?

T: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not! (Luke 13:34)

You seem to be suggesting Jesus allowed ungodly people to be killed while He was here in the flesh. Who was killed?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132455
04/07/11 04:12 PM
04/07/11 04:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: "But we have never had a message that the Lord would disorganize the church." Which implies Jesus did not intend to destroy Israel and start over with Moses, not any more than Jesus intends to reject the SDA church and start over with another church.

T: God never intended to destroy Israel. Israel destroyed itself by persistently rejecting the Holy Spirit (GC 35-37).

Have you changed your mind? All along it has sounded like you are saying Jesus was very serious about destroying Israel and starting over with Moses. Now it sounds like you're saying it was never His intention to destroy Israel.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #132456
04/07/11 05:19 PM
04/07/11 05:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
1. In the OT, why did Jesus command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

M: Seems to me you believe Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle because 1) the Jews failed to trust Jesus to defeat their enemies in a godly way, and 2) the Jews expected Him to think and behave like a pagan god. Do you agree with my assessment of your view as it relates to the question above?

T: No, of course not. But surely you must know that.

Please elaborate.

Quote:
M: Was Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

T: What are the principles laid out in GC 35-37? That's the important question. Did Jesus Christ teach and embody these principles? Yes, He did. Where we're disagreeing is in regards to what we think God is like. I believe God's character was revealed fully by Jesus Christ, and the best revelation was the cross. Rather than use force to get His way, Jesus Christ voluntarily submitted to torture and a horrible death from the very creatures He came to save. This is what God is like. Not just sometimes, but all the time. The principles explained in GC 35-37 are in harmony with what Jesus Christ revealed. Your perceptions of God's character appear to me to be schizophrenic. Some of the time, as it appears to me you see things, He exhibits the qualities Jesus Christ embodied on earth, especially at the cross, but other times He acts indistinguishably from Satan, leaving us with no means to know who is acting.

I don’t understand how your response answers the question above.

Quote:
2. In the OT, why did Jesus command godly people to kill ungodly people through the execution of capital punishment?

T: You repeated yourself.

Why do you think so?

Quote:
M: Was Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in obedience to divine laws requiring capital punishment?

T: What's your argument here? That since Jesus Christ, while here in the flesh, wasn't forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in obedience to divine laws requiring capital punishment, it therefore follows that it's not the case that all that we can know of God was revealed by Him? I can't think of why you would ask this question otherwise. Why not just set forth your argument?

You wrote, “Jesus Christ, while here in the flesh, wasn't forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in obedience to divine laws requiring capital punishment.” Is this your answer to the question above?

In response to your question, I believe the OT Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in obedience to divine laws requiring capital punishment, and the fact the NT Jesus did not do so makes it clear He did not demonstrate this attribute of God’s character while here in the flesh.

Quote:
Quote:
Exodus
22:20 He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Deuteronomy
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Joshua
10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

M: Seems to me you believe Jesus was reluctantly willing to command the kinds of things described in the passages above for as long as it would take Him to teach the Jews how to "turn the other cheek"? Is this what you believe?

T: I believe, as I've said so many times, that for us to properly interpret Scripture, we need to know God's character. I believe that the first order of business is to study the life and character of His Son, whose "whole purpose" was "the revelation of God." What is it that Jesus Christ revealed? What was Jesus Christ like? How did He treat His enemies? I don't believe that He acted any differently in the Old Testament than while here in the flesh. Do you?

Do the scriptures above require interpretation? Ellen wrote, “The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed.” {GC 598.3} “If we would not build our hopes of heaven upon a false foundation we must accept the Bible as it reads and believe that the Lord means what He says.” {5T 171.1} You seem to be saying, no, we cannot take the passages above at faced value because . . . . If so, why not?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132461
04/07/11 08:39 PM
04/07/11 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
So the police officer, to deal with this still immediate and deadly menace, with that only deadly weapon he had, proceed to severe the killers head to effectuate a sure instant death.

I must illustratively add, kland, in that Police Officer vs. the (also) cop-killing serial killer that” ‘the officer is under investigation to see if the full decapitation that transpired was indeed warranted, or did the officer overreach here, or was it that his service knife was so sharp that it easily did this, or did he get caught up in the adrenaline/heat of the fight and blindly or even “passionately” did this.’

In the same way, the extent of God’s destruction at the flood may be an issue to be reviewed by some of the redeemed, if not, duly by all, at least required to attend and follow these review proceedings.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132464
04/08/11 12:48 PM
04/08/11 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
K: NJK, is killing part of God's character?

N: Because God is Just in his character, judicious killing harmonizes with how He sees best to deal with the sin problem. The Theodicy Truth here is not determined by what I need my God to be, but what He has revealed and done in the Bible. God never acts out of Character as that would itself be sin, since He/His Character is already and unimprovingly perfect.

K: Would you say the only difference between God's character and satan's character (regarding killing), is that God's killing is considered "judicious" while satan's killing is not?

M: When Jesus withdraws His protection and gives Satan permission to kill sinners, because "they are worthy" (Rev 16:6), are we to assume Satan is acting injudiciously? Is he not, after all, acting in harmony with Jesus' will? If Satan were to refuse to mete out justice on Jesus' behalf who, pray tell, would punish the wicked? What good is law if no one is willing to enforce it? "God has a right to enforce the penalty of the law upon transgressors, for law without a penalty would be without force." {ST, July 14, 1890 par. 2}

"By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors. Again and again men commit sin, and yet they do not seem to believe that they must suffer the penalty for breaking the law." {6BC 1095.4} "God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law." {GC 539.3} "The penalty for the least transgression of that law is death, and but for Christ, the sinner's Advocate, it would be summarily visited on every offender." {TDG 246.1}

Do you agree Jesus is required, by law, to execute justice and judgment, to punish the wicked according to their words and works? If so, do you believe it falls to Satan to punish them? If so, what if Satan refused to do it, who would administer the "ministry of wrath" on Jesus' behalf?

Quote:
With unerring accuracy, the Infinite One keeps a record of the impiety of nations and individuals. Long is his mercy tendered to them, with calls to repentance; but when their guilt reaches a certain limit, which he has fixed, then mercy ceases her pleadings, and the ministration of wrath begins. {LP 318.1}

This penalty Christ bore for the sins of the transgressor. He has borne the punishment for every man, and for this reason He can ransom every soul, however fallen his condition, if he will accept the law of God as his standard of righteousness. The cry of despair from the soul calls forth the tenderest love of God, and this is salvation to every one that believes. He who sees the guilt of his transgression, and understands the infinite sacrifice made in his behalf, will not continue in sin. But if men continue to resist light and evidence, they will cut themselves off from God's mercy, and then will come the ministry of wrath. God can not save the sinner in his sin. The love of God is immeasurable to those who repent, but His justice is firm and uncompromising to those who abuse his long-suffering love. {ST, November 15, 1899 par. 6}

M: Jesus earned the right on the cross to pardon and save penitent sinners. "For this reason He can ransom every soul." He saves them from the penalty of transgression, that is, intense emotional and physical suffering eventually ending in eternal death.

K: Are you saying that both Jesus and Satan kill judiciously? You wrote, "who, pray tell, would punish the wicked?" Could that comment be a revealing of a problem with your view?

M: You omitted most of my post. Why?

K: It doesn't fit in the quote boxes. I thought you would remember what you said. Tom repeated it and so did NJK. Are you familiar with how commentaries work? Quoting the rest of it doesn't change anything, does it?

Law and justice require impenitent sinners to “suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, ‘according to their works,’ but finally ending in the second death.” {GC 544.2} “Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, ‘The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1} I do not believe the work of punishing impenitent sinners will fall to Satan. Nor do I believe impenitent sinners will somehow punish themselves. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
Justice demanded the sufferings of man; but Christ rendered the sufferings of a God. {7BC 913.2}

In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. {RH, March 3, 1874 par. 1}

Justice demanded not merely that sin be pardoned; the death penalty must be met. The Saviour has met this demand. His broken body, his gushing blood, satisfied the claims of the law. {YI, April 16, 1903 par. 6}

The divine government had been dishonored, and justice demanded that the penalty of transgression be paid. To save the race from eternal death, the Son of God volunteered to bear the punishment of disobedience. {1SM 308}

God, being the creditor, had a right to make any provision for the redemption of human beings. Justice demanded that a certain price be paid. The Son of God was the only One who could pay this price. {7ABC 468.7}

The penalty of transgression is always death. Christ averted the immediate execution of the death sentence by giving His life for man. . . . Justice requires that men shall have light, and it also requires that he who refuses to walk in the Heaven-given light, the giving of which cost the death of the Son of God, must receive punishment. It is a principle of justice that the guilt of the sinner shall be proportionate to the knowledge given, but not used, or used in a wrong way. {HP 153.3}

Justice and Mercy stood apart, in opposition to each other, separated by a wide gulf. The Lord our Redeemer clothed His divinity with humanity, and wrought out in behalf of man a character that was without spot or blemish. He planted His cross midway between heaven and earth, and made it the object of attraction which reached both ways, drawing both Justice and Mercy across the gulf. Justice moved from its exalted throne, and with all the armies of heaven approached the cross. There it saw One equal with God bearing the penalty for all injustice and sin. With perfect satisfaction Justice bowed in reverence at the cross, saying, It is enough.--General Conference Bulletin, Fourth Quarter, 1899, vol. 3, p. 102. {7ABC 469.3}

Christ's death proved God's administration and government to be without a flaw. Satan's charge in regard to the conflicting attributes of justice and mercy was forever settled beyond question. Every voice in heaven and out of heaven will one day testify to the justice, mercy, and exalted attributes of God. It was in order that the heavenly universe might see the conditions of the covenant of redemption that Christ bore the penalty in behalf of the human race.--Manuscript 128, 1897. {7ABC 470.1}

His [Christ's] object was to reconcile the prerogatives of justice and mercy, and let each stand separate in its dignity, yet united. His mercy was not weakness, but a terrible power to punish sin because it is sin; yet a power to draw to it the love of humanity. Through Christ Justice is enabled to forgive without sacrificing one jot of its exalted holiness.--General Conference Bulletin, Fourth Quarter, 1899, vol. 3, p. 102. {7ABC 470.2}

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.--Manuscript 50, 1900. {7ABC 470.3}

God bowed His head satisfied. Now justice and mercy could blend. Now He could be just, and yet the Justifier of all who should believe on Christ. He [God] looked upon the victim expiring on the cross, and said, "It is finished. The human race shall have another trial." The redemption price was paid, and Satan fell like lightning from heaven.--Youth's Instructor, June 21, 1900. {7ABC 470.4}

There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor. The penalty must be exacted. The Lord does not save sinners by abolishing His law, the foundation of His government in heaven and in earth. The punishment has been endured by the sinner's substitute. Not that God is cruel and merciless, and Christ so merciful that He died on Calvary's cross to abolish a law so arbitrary that it needed to be extinguished, crucified between two thieves. The throne of God must not bear one stain of crime, one taint of sin. In the councils of heaven, before the world was created, the Father and the Son covenanted together that if man proved disloyal to God, Christ, one with the Father, would take the place of the transgressor, and suffer the penalty of justice that must fall upon him (MS 145, 1897). {6BC 1070.4}

What did God command Moses to do with those who were guilty of adultery? They should be stoned to death. Does the punishment end there? No, they are to die the second death. The stoning system has been done away, but the penalty for transgressing God's law is not done away. If the transgressor does not heartily repent, he will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. {TSB 131.3}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {LDE 241.1}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}

The law given to man in Eden is recorded, together with the penalty incurred because of its transgression. The record of our first parents is given as a warning to the children of men, that they may understand how strictly God requires his creatures to conform to all his requirements, and how surely his retributive justice follows disobedience. When the law of Sinai was proclaimed, how definite was the penalty annexed! how sure the punishment that followed its transgression! and how plain are the cases recorded in evidence of that fact! {RH, January 22, 1880 par. 6}

Since Satan is the originator of sin, the direct instigator of all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God, justice demands that Satan shall suffer the final punishment. Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty. {PP 358.2}

“It is because He has borne the punishment that man can have a second probation.” {RH, May 28, 1901 par. 10} “Through this plan the great, the dreadful God can be just, and yet be the justifier of all who believe in Jesus, and who receive Him as their personal Saviour.” {5BC 1133.4} "My Father hath so loved you, that he even loves me more for giving my life to redeem you. In becoming your substitute and surety, by surrendering my life, by taking your liabilities, your transgressions, I am endeared to my Father; for by my sacrifice, his will is fulfilled, his law vindicated, and God can be just, and yet justify him who believes in Jesus." {ST, November 28, 1892 par. 1}
MM, I have no idea what you believe. I have no idea if you contradicted what you said before or not. Could you please state clearly what you believe about whether God and/or satan kills judiciously?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132465
04/08/11 12:52 PM
04/08/11 12:52 PM
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NJK, that was quite a fascinating analogy. I'm glad you clarified the sharpness of the knife, but still, I will assume you do not know much about cutting off heads and assume that I presume I do. I do not know that one could cut one's head off with a knife. I hear deer hunters use a saw or chainsaw to cut deer's heads off. But, needless to say, I do understand your attempt at illustration. Except for one issue.

I understand you to say the police officer stabbed and decapitated the killer as a means of self defense. Second, you used "killer" or "deadly menace" as opposed to someone who just disagrees with you. Does God feel threatened (with His life, even) and considers those who disagree with Him a deadly menace?

Quote:
k: So, would you say God used violence to stop violence?

NJK: ...case in point, what is your question here, e.g., ‘does God use (physical? or supernatural?) force to stop the use of (physical? or supernatural?) force.’

From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. Mat 11:12

So if we whitewash it as in your definition we have:
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers use of force, and forceful men take it by force.

I don't know, but sounds watered down and kind of like it disputes your definition. As in, can things be taken by force without violence?

But if force and violence are the same thing, is that just like what you imply God doing? What is violence? Could all cases be whitewashed with "force"? Why do you and/or MM feel the need to whitewash it -- is it because you do indeed see a problem?

It what way is your view of God's character different from other denominations'?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #132466
04/08/11 01:04 PM
04/08/11 01:04 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,819
Midland
Originally Posted By: RH, June 21, 1892 par. 3
There are many who have but an imperfect understanding of the character of God. They think of him as stern and arbitrary, and when the fact is presented that God is love, it is a difficult matter for these souls to lay aside their false conceptions of God. But if they do not let the word of truth in, rooting out the thorns, the briers will start up afresh, and choke out the good word of God; their religious experience will be dwarfed, for the evil of their hearts will overtop the tender plant of truth, and shut away the spiritual atmosphere. {RH, June 21, 1892 par. 3}

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #132471
04/08/11 03:19 PM
04/08/11 03:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
MM, I have no idea what you believe. I have no idea if you contradicted what you said before or not. Could you please state clearly what you believe about whether God and/or satan kills judiciously?

Jesus is sovereign King of the Universe. He is in control - not self, not sin, not the forces of nature, and certainly not Satan. Nothing happens by fate or chance. Everything happens by command or permission. True, we manage the choices, but Jesus manages the consequences, the outcome. Jesus has known from eternity every choice everyone will make. He also has known from eternity how He will work to ensure the outcome of every choice serve His ultimate will and desire.

Jesus decides when and if sinners will be punished for their sins in this lifetime, that is, before they pay the ultimate price for their sins - severe emotional and physical suffering lasting in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness eventually ending in eternal death. For example, Jesus determined N&A's sin warranted burning them alive. And in the case of the two bands of fifty, Jesus decided the circumstances required burning them alive.

There are times, however, when Jesus commands holy angels to mete out justice and judgment on His behalf. "A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished.” {GC 614.2}

There are also times when Jesus gives evil angels permission to mete out justice and judgment on His behalf. “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” {GC 614.2} “God will use his enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. These enemies of God are living evidences of the truth of His word; they are fulfilling that which holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” {PC 136.3}

I do not believe Jesus acts injudiciously when He metes out justice and judgment.

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