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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #133096
05/01/11 03:06 AM
05/01/11 03:06 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
I already did, in Post #133034. Engage those already posted answering comments.


You did the same thing as before in regards to kland's question. You're asked a question about something you wrote, and then, instead of answering the question, you refer back to the post which caused the question!

Post #133034 is exactly what I'm asking about. Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown.

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.

By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan.

The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.

Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.

The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 35-36; for ease of reading, I broke this up into several paragraphs.)


You wrote (and this is from post #133034)

Quote:
I understand EGW statement in GC 35.3 to mean that God does not force (i.e., by a freewill violating decree) people who otherwise would not, experience a judgement. Their own waywardness brought that judgement upon them. Satan however tries to make it seem that the people who are suffering have done nothing to deserve this and this is just an unjust act of God.


I understand that you wrote this. There is no need to refer back to this. I'm asking how you arrived at your conclusion.

I don't see anything in Ellen White's writings that would suggest anything you are concluding. I don't even see enough similarity to ask you some specific question about what she wrote. So I'm asking you to please explain your reasoning. Not what you believe, but why. Based on what Ellen White wrote, how do you arrive at the conclusion that you stated?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #133097
05/01/11 03:09 AM
05/01/11 03:09 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Nothing that passes a “valid objection/response here either. Just more obliviousness, quibblings, arbitrary selectiveness and, of course, mindless obfuscating. You just can’t take all pertinent issues/elements into consideration when defending your view, but must remain indifferently one-sided.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #133098
05/01/11 03:13 AM
05/01/11 03:13 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Laval, Quebec
If you can't see why post #133034, and, logically in its fuller context than just that first explaining paragraph, resolves this issue here then you're are at least clinically blind. Can't help you there. Or... as self-evident, you just slight-of-handly obliviously switched the actual issue at hand here which was stemming from kland’s excising mal-quoting.

By the way, you can email Dwight Nelson yourself from the PMChurch.tv website and ask him to clarify his current view on the War in Heaven topic.

Last edited by NJK Project; 05/01/11 03:24 AM.

“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #133099
05/01/11 04:15 AM
05/01/11 04:15 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Tom
If, at every turn, you feel the need to resort to sarcasm and insults, that speaks to a feeling of inferiority, a sense of doubt.


As they say, “ignorance is bliss” and as, at least, you don’t care to engage in thorough and proper exegesis, it does not bother you to glibly respond to issues here. It does to me, especially when your shallow reasoning, readings and comments just add layers of dirt upon the issue, that I then have to waste my time unspinning and clearing up. That, fundamentally is the source of all of my frustrations in this discussion with you and why this conversation is both aggravating and frustrating to me; and thus, recursively, whenever this substantive indifference and obliviousness from your side once again manifests itself" no longer [worthwhile[/u]. The fact that you are a Seminarian, and thus should be able to properly engage exegesis causes me to be suckered back into this discussion “black hole” in regards pointedly your responses. I’ll just have to defaultly discount that ‘beautiful fig leaves’ facade, for my own “sanity's” sake... Indeed my head hurts from it repeatedly having been slam against this suddenly recurring wall. It’s all as futile as thinking to solve a calculus problem with 8th grade algebra. Of course, I don’t expect you to see/admit to/agree with this, but since I do, I cannot again go against my conscience here. Your amnesic “dense forest despite all of the felled trees” attitude, if not, "posturing", is what really irks me the most.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #133100
05/01/11 04:25 AM
05/01/11 04:25 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Up to now, everything that has happened has been tempered with mercy. That is, not until the seven last plagues will Jesus pull out all the stops - "unmixed with mercy". All along Jesus has held back, that is, He has established and enforced limits, limits which neither holy angels nor evil angels have been allowed to exceed. Jesus (not sin, not sinners, not Satan) is the one who determines when, where, and how impenitent sinners will be punished. It is not up to Satan to determine. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."


It's a huge mistake to view God as responsible for these things.

Quote:
It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner.

Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isa. 53:4, 3.

God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. (DA 471)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #133101
05/01/11 04:54 AM
05/01/11 04:54 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
In those cases where she plainly says God “used His enemies as instruments to punish” impenitent sinners, can it be said “their sufferings are . . . a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God”?


No.

Quote:
Obviously the phrase “punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God” does not contradict what she wrote in the PC 136 quote posted above. I believe the phrase “punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God” conveys the idea that Jesus had no justifiable reason for withdrawing His protection and permitting His enemies to punish the Jews in 70 AD.


I don't understand what this means. Jesus had no justifiable reason for withdrawing His protection?

Quote:
The truth is, Jesus was justified.


Oh I see what you're saying. Actually the phrase, "punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God” conveys the idea that the punishment visited upon them was not due to a direct decree of God. This means it wasn't God's will. Also, the context makes clear what was happening. She repeats, over and over again (reminiscent of DA 764) that the things that happened were NOT due to something God did, but to the actions of others. Indeed, one wonders how she could have made this clearer.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #133102
05/01/11 05:01 AM
05/01/11 05:01 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, when you get a chance, please address 132,979, 980, and 981. Thank you. Happy Sabbath.


I responded to one post, and started to work on another, but was pretty sure I had already responded to it, so I stopped. Could you double check which posts you want me to respond to?

Thanks for the Happy Sabbath wish. Hope you had a good Sabbath as well.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #133103
05/01/11 05:10 AM
05/01/11 05:10 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
Nothing that passes a “valid objection/response here either. Just more obliviousness, quibblings, arbitrary selectiveness and, of course, mindless obfuscating. You just can’t take all pertinent issues/elements into consideration when defending your view, but must remain indifferently one-sided.


This is a typical response. Whenever the discussion turns to something substantive, you resort to insults, sarcasm, and such like. I responded to every word you wrote, and this is your response.

Disappointing, but not unexpected.

Quote:
If you can't see why post #133034, and, logically in its fuller context than just that first explaining paragraph, resolves this issue here then you're are at least clinically blind.


I expected this as well. There's nothing in what Ellen White wrote that would lead to the conclusion you wrote. She said nothing along the lines of what you wrote, so of course you can't explain it.

Quote:
Can't help you there. Or... as self-evident, you just slight-of-handly obliviously switched the actual issue at hand here which was stemming from kland’s excising mal-quoting.


There's no explanation possible to your statement, which explains why you dodge the question.


Quote:
T:If, at every turn, you feel the need to resort to sarcasm and insults, that speaks to a feeling of inferiority, a sense of doubt.

NJK:As they say, “ignorance is bliss” and as, at least, you don’t care to engage in thorough and proper exegesis, it does not bother you to glibly respond to issues here.


Same comment as above. You have no answer to the questions asked, so you resort to dodging, name-calling, sarcasm, insults, etc. Too bad.

Quote:
It does to me, especially when your shallow reasoning, readings and comments just add layers of dirt upon the issue, that I then have to waste my time unspinning and clearing up. That, fundamentally is the source of all of my frustrations in this discussion with you and why this conversation is both aggravating and frustrating to me; and thus, recursively, whenever this substantive indifference and obliviousness from your side once again manifests itself" no longer [worthwhile[/u]. The fact that you are a Seminarian, and thus should be able to properly engage exegesis causes me to be suckered back into this discussion “black hole” in regards pointedly your responses. I’ll just have to defaultly discount that ‘beautiful fig leaves’ facade, for my own “sanity's” sake... Indeed my head hurts from it repeatedly having been slam against this suddenly recurring wall. It’s all as futile as thinking to solve a calculus problem with 8th grade algebra. Of course, I don’t expect you to see/admit to/agree with this, but since I do, I cannot again go against my conscience here. Your amnesic “dense forest despite all of the felled trees” attitude, if not, "posturing", is what really irks me the most.


This is more of the same. Not one point made in any way regarding what we're discussing. Not one. Just childish name-calling, ranting, etc. Why do you bother posting this rubbish?

If you decide you would like to post civilly, and either make points having to do with what we're discussing, or ask questions, or respond to questions, I'll be happy to participate in such a discussion with you. Otherwise you can see if you have better luck discussing things with kland, or someone else. But the same thing will apply there, as well. Anyone you converse with will want you to

1.Be civil.
2.Avoid insults and sarcasm.
3.Write clearly.
4.Address questions.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #133105
05/01/11 05:36 AM
05/01/11 05:36 AM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
As usual, it's whatever you can/want to see/understand. How you choose to view/characterize my reaction/response does not change anything from their underlying reasons/causes. Again it's best to cut off this source of my aggravations here.

As it can easily be copiously demonstrated, I paramountly expect people to be Exegetical in a Biblical discussion, and all that this exhaustively entails. It's too bad you can't/won't.

It is also quite comical that you are accusing me of ‘dodging your substantive questions’ (which are actually glib obfuscations at best) when you just patently ignore my exegetical points. Whatever.... As usual you can do nothing wrong.

I hear the potential millions of people who will be glad I stopped wasting my time with you in this actually not really/prominently worthwhile discussion, and I am glad to indeed do so at the risk of letting your false accusations even begin to seem plausible.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #133111
05/01/11 06:53 PM
05/01/11 06:53 PM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Quote:
[Whenever the discussion turns to something substantive, you resort to insults, sarcasm, and such like.]

...As per your “reminder”, you have not provided a response to the key substantive and exegetical point made in Post #133009.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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