That isn't the problem...

God's word is creative, indeed, but..., how would God's judicial declaration of righteousness actually make us righteous: creating righteousness out of nothing, in us, isn't how it works, is it, since it is rebirth, receiving the presence of God himself to bring in righteousness, that makes us righteous by faith in the experience of justification. Basically, God does something to make us righteous, not say anything: giving us the Holy Spirit is an action, not a statement of truth.

Now...the confusion arises, for we teach that justification by faith is a declaration of righteousness "for us" and outside of us, while sanctification is the change "in us" of the Holy Spirit arriving and changing us. This contradicts any possibility of an inner renewal for justification - even if merely spoken by God, since justification is solely and exclusively outside of us - barring the Spirit's entrance into our consciousness.

Do we receive the Spirit of God of conversion when we are justified and qualified for heaven or only once we participate in sanctification?

Ok, then if you go in that direction, explain how Peter after accepting Christ and being 'Justified' aka "made righteous", cut off another mans ear, denied Christ, argued with Paul, didnt accept Gentiles till the vision. Peter was not instantly "made righteous", it was "counted unto him" by faith, and the process of "Sanctification" began.....is how it seems to read from scripture.

The thief on the cross thoughts and desires did not changed when he was justified, but his sentence was changed, becasue of his faith, he was pardoned for his life of sin and given eternal life.

Luke 23 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]”

43 Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Justification is pardon. When, led by the Holy Spirit, you believe in God's love and forgiveness, in heaven God declares you forgiven and, on earth, God's love and forgiveness become real in your life, changing your heart. Both happen at the same time.

God's forgiveness is not merely a judicial act by which He sets us free from condemnation. It is not only forgiveness for sin, but reclaiming from sin. It is the outflow of redeeming love that transforms the heart. {MB 114.1}

So, we agree that justification includes a heart experience, indeed(?).

This renewal of the heart at the very beginning of the walk/life of faith - with that life's ups & downs..., enables a life of obedience to Christ's commandments, not so; otherwise, there is no renewal with which we may choose to obey, is there? Sanctification cannot be renewal of mind and transformation of character - two things at once: we obey because we are renewed, not both in one step even though they are linked as separate events, of course.

Since imputed righteousness qualifies us for heaven, how can pardon alone - without regeneration or receiving the Holy Spirit - qualify us for heaven in this life?

Colin, regarding post 132825, are you disagreeing with what A. T. Jones wrote, or with how I interpreted what he wrote?

Or "forgiveness." Indeed, it is, which can be seen from Romans 5:1-7. Quoting verse 7:



This is speaking of the blessing of justification by faith.



Agreed. Justification, or pardon, isn't simply a book entry in heaven, but a tangible change in the persons heart and life.



Right, and this is evident from the original meaning of the word "forgiveness" in Greek, which involves "bearing away." So the isn't merely forgiven in a technical sense, but actually born away.



Which this is getting at.



This is a nice quote. Here's another dealing with this same concept:

Christ is Creator and Re-creator, but making believers righteous is far more than just saying so - even for God: giving us his Spirit. Dying to sin & self may be the declaration of righteousness of God.

The beginning of salvation for us isn't just pardon: it's death to self, for when Christ died for all, all died.

Peter confessed Christ as prompted by the Holy Spirit of the Father. We turn from the Spirit of Jesus when we sin, opting for the old covenant apart from God: doesn't change the reality of walking in the Spirit when we do. We have an advocate with the Father, and we are justified by the Spirit's presence whenever we repent and confess our sins.

The two covenants mean that each day we may and must choose between living with the Spirit or our own way, by our own will and strength - unsanctified will. Submitting to the Spirit is experiencing justification: what happens because of that submission is sanctification.

This comment is making me think you didn't read the article.



I think you misunderstood what I said, and didn't read the article. The whole point, of both Jones and Waggoner, which I'm echoing, is that "making believers righteous is far more than just saying so - even for God."

So I think we're on the same page here, that you just misunderstood something.