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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #134197
06/06/11 01:06 PM
06/06/11 01:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
T:So there are quite a few examples of God presenting Himself as doing that which He permits.

M:And there are quite a few accounts of Jesus actually doing what the Bible said He did.

T: You mean as a contrast to the accounts where Jesus *didn't* actually do what the Bible said He did?! If not, it's difficult to understand what you mean here. If this is indeed your intent, I don't think this is well put. I think always Jesus did what the Bible says He did, and that often He is said to have done that which He permits is a better way of putting this. Perhaps what you mean is sometimes God does these things directly (by permission), whereas other times it's directly (God does them Himself, or by means of angels). If this is what you mean, how would you distinguish between these two incidents? (direct ones and indirect ones).

No, I don't think the two different means of meting out punishment represent "contrasts" per se. "The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits." {GC 614.2} Regarding the plagues, she also wrote:

Quote:
This is the sharpest experience I have ever had in a carriage in a storm. . . . I thought of the day when the judgment of God would be poured out upon the world, when blackness and horrible darkness would clothe the heavens as sackcloth of hair. . . . My imagination anticipated what it must be in that period when the Lord's mighty voice shall give commission to His angels, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." {Mar 284.4}

Already God's angels are at work in judgment, and the Spirit of God is gradually leaving the world. . . To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. . . The command is, "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." Saith God, "I will recompense their way upon their head." {TM 431.3}

The words will soon be spoken, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." One of the ministers of vengeance declares. "And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because Thou hast judged thus." These heavenly beings, in executing the mandate of God, ask no questions, but do as they are bid. Jehovah of hosts, the Lord God Almighty, the just, the true, and the holy, has given them their work to do. With unswerving fidelity they go forth panoplied in pure white linen, having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And when their task is done, when the last vial of God's wrath is poured out, they return and lay their emptied vials at the feet of the Lord. {TM 432.1}

It is clear in these passages it is holy angels who will cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues. Seems to me though you believe Ellen intended for us to interpret these kinds of passages to mean holy angels will permit evil angels to pour out the vials of God's wrath and that all they do is work to ensure they do not exceed the limits established by Jesus.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #134201
06/06/11 01:27 PM
06/06/11 01:27 PM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, you say that in the past you have plainly stated who caused fire to blaze out from the presence of God in the most holy place and burned N&A alive. For the life of me I cannot recall what you said about it. For the record, would you please state it again here and now? I know you believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits His enemies, within the limits He imposes on them, to punish and destroy impenitent sinners. But in the case of N&A I have absolutely no idea who you believe caused fire to blaze out from the presence of God in the most holy place and burned them alive. Regarding the punishment and death of N&A, Ellen wrote:


I've said quite a few times I don't think this matters, that looking at all these incidents one by one isn't fruitful. Regarding this one, either:

1.God actively set them on fire, as a punishment, because they worshiped Him in a way which He didn't approve of.

2.They couldn't abide God's physical presence, and burst into flames, in such a way as you perceive the wicked will be destroyed by Jesus' coming (i.e., your idea that sinful flesh cannot stand the radiant light of God's glory; I forget just how you put it).

3.Something unspecified happened, and God was presented as doing that which He permitted.

Consider this statement by EGW, for example:

Quote:
Nadab and Abihu were slain by the fire of God's wrath for their intemperance in the use of wine.


This certainly looks like type 3. I don't know anyone who thinks that God it was God's direct purpose to destroy N&A by fire chiefly or solely because of their intemperance in the use of wine.

Quote:
M:In the ST July 17, 1884 passage I quoted above she makes it clear it was Jesus who employed fire to burn N&A alive. Nothing she said implies it was someone else who did it.


Often God is presented in inspiration as doing that which He permits. The whole point in my making the point is that since this is the case, the mere fact that God is presented as directly doing something does not mean that God is necessarily actively doing that thing He is presented as doing.

Quote:
M:It also clear she believed it was Jesus who commanded King Saul to utterly kill every man, woman, child, and infant and then rejected him as king because he refused to obey every detail of the command. According to you, however, this isn’t something Jesus would do.


Here we get to the same point, again, that God is often presented as doing that which He permits. I would say that genocide is not God's ideal will. Do you disagree?

Quote:
M:To answer your questions:

1. What in Jesus' life or character would lead you to believe that He wants to burn people alive if they don't do what He says? Jesus said, “The angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”


Since even you don't believe this is literal, unless you've changed your mind, it doesn't make sense that this statement of Jesus would lead you to believe that Jesus wants to burn people alive if they don't do what He says.

Quote:
2. Where did He ever do anything even remotely similar to this? He didn’t burn anyone alive while here in the flesh.


I take this as "nowhere."

Given that the "whole purpose" of Jesus' earthly mission was the revelation of God, and nowhere did He even remotely do anything similar to A, we should be able to conclude, given that everything we can know about God was revealed by Jesus Christ, that, at a minimum, A is not according to God's ideal will.

Quote:
3. How did He respond when it was suggested He do so? He rebuked them.

4. Where during His mission did Jesus ever even physically harm any person, even in the slightest manner? He didn’t. But He clearly taught He will, at the end of time, punish impenitent sinners with everlasting, unquenchable fire. “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire. I will burn you up with unquenchable fire.”


To respond succinctly, it looks to me that to have the viewpoint you are espousing, one would need an inconsistent view of Jesus' ministry, where He lived in one way, but taught another. But Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
What He taught, He lived. “I have given you an example,” He said to His disciples, “that ye should do as I have done.” “I have kept my Father’s commandments.” John 13:15; 15:10. Thus in His life, Christ’s words had perfect illustration and support. And more than this; what He taught, He was. His words were the expression, not only of His own life experience, but of His own character. Not only did He teach the truth, but He was the truth. It was this that gave His teaching power. {PM 266.4}


Let's look at this last part:

Quote:
(W)hat He taught, He was. His words were the expression, not only of His own life experience, but of His own character. Not only did He teach the truth, but He was the truth. It was this that gave His teaching power.


Given this, and given the fact that all we can know of God was revealed by Jesus Christ, plus that this was the purpose of His earthly mission, it's clear that simply by considering the life of Jesus Christ we can determine:

1.The truth.
2.His own character.
3.What He taught.

and by extrapolation, God's character.

For example:

Quote:
We are to observe carefully every lesson Christ has given throughout His life and teaching. He does not destroy; He improves whatever He touches.—Letter 135, 1897. {1SM 118.1}


Every lesson Christ gave throughout His life taught two things:

1.He does not destroy.
2.He improves everything He touches.

We have many examples of this. For example, in order for Lazarus to die, it was necessary for Christ to depart. This echoes the thought that sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power.

To reiterate the above, there is a consistency between what Jesus lived and taught. What He taught, He was. So simply looking at what Jesus was is sufficient to know that truth about God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #134215
06/06/11 06:52 PM
06/06/11 06:52 PM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
M: Good one. It would have also been obvious in the tone of his voice (for those listening but who could not see his face). What is your point?

T: I was giving this as an analogy to the counsels given by God. God has given counsels in relation to things which were not His idea will. God's giving this counsel can be misconstrued as His giving approval to the given event. For example, we are having discussions in this forum regarding polygamy on this very point.

M:Actually, on this thread, I am interested in your answer as it applies to Jesus commanding Moses to kill ungodly people.


I don't think this is a good approach, for reasons I've explained on numerous occasions.

Quote:
What was Jesus’ ideal will in the cases of the Sabbath-breaker and the Blasphemer?


How did Jesus treat the woman caught in adultery?

Quote:
Please post inspired passages to support your view, that is, passages which speak directly to these two cases (as opposed to you citing other examples and insisting the “principle” applies). Thank you.


I disagree with the approach you are suggesting.

When Jesus Christ came, the whole purpose of His mission was the revelation of God. It is by studying what He lived and taught during His mission that we arrive at the truth as to what God is like.

The difference in how we view things is in how we view God, and we view God differently because of the approach we take here (this isn't the only reason we view God differently, but it is a reason).

My belief is that we arrive at the truth about God by observing what Christ lived and taught, not by looking at OT incidents. Given this is my belief, why would I want to look at OT incidents? I don't believe this will get the job done.

How Jesus Christ treated the woman caught in adultery is a clear revelation of God's will in regards to the incidents you are asking about.

Quote:
“All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.” {8T 286.1} The explanation I gave regarding this insight is valid.


What explanation? Why does this statement need explanation? It seems very clear.

Quote:
M:It does not disagree with her point.


Then why make it? Why not just accept her statement?

Quote:
The idea that “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now” should be interpreted to mean Jesus “did in fact reveal to them” everything there is to know about God’s character and kingdom seems rather contradictory.


Why? You seem to be totally contradicting yourself.

We have a clear statement, at least, it seems clear to me, that all that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son. You bring up this statement by Jesus Christ, that there were things which He could not say to the disciples before He died because they could not bear them. I don't see what this statement has to do with anything. How does this statement shed any light on the fact that all that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son?

All I can see in what you're writing is that:

A.You disagree with what Ellen White wrote.
B.You are explaining why.

Your explanation runs like this:

1.Jesus said to His disciples that there were things He had to say to them which they could not bear.
2.Therefore Jesus Christ did not reveal all that they could know of God.
3.Therefore Ellen White's statement needs to be amended.

If this isn't your line of reasoning, then what is?

Also, I gave an explanation of why there is no contradiction here, by pointing out that Jesus' words had to do with His death, and that His revelation of God includes His death. So by referring to words stated *before* Christ's death, you're leaving out a key part of His revelation, which isn't fair.

You didn't respond to this.

Quote:
In particular, do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to stone the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer to death? Or, do you suspect Moses misunderstood what Jesus said? I ask these questions because in the Bible it says:

1. “And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.”

2. “And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.”

Is there any reason why we cannot take the Bible as it reads? That is, are we not obligated to read these two passages and logically conclude Jesus did indeed “command” Moses to kill them? Please don’t misunderstand the question. I’m not asking what Jesus’ ideal will was in these two cases. Hopefully you will address this aspect of the situation in the first response above.


I don't think an examination of incidents in the OT is the way to go about understanding God's character. I've explained why.

Quote:
T: Of course God allows evil things to happen in response to the choices FMA's make. That's the whole point of GC 35-37. Evil, in general, is *always* contrary to God's will, and always in response to choices FMA's have made contrary to God's will. How could it be otherwise?

M:No one suffered or died in ways not permitted by Jesus in the examples you cited above.


Why does this need to be mentioned?

Quote:
M:More to the point, Jesus worked hard to ensure evil men and evil angels did not exceed the limits He imposed on them.


What in the GC text gives you this idea?

Quote:
M:Consequently, they suffered and died in the ways they did because it was Jesus’ ideal will (under the times and circumstances) as opposed to them suffering and dying in other ways.


What in the GC text gives you this idea? In actual fact, it wasn't Jesus' ideal will that they suffer or die at all. This was His permissive will.

Quote:
M:Of all the ways people can suffer and die, Jesus chose which ways He was willing to permit evil men and evil angels to cause them to suffer and die.


"Permit" = permissive will.

Quote:
M:Which begs the question – Why didn’t Jesus work to prevent it?


We know why. The text tells us why. The Jews caused God to remove His protection.

Quote:
There are a million ways Jesus could have employed, without violating freewill, to prevent the cases of suffering and death you named above.


There's no hint of this in the text. Why do you think what you are asserting is the case?

The difficulty I see with how you see things is the perspective, which looks to have God as responsible for what happened. It appears to me this is necessary to your view, because otherwise God wouldn't be "in control," which looks to be very important to you.

How I perceive things is how GC 35-37 reads; which is that God was caused to remove His protection, and Satan sought, and seeks, to hide his own work by blaming God for what he himself is doing. I see the whole GC boils down to Satan's attempt to misrepresent God's character as being his own. Satan needs to be in control, is concerned with his own glory, has a dark side, has hidden agendas, is severe and harsh, and not concerned with the interests of others. God, on the other hand, is none of these things, but completely selfless and humble. Because God is so un-like ourselves, we have great difficulty understanding Him and His purposes, ascribing things to Him which aren't there, because of how we ourselves would act if we were in His place.

In Jesus Christ, we see how God really is; how selfless, disinterested, harmless, and humble He is ("disinterested" means not concerned with His own interests).

Quote:
M:The fact Satan will influence Sunday-keepers in future to kill Sabbath-keepers is not an argument against the fact Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people.

T: I didn't ask this. Here's what I asked: “1. If we take the point of view that God is pleased to have Sabbath-breakers killed, why wouldn't we kill them now? 2. Is it just because we're not living in a theocracy? 3. The question of killing law-breakers is an important issue coming up in the last days before Christ's second coming. 4. We know that Satan will use this very argument against those who keep God's commandments, that they should be killed.”

1. Because Jesus no longer requires it. 2. I suspect that is partly why. 3. True. 4. True.

What is your point as it relates to Jesus commanding Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker?


My point was that the point of view we take in regards to this question influences what actions we may take now, and in the future.

Quote:
Do you really think insisting that I read between the lines will ensure I arrive at the correct conclusion? Please, Tom, for the millioneth time, do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer?


You're looking for a simple answer to what's not a simple question. Say one were to ask if the father in the father/hunter story was commanding his son to hunt humanely, how would you answer that?

Quote:
For example, did the Gospels ever portray Jesus causing death and destruction that in reality He merely permitted others to do? I make this observation and ask this question because you say the Father behaved in the OT in the exact same way Jesus did in the Gospels and vice versa. But where in the Gospels did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people?

T: Exactly!!!

M:Your enthusiatic response does not help me understand your answer to the question


Really? Why not? If Jesus never commanded godly people to kill ungodly people during His earthly mission, the whole purpose of which was the revelation of God, why wouldn't this help you understand the answer to your question? It seems to me it should.

Quote:
Did Jesus, while here in the flesh, command godly people to kill ungodly people? If not, why did He do so in the OT?


If Jesus didn't do so in the NT, why would you think He would do so in the Old?

Quote:
T: I've responded to this at great, great length. The many posts in regards to the father/hunter relate to this question.

M:None of your responses provide enough insight for me to correctly conclude what you believe.


I believe Jesus illustrated God's ideal will. See how He dealt with the woman caught in adultery.

Quote:
M:Please plainly state what you believe. The humane hunter story does not help me understand why Jesus commanded Moses to kill ungodly people.


Why not? It's an analogous situation.

Quote:
M:I suspect you believe, yes, Jesus did indeed command Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Is this what you believe? Or, have I somehow misunderstood what you believe? Please explain. Thank you.


I asked you above how you would answer the question if the father in the father/hunter story was commanding his son to hunt humanely. I'll see how you answer that.

Quote:
M:Also, I don’t see a legitimate comparison between Jesus commanding godly people to kill ungodly people and the anti-hunting father commanding his pro-hunting son to kill animals humanely.

T: Ok, this is a good follow-up. The reason it is a legitimate comparison is because in both cases there is the question of the will of the person speaking being misunderstood.

M: Are you somehow hinting at the idea that Jesus did indeed command Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer?

T: There's no hinting here at anything.

M:Was it Jesus’ will for Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer? If not, why, then, did He “command” Moses to kill them?


Jesus' will was demonstrated in how He dealt with the woman caught in adultery. Regarding the "why not," consider the cases of polygamy, divorce, and slavery.

Quote:
M:Was Moses determined to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the Blasphemer? If so, why did he inquire of Jesus as to the right and righteous way to punish them? And, why didn’t Jesus express His ideal will when Moses was uncertain what to do?


For the same reason He didn't do so for the cases of slavery, polygamy and divorce.

Quote:
T: If we take the point of view that God is pleased to have Sabbath-breakers killed, why wouldn't we kill them now?

M:Interesting you bring this point up. Ellen wrote, “In our day there are many who reject the creation Sabbath as a Jewish institution and urge that if it is to be kept, the penalty of death must be inflicted for its violation; but we see that blasphemy received the same punishment as did Sabbathbreaking. Shall we therefore conclude that the third commandment also is to be set aside as applicable only to the Jews? Yet the argument drawn from the death penalty applies to the third, the fifth, and indeed to nearly all the ten precepts, equally with the fourth. Though God may not now punish the transgression of His law with temporal penalties, yet His word declares that the wages of sin is death; and in the final execution of the judgment it will be found that death is the portion of those who violate His sacred precepts. {PP 409.2}

T: This doesn't address my question. I haven't made the argument if the Sabbath needs to be kept, then Sabbath-breakers should be killed.

M:Your question seems to imply God isn’t in favor of executing Sabbath-breakers in accordance with the laws regulating and requiring capital punishment.

T: God isn't in favor of executing anybody. He is in favor of saving them. He gave His Son to save them.

M: However, the passage quoted above makes it clear that He is.

T: Jesus Christ made clear God's will was to save.

Yes, of course, it is God’s will and desire to save everyone. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

You and I both know and believe the majority will not be saved. What is unclear to me is if you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the Blasphemer. Jesus “will by no means clear the guilty.”


You still haven't answered my question (See above, first sentence).

M:Also, the point begs the question, a question you have thus far refused to answer, namely, do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer?

T: I pointed out to you that you didn't address my question, and you utter falsehoods, and continue not to address the question.

Quote:
M:The title of this thread is – “Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?” I have no idea what your answer is to this question. The only thing you’ve said so far is that the Bible often portrays Jesus saying or doing something which is contrary to His will and desire. From this insight you insist that I deduce your answer to the question that serves as title for this thread. It would save a lot time and energy if you would simply, clearly, plainly answer the question (rather than relying on me to deduce what you believe based on the clues you've posted thus far).

Quote:
1. Where in the OT did Jesus explain to the Jews things as you see them (as they relate to the title of this thread)?

2. Where in the NT did Jesus categorically condemn capital punishment?

Please answer the two questions posted above. Thank you.


1.Throughout His ministry. For example, on the Sermon on the Mount. Also Jesus Christ's treatment of the woman caught in adultery. Also His response to the disciples urging Him to destroy the Samaritans.

2.To see God's ideal will, see Christ's treatment of the woman caught in adultery. Also please note that I've made no statements regarding capital punishment in general, just statements in regards to God's character and actions in regards to His using violence as a means of accomplishing His will.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #134219
06/06/11 09:09 PM
06/06/11 09:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, thank you for the two responses above. Before I address them, however, I'll give you a chance to catch up:

134194
134196
134197

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #134394
06/11/11 03:14 PM
06/11/11 03:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Bump for Tom.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #134615
06/19/11 04:30 AM
06/19/11 04:30 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Laval, Quebec
More Biblical evidence/testimony that the Plagues of Egypt was a formal and compensatory/retributive judgement (i.e, both a criminal and civil procedure):

Originally Posted By: Bible Gen 15:13 & 14
God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #134955
07/04/11 01:27 PM
07/04/11 01:27 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project (Post #133586)
where in the Bible does it actually state, i.e., as a Law, that Sabbath-Breakers should be put to death??


I have just found the answer to this previous question of mine... Exod 31:14, 15. Still the Num 15:32-36 episode occurred after this Law and both Moses and then God deliberated before enforcing this penalty. The reason manifestly is, based on the following verses in Num 15:37-41 because this person had apparently forgotten this penalty, and may have been doing this stick gathering out of an emergency need, not having properly prepared on “Friday”, and apparently to avert this nonetheless costly forgetfulness in the future, then here also instructed Israel through Moses to make ‘blue law-reminding tassels’ (cf. Deut 22:12).

Thus, as the death penalty for Sabbath Breaking was legislatively binding, then my two, thus now non-hypothetical comments in that Post #133586 is indeed the one that is Biblically valid.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #134965
07/04/11 03:04 PM
07/04/11 03:04 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline

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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: NJK Project (Post #133586)
where in the Bible does it actually state, i.e., as a Law, that Sabbath-Breakers should be put to death??


I have just found the answer to this previous question of mine... Exod 31:14, 15. Still the Num 15:32-36 episode occurred after this Law and both Moses and then God deliberated before enforcing this penalty. The reason manifestly is, based on the following verses in Num 15:37-41 because this person had apparently forgotten this penalty, and may have been doing this stick gathering out of an emergency need, not having properly prepared on “Friday”, and apparently to avert this nonetheless costly forgetfulness in the future, then here also instructed Israel through Moses to make ‘blue law-reminding tassels’ (cf. Deut 22:12).

Thus, as the death penalty for Sabbath Breaking was legislatively binding, then my two, thus now non-hypothetical comments in that Post #133586 is indeed the one that is Biblically valid.


NJK,

The Sabbath breaker in the wilderness who was stoned had not "forgotten" the Sabbath. Not at all.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Soon after the return into the wilderness, an instance of Sabbath violation occurred, under circumstances that rendered it a case of peculiar guilt. The Lord's announcement that He would disinherit Israel had roused a spirit of rebellion. One of the people, angry at being excluded from Canaan, and determined to show his defiance of God's law, ventured upon the open transgression of the fourth commandment by going out to gather sticks upon the Sabbath. During the sojourn in the wilderness the kindling of fires upon the seventh day had been strictly prohibited. The prohibition was not to extend to the land of Canaan, where the severity of the climate would often render fires a necessity; but in the wilderness, fire was not needed for warmth. The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption. {PP 408.4}

He was taken in the act and brought before Moses. It had already been declared that Sabbathbreaking should be punished with death, but it had not yet been revealed how the penalty was to be inflicted. The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Numbers 15:35. The sins of blasphemy and willful Sabbathbreaking received the same punishment, being equally an expression of contempt for the authority of God. {PP 409.1}

In our day there are many who reject the creation Sabbath as a Jewish institution and urge that if it is to be kept, the penalty of death must be inflicted for its violation; but we see that blasphemy received the same punishment as did Sabbathbreaking. Shall we therefore conclude that the third commandment also is to be set aside as applicable only to the Jews? Yet the argument drawn from the death penalty applies to the third, the fifth, and indeed to nearly all the ten precepts, equally with the fourth. Though God may not now punish the transgression of His law with temporal penalties, yet His word declares that the wages of sin is death; and in the final execution of the judgment it will be found that death is the portion of those who violate His sacred precepts. {PP 409.2}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson

Error is never harmless. It never sanctifies, but always brings confusion and dissension. -- Ellen White

The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. ...Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." -- Ellen White
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Green Cochoa] #134970
07/04/11 03:58 PM
07/04/11 03:58 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Laval, Quebec
Interesting EGW “support.” I did not notice/know that she said this. However it is actually not “final”/definite. As stated in my post, I am paramountly trying to reconcile the Biblical fact of a deliberation by both Moses and then God on what should have been a clear cut and “sure” death sentence issue. To me this EGW statement may simply have been “with/according to her understanding” and not necessarily “by Divine commission/authority.” (Cf. in this post for explanation of this potentially applicable difference). I’ve seen several corrections by EGW for even such seemingly authoritative pronouncements.

Nonetheless, harmonizing the Biblical data and EGW, this “presumption” may have been from having forgotten to make the needed preparations the day before and so he “presumed” to go and gather this wood on that Sabbath. Or it may have been just after the sun had set on Friday evening and he “presumed” he could do this last chores/task despite the Sabbath time having already started.

As this may have been his cited excuse to Moses, that may be why Moses opted to consult God on this, nonetheless, Sabbath violation and God in turn would have deliberated on this, judicially deciding on the death penalty, even if merely for an object lesson reason. Interestingly enough, I don’t hear of another case like with at least that wilderness generation. (The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were similarly also destroyed for object lesson reasons, as seen by the fact that God has not repeated that judgement though the sin is still practised.

Last edited by NJK Project; 07/04/11 04:07 PM.

“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #134971
07/04/11 04:22 PM
07/04/11 04:22 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline

Group: Admin Team
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,792
The Orient
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Interesting EGW “support.” I did not notice/know that she said this. However it is actually not “final”/definite. As stated in my post, I am paramountly trying to reconcile the Biblical fact of a deliberation by both Moses and then God on what should have been a clear cut and “sure” death sentence issue. To me this EGW statement may simply have been “with/according to her understanding” and not necessarily “by Divine commission/authority.” (Cf. in this post for explanation of this potentially applicable difference). I’ve seen several corrections by EGW for even such seemingly authoritative pronouncements.

Nonetheless, harmonizing the Biblical data and EGW, this “presumption” may have been from having forgotten to make the needed preparations the day before and so he “presumed” to go and gather this wood on that Sabbath. Or it may have been just after the sun had set on Friday evening and he “presumed” he could do this last chores/task despite the Sabbath time having already started.

As this may have been his cited excuse to Moses, that may be why Moses opted to consult God on this, nonetheless, Sabbath violation and God in turn would have deliberated on this, judicially deciding on the death penalty, even if merely for an object lesson reason. Interestingly enough, I don’t hear of another case like with at least that wilderness generation. (The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were similarly also destroyed for object lesson reasons, as seen by the fact that God has not repeated that judgement though the sin is still practised.
I see. So, EGW is right so long as she agrees with what you have already stated, and you are right once you have stated it, making her "presumptuous" from then on. It is just as she herself has said.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Our Words Influence Us.--The words are more than an indication of character; they have power to react on the character. Men are influenced by their own words. Often under a momentary impulse, prompted by Satan, they give utterance to jealousy or evil surmising, expressing that which they do not really believe; but the expression reacts on the thoughts. They are deceived by their words and come to believe that true which was spoken at Satan's instigation. Having once expressed an opinion or decision, they are often too proud to retract it, and try to prove themselves in the right, until they come to believe that they are. {2MCP 575.2}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson

Error is never harmless. It never sanctifies, but always brings confusion and dissension. -- Ellen White

The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. ...Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." -- Ellen White
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