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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132513
04/09/11 11:51 AM
04/09/11 11:51 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Quote:
NJK: Also, Tom, How do you understand Christ’s saying in Matt 11:12:

"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. Mat 11:12"

Tom: This isn't a verse I've studied.


From a semi exhaustive exegetical study that I have done on this verse, but succinctly summarized here:

-the Greek word “biazomai” translated here as “violent’ actually refers to “(mental) bias” thus it refers to one who acts with a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue situation; influence in an unfair way; or going across the grain.
It speaks of forcefully acting with a mindset and not pointedly to the physicality involved. It involves changing a bias mindset.

So here Christ was saying that the Kingdom of God until John was being overun by people with various bias against it in it purity. This indeed was seen the major and distinct factions presently in Israel as the Pharisees (Conservative), Sadducees (Liberal), Essenes (Separatists) and Zealots (Militants) [see this David Asscherick sermon [01:34:38-01:45:00] on this]. So Christ was inviting those with now his biased mindset for the true Kingdom “Good News” to actively, correspondingly act against these biases. In other words, those who wanted this True Kingdom to triumph had to now ‘steel their minds’ against these other stubborn and obstinate wrong ways of thinking. That was all indeed fully Biblical, =Ezek. 3:5-9, which was probably the basis of Christ’s statement here.

Originally Posted By: Tom
This was Adam Clarke and Barne's Notes respectively.


Seriously Tom??... Adam Clarke and Albert Barnes....Coming from a Seminarian Tom, I am frankly quite disappointed. I would rather expecting from you mentions from more exegetical commentaries such as the Word Biblical Commentary and/or the SDABC. Rather than, at lastest/best, scholastically speaking, respectively: ca. early (d. 1832), and ca. mid (d. 1870), 19th century works. Matter-of-factly speaking, I virtually chucked these works ‘out of my Windows’ 13 years ago, because no matter what they ‘so reverentially and sincerely express,’ it rarely if ever is, at least transparently exegetically demonstrated. So I personally feel that I merely reading personal opinions.

And the actual context of Christ statement, which they could have better grasped if exegesis had been used, is that John had just sent disciples of his to Jesus expressing his doubt about Christ as he was still imprisoned and probably sensing that he was going to be killed. So Jesus counsel here, after these disciples had left, probably because John needed to build and maintain his faith in Christ on the great evidence that he already had been given, was in this light this suffering and doubting of John. Thus from then on, the Kingdom needed people who would not be mentally dissuade by mere physical suffering. But who would through these adversities maintain a mind “biased” for the Kingdom according to Christ true Gospel. The same holds true today, especially in terms of the mental resolve.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132517
04/09/11 02:17 PM
04/09/11 02:17 PM
APL  Offline
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I read in Desire of Ages this morning chapter 51, "The Light of Life". While reading, I was reflecting on what has been written in this thread. Here are a few quotes from this chapter.
Originally Posted By: DA 466
In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve.
Originally Posted By: DA 469
With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." {DA 469.4}
Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. {DA 469.5}
Jesus was God in the flesh. Everything that we need to know or can know about God was revealed by Christ.
Originally Posted By: DA 471
It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God ,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1}
Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isaiah 53:4, 3. {DA 471.2}
God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}
All suffering, all death, is the result of what Satan has done.
Originally Posted By: DA 473
The blind man answered, "Whether He be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see." {DA 473.3}
Then they questioned again, "What did He to thee? how opened He thine eyes?" With many words they tried to confuse him, so that he might think himself deluded.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #132520
04/09/11 03:57 PM
04/09/11 03:57 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
From a semi exhaustive exegetical study that I have done on this verse, but succinctly summarized here:

-the Greek word “biazomai” translated here as “violent’ actually refers to “(mental) bias” thus it refers to one who acts with a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue situation; influence in an unfair way; or going across the grain.
It speaks of forcefully acting with a mindset and not pointedly to the physicality involved. It involves changing a bias mindset.


This looks to agree with what I said.

Quote:
So Jesus counsel here, after these disciples had left, probably because John needed to build and maintain his faith in Christ on the great evidence that he already had been given, was in this light this suffering and doubting of John. Thus from then on, the Kingdom needed people who would not be mentally dissuade by mere physical suffering. But who would through these adversities maintain a mind “biased” for the Kingdom according to Christ true Gospel. The same holds true today, especially in terms of the mental resolve.


It seems that the issue of those falsely trying to obtain, such as the Pharisees, was a key point Jesus had in mind. I quoted the commentaries because they were easily available, being on line, and I found the following point interesting:

Quote:
People have been "earnest" about it; they have come "pressing" to obtain the blessing, as if they would take it by violence. There is allusion here to the manner in which cities were taken. Besiegers "pressed" upon them with violence and demolished the walls. With such "earnestness" and "violence," he says, people had pressed around him and John since they began to preach. There is no allusion here to the manner in which individual sinners seek salvation, but it is a simple record of the fact that multitudes had thronged around him and John to hear the gospel.


The idea here is that a figure of speech was being used, similar to the taking of a city.

My own idea, based on just reading the text, was similar to what you wrote, that Jesus was referring to a mental bias that people had.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132521
04/09/11 04:05 PM
04/09/11 04:05 PM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK
So my point has been from the start that God only uses the sentence of death when sin threatens life. Of course Tom (unbiblically, in my understanding) said and says that ‘sin organically always is life threatening’


I haven't said this. This doesn't mean I disagree with it, but the fact that you use quotes here is a bit confusing, since quote marks usually indicate that you're quoting someone. What I've said is that there is an organic relationship between sin and death; that the inevitable result of sin is death. As James puts it, sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. Also the sting of death is sin; the wages of sin is death; the soul that sins shall die; convey the same thought. God Himself said one of these, and inspired others to say the rest.

Quote:
however I see that, as God Himself has said, sinners can live forever if they had access to the Fruit of the Life (Gen 3:22-24; PP 60.3). So in the Flood destruction, as God said in Gen 6:5, 11, 12 that an extreme sinful state had been reached where ‘the sinners ‘ wickedness was great and their thoughts was towards evil continually, all flesh had corrupted their ways and the earth was filled with violence.’


If they are filled with violence, then they're killing others, and the Tree of Life is no help in this case. It doesn't resurrect the dead. Eventually only one would be left, the strongest, most cunning violent person (or the luckiest), and then that person would kill himself or herself. Given what we know to be the case about sin, this seems like a very plausible scenario. What prevents things like this from happening is not the Tree of Life, but the grace of God. Take away the grace of God, and the scenario I've traced out, or a worse one, would take place so fast it would be head-spinning.

We simply have no idea of the "sinfulness of sin," as EGW often said, not giving the credit we should to the grace/kindness/mercy of God, because we don't perceive its importance.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132522
04/09/11 04:09 PM
04/09/11 04:09 PM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
NJK: Also Tom, do list the other places in the Bible/SOP where you (explicitly(?)) see the indirect method being used.

Tom: The Bible says that God sent fiery serpents against the Israelites, but the SOP says they were there the whole time, but God withdrew His protection.

NJK:So... by removing His hand God allowed these always present fiery serpents to come against Israel. I see no difference here.


You don't see the difference between an active action and a passive action? First of all, it's hard to believe that you don't see the difference between these two things. Secondly, if you don't see a difference, then why argue against my point of view? At the very least, if there's no difference, then my point of view, from your perspective, should be a possibility.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132524
04/09/11 04:12 PM
04/09/11 04:12 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
T:Those are a couple that come to me off the top of my head. There are many examples like this.

NJK:As I am, as always, looking for a substantive and weighty answer rather than a quick one, then whenever you remember, relocate, find these claimed others then do post them so that they can also be concretely attested and exegetically ascertained.


It doesn't seem to matter. You said you don't see the difference. If you don't see the difference between God's sending poisonous serpents upon the Israelites, and God's permitting serpents which were already there to act, what difference would it make how many examples I provided?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132525
04/09/11 04:21 PM
04/09/11 04:21 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
NJK: And Tom has not yet addressed the many direct destruction of God in the OT as explicitly stated in both the Bible and SOP.

Tom: That's what I've been doing this whole thread.

NJK:Not the many major ones that I have cited thus far:
-Plagues of Egypt
-185,000 Assyrian
-Sodom and Gomorrah
-Jericho’s Walls
-the Egyptians in the Red Sea (God had directly acted to split it open)
-the not yet acceptably explained by you, Flood,
-Annanias and Sapphira


We've spoken some about the plagues of Egypt. The traditional view is that God applied more and more force against Pharaoh until he finally capitulated. I've mentioned that this idea presents God as acting in a similar fashion to someone wanting protection money. Accidents, or plagues, keep happening until the one applying force gets his way.

Regarding the flood, a couple of quick thoughts. One is that models creation scientists have developed, the Bible, and the SOP, all agree that the waters of the flood were primarily under the earth. These waters exploded into the atmosphere, and that precipitated the flood. The amount of water released was nothing like any flood we've ever seen.

These waters, to explode into the atmosphere, must have been under tremendous pressure. Both of the following possibilities harmonizes with the ideas I've been presenting:

1.God knew the disaster was going to take place. He could have prevented it, and would have, given a favorable response to Noah's preaching.

2.God was preventing the disaster from occurring, but stopped doing so when His overtures were continually rejected, after the many years of preaching of Noah.

If God were acting directly to cause the flood, He would have had to cause the pressure in the first place, as well as not prevent the action from occurring.

But you wrote elsewhere that you don't seen any difference between God's sending fiery serpents upon the Israelites, and His withdrawing His protection, so why would you care here, or in the other incidents you mentioned, what happened?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132526
04/09/11 04:36 PM
04/09/11 04:36 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
Indeed according to your incorrectly limiting view due to various artificial reasons, the action of God in the NT Church with Annanias and Sapphira is of no consequence. So God is really to be limited to what was done by Christ between 27-31 A.D.!??


You could mention Herod as well. I think if you have the idea that these incidents involve God's acting different than Jesus acted during His time here in the flesh (4BC - 31 A.D.), then these incidents are being misunderstood, just as much as any such OT incidents are.

Once again, given that you see no difference between God's sending fiery serpents and withdrawing His protection from serpents which were already there, why would you care how these incidents are perceived?

Quote:
T:It's not necessary to look at each and every incident. They all follow the same principles. We can look at a few, and learn from those, and apply the principles to others.

NJK:You’ll first need to prove this “all follow” claim in, at the very least, the above cited episodes!


No, this isn't necessary. If the underlying principles are understood, it's not necessary to apply them to any arbitrary list of incidents a person can mention. If this were the case, one would be constrained to go through all of them, as any arbitrary list is as good as another.

What I've been asserting is that there are certain principles at work, including:

1.All that can be known of God was revealed by the life and teachings of Jesus Christ during His earthly mission.
2.God is just like Jesus Christ in character.
3.Jesus Christ was not violent, and taught anti-violence.
4.There are thousand dangers from which God protects us constantly. Any degree of destruction is possible by God's simply withdrawing His protection. There is no need for God to act actively to produce destruction.
5.The use of force is contrary to the principles of God's government.

These are a few. Now if these are genuine principles, then there are always in effect. We don't have to consider cases where God acts according to these principles and cases where He doesn't, because there aren't any cases where He doesn't. Therefore understanding any situation which involves these principles is sufficient. The incident that we have the most information about is the destruction of Jerusalem, so that's the one I've spent the most time on.

Another incident which would bear great fruit to study is the cross. What happened there? Understanding the cross opens the door to understanding all the incidents you mentioned.

Quote:
In other words, the Biblical evidence is too compelling of a direct and merciful action to be supplanted by EGW’s understanding of what is indirectly allowed to takes place when no mercy is to be shown.]


This seems like you're putting your own understanding of things as the final arbiter of truth. God sends a prophet, who provides more information upon a subject, and if that information disagrees with what you think, you write that information off as the prophet being "mistaken." I don't believe I'm misrepresenting your position here, do you?

So you have more faith in your exegesis than in the words of the prophet.

Also you appear to have the understanding that divine inspiration worked completely differently for Ellen White than for Bible writers. I see the inspiration as being identical. Bible writers were just as prone to be "mistaken" as Ellen White was. Do you disagree?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132527
04/09/11 05:07 PM
04/09/11 05:07 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
Some foundational questions come to mind:

1.What is God like?

I see the answer found in the whole Bible and not only in Jesus.


Do you see that it's necessary to look outside of Jesus to know what God is like?

Quote:
T:2.Does He use force to get His way?

NJK:That question is actually mootly irrelevant to me.


That's too bad. The Great Controversy is being fought regarding this and similar questions. It revolves around the question of God's character and the principles of His government.

Quote:
God does not use for to “compel” anyone or anything.


What do you think happened in the Egyptian plagues? How did God get Pharaoh to allow the Israelites to leave if He didn't use force?

Quote:
3.Does He directly punish people by doing things like burning them alive?
Yes... as it was justified. (e.g., Sodom and Gomorrah)


Originally Posted By: Tom
(Did Jesus act like this).

No... as it was not yet justified, i.e., fully time for this. (e.g., Luke 13:6-8)


Then Jesus didn't fully reveal God's character. That's a fair conclusion if what you're suggesting is the case, isn't it?

Quote:
T:4.We know that there were certain things, like mercy and grace, which always existed in God's character, but weren't revealed until after sin came about. Should things like destruction be put in the same category?

NJK:As also being just and loving yes. “Just” because, as this GC will prove, a lawless life is not a viable alternative and put others at risk.


I agree with your last sentence here.

Quote:
And man apart from God cannot safely, healthily live forever.


I agree that man, acting contrary to God's will, cannot live safely or healthfully. Apart from God, man cannot live even for an instant, let alone eternally.

Quote:
And that includes the “Supernatural God-derived” element that was removed from life and nature with the removal of the Tree of Life which contained and dispensed it. So the option of sinful man living completely apart from God, including not Tree of Life is not a viable option.


Not only not man, but no created being, can live for an instant apart from God. At every moment of one's life, whether human, bird, insect or amoeba, God's action is required for their to be life. Life apart from God does not exist.

Quote:
T:These questions involve one's whole concept about what God is like and what He wants from us. Does He want unthinking, unquestioning obedience? Does He want us to do what He says, or else?

NJK:I don’t see this as being revealed anywhere in the Bible.


See what? These are questions. You're saying you don't see these questions as being considered anywhere in Scripture? What's your point here?

Surely what God wants from us in an important consideration. I don't see how you could disagree with this.

Quote:
T:What is it that makes God happy?

NJK:Loving obedience, Faith and respect (=a healthy fear). E.g., you can really love the current U.S. President, but running up to him as he walks by and hugging him profusely may probably get you shot, or at the very least taken down by the Secret Service. God wants us to love Him but there is an inherent infinite greatness in Him that is to be respected so that we do what he says simply because he says so as he knows why it is, for real and ever present reasons, needing to be the case.


What were you just saying? It looked like you were saying that these questions weren't revealed anywhere in Scripture, and then you answered the question. How do you know the answer? Presumably from Scripture. In this case, they *are* considered in Scripture.

You say that God wants loving obedience. On what do you base this conclusion?

You seem to imply that God doesn't want us to get to close to Him, that if we do so, we'll get shot, like a person who tries too close to the president. You gave the example of hugging the president, as opposed to someone who had a threatening action in mind. Was it your intent to convey they idea that we better not try to get too close to God?

Quote:
How does God act when He is not happy?

As any one who is (un)happy will act. God however is also not hypocritical or becomes stoic when something displeases Him (e.g., Exod 4:14ff; 24-26; Num 16:41, 45). In all things God is real, and, foundationally, that is what (True) Love is all about.


I changed "happy" to "unhappy," as I think that's what you meant. You're saying here that when God is unhappy, He acts like human beings act when they are unhappy, correct? I assume that's what you mean by saying, "As any one who is unhappy will act."

Thanks for your answers here NJK. I found this exchange to be among the most helpful that we've had.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132528
04/09/11 08:41 PM
04/09/11 08:41 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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As these answers within that prior reply post may have been missed due to my formatting coding error, I repost them here:

Quote:
NJK: For example, (and correct me if I mis-restated your view) in our discussion on the Fruit of Life, I see and say that in God’s perfect plan (i.e., before sin was ever a factor in anything), we were meant to live forever by our partaking of the Fruit of Life. You categorically say no and point to the post-sin provision made by Christ on the Cross as the only means to live eternally, and that the Tree of Life was only a substantively vacuous object lesson of that.

Tom: You misunderstood my view. What I emphasized was that life comes from God, and that the Tree of Life was a means for God to teach us of our dependence upon Him. I never said that the Tree of Life was an object lesson for the post-sin provision made by Christ on the cross, and don't see that this would make any sense, since the tree of life existed before sin came about.


Fair enough, I perhaps did misunderstand your view. However your clarification that: “the Tree of Life was a means for God to teach us of our dependence upon Him” confirms and further heightens my observation of substantive vacuousness.

Again, and this is not a rhetorical question: How was man to live forever before sin? By “learned dependence” osmosis??? You, uniquely in this thread, blindly and unbiblically refuse to see any ‘life-perpetuating “supernatural power” in the Fruit of Life’. Even Jesus does not endorse your view (e.g., Rev 2:7 and many other SOP statements confirm this fact.)

Do we need the Tree of life in Heaven to supposedly continue to learn dependence on God???

Originally Posted By: Tom
The real important point I was bring out, which is where the whole Tree of Life discussion began, is that there is an organic relationship between sin and death, and between faith and life. You denied this, using the Tree of Life as an argument against this idea.


Indeed I did, and still do, because the Bible and SOP are clear that sinners can live forever (Gen 3:22-24; PP 60.3). Your rationalizations trying to disprove these Biblical facts are mere human reasonings. Indeed, and especially in our day when the many lessons of sin have been learned, if sinners today had access to the Tree of Life, they of all generation would be able to live forever as they would like, as most seek to do now, and given many advances in knowledge, science and technologies, would staunchly live by at least the last 6 commandments and ignore the first 4.

Quote:
NJK: I instead have the harmonizing view that Jesus came to provide redemption to man, to those who would accept this gift, and thus once again give us access to this Tree of Life so that we can live eternally (=Rev 2:7).

Tom: Do you think that when we believe in Christ that we, at that moment, have eternal life?


The Bible [+SOP] fully teaches that with such a genuine faith, our sins are forgiven and will, in persisting in this faith, be all blotted out in the judgement, and thus we can have the unshakable assurance that Jesus will one day in the future let us enter into Heaven to access the Tree of Life so that we can ingest the life-perpetuating supernatural powers contained therein. However show the Second Coming tarry, we can and will die in this life.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 02:19 AM
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by kland. 03/05/24 12:49 PM
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by ProdigalOne. 03/04/24 05:54 AM
The Lake of Fire is Hell
by Rick H. 03/02/24 05:01 PM
Adventist Agriculture
by kland. 02/29/24 12:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
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