HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina, Nelson
1323 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,189
Posts195,525
Members1,323
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
Rick H 16
kland 15
Daryl 4
March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Member Spotlight
Kevin H
Kevin H
New York
Posts: 625
Joined: November 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
3 registered members (Karen Y, 2 invisible), 2,795 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 3 of 18 1 2 3 4 5 17 18
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Mountain Man] #134818
06/28/11 04:19 PM
06/28/11 04:19 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
That is, A&E were created that way with the ability to produce the subtle differences that exist today. The same thing, no doubt, is true of the subtle differences reflected within the same and different races. For example, the differences in eye shape and color, nose size and shapes, hair color and type, ear size and shapes, etc. All of these variations, differences existed within the DNA code of A&E and manifested themselves, perhaps randomly, as the human family grew. As such, they do not reflect sin or a curse.

Well said, and I agree with this. However, many evolutionists would disagree. Even against evidence otherwise. I recall reading about aphids becoming resistant to a pesticide. They had some populations from before (elsewhere, preserved, whatever), and discovered the resistant gene was already present in those from years prior to the pesticide. This indicated they (the population) always had that gene and the pesticide merely selected against those who didn't have it.

However, sin and a curse can mess with the genes and that will be added to the genome.

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa] #134819
06/28/11 04:21 PM
06/28/11 04:21 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
What, then, was "amalgamation?"
Could she be using a more general sense of the word and the specific details could be different for man than for beast?

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: kland] #134822
06/28/11 04:59 PM
06/28/11 04:59 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
That is, A&E were created that way with the ability to produce the subtle differences that exist today. The same thing, no doubt, is true of the subtle differences reflected within the same and different races. For example, the differences in eye shape and color, nose size and shapes, hair color and type, ear size and shapes, etc. All of these variations, differences existed within the DNA code of A&E and manifested themselves, perhaps randomly, as the human family grew. As such, they do not reflect sin or a curse.

Well said, and I agree with this. However, many evolutionists would disagree. Even against evidence otherwise. I recall reading about aphids becoming resistant to a pesticide. They had some populations from before (elsewhere, preserved, whatever), and discovered the resistant gene was already present in those from years prior to the pesticide. This indicated they (the population) always had that gene and the pesticide merely selected against those who didn't have it.

However, sin and a curse can mess with the genes and that will be added to the genome.

I would agree with most of it. The part I would be uncomfortable with is specifically any part that did not involve God's original creation, e.g. amalgamation. I don't believe any portion of genetic variation which might have descended from God's original creation would have been "sin." "Amalgamation" clearly created races of men (in the mind of Ellen White) and was clearly "sinful." The obvious conclusion, then, is that there are aspects to our modern genetics which were not part of the original Creation, i.e. Adam and Eve.

When God put a mark upon Cain, we are not told what that mark was. We do know, however, that it was on account of his sin, murder, that he received it. And we know also that it changed his appearance. Significantly. God, doing things thoroughly as He usually does, would not have found it difficult nor unreasonable to have actually adjusted Cain's genes. This, too, would not have been a part of the original creation.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa] #134853
06/30/11 10:47 PM
06/30/11 10:47 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
"Amalgamation" clearly created races of men (in the mind of Ellen White) and was clearly "sinful."
Actually, the statement was, "Since the flood, there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {1SP 78.2} "

Again, could she be using a more general sense of the word and the specific details could be different for man than for beast?

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: kland] #134892
07/02/11 07:16 PM
07/02/11 07:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Did Noah and his boys or their wives carry the marked genes of Cain? Or, did the mark of Cain die with Cain? The post-Flood amalgamation that resulted in "certain races of men" is not the result of scientists uniting animal and human genes in a laboratory. Hopefully we can agree on this point. Therefore, we are left with two options (I'm sure somebody else can think of other options) - 1) "certain races of men" are a result of natural copulation, and 2) "certain races of men" are a result of genetic manipulation in laboratories.

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Mountain Man] #134954
07/04/11 02:12 PM
07/04/11 02:12 PM
V
voktar  Offline
New Member (Starting to Post)
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2
Ohio, United States
The best answers to the amalgamation controversy that I know of can be found in the book, "Dinosaurs - An Adventist View" by David C. Read (most specifically the chapter entitled defending the amalgamation theory).
It seems evident that Ellen White used the word amalgamation in three different contexts:
1. What Satan did in creating noxious herbs and tares.
2. What the antedeluvians did, which constituted the 'one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood.'
3. What happened after the flood, without any mention of a specific Satanic or human agency involved.

Read proposes that the amalgamation which happened after the flood was due to 'horizontal genetic transfer' resulting to a large degree in the rapid speciation and diversification of animal and human life.

Read also proposes that the wicked antedeluvians did indeed possess genetic engineering capability resulting in the amalgamated creatures singled out to be destroyed in the flood. The great violent monster dinosaurs fell into this category. Many of them were genetic mixtures of created kinds. Most often mixtures of egg laying animals such that the engineering could take place outside of the body by tampering with the eggs. (ie. reptiles and birds etc) They were specifically bred for wicked purposes and threatened to over-run the created kinds making them extinct - hence God placed the created kinds on the ark to prevent their extinction.

Finally, there was nothing to prohibit the antedeluvians from tampering with human genetics in a similar way as well. In fact, given their completely superior knowledge, intellect, and longevity (as well as their advanced wickedness) - we would fully expect them to do this. This would have been the sin above all others that called for their destruction (not just intermarrying with unbelievers).



Last edited by voktar; 07/04/11 02:13 PM.
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: voktar] #134956
07/04/11 02:31 PM
07/04/11 02:31 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: voktar
The best answers to the amalgamation controversy that I know of can be found in the book, "Dinosaurs - An Adventist View" by David C. Read (most specifically the chapter entitled defending the amalgamation theory).
It seems evident that Ellen White used the word amalgamation in three different contexts:
1. What Satan did in creating noxious herbs and tares.
2. What the antedeluvians did, which constituted the 'one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood.'
3. What happened after the flood, without any mention of a specific Satanic or human agency involved.

Read proposes that the amalgamation which happened after the flood was due to 'horizontal genetic transfer' resulting to a large degree in the rapid speciation and diversification of animal and human life.

Read also proposes that the wicked antedeluvians did indeed possess genetic engineering capability resulting in the amalgamated creatures singled out to be destroyed in the flood. The great violent monster dinosaurs fell into this category. Many of them were genetic mixtures of created kinds. Most often mixtures of egg laying animals such that the engineering could take place outside of the body by tampering with the eggs. (ie. reptiles and birds etc) They were specifically bred for wicked purposes and threatened to over-run the created kinds making them extinct - hence God placed the created kinds on the ark to prevent their extinction.

Finally, there was nothing to prohibit the antedeluvians from tampering with human genetics in a similar way as well. In fact, given their completely superior knowledge, intellect, and longevity (as well as their advanced wickedness) - we would fully expect them to do this. This would have been the sin above all others that called for their destruction (not just intermarrying with unbelievers).


Voktar,

You bring up some good points. And welcome to the forum!

I'm not exactly sure what the "horizontal genetic transfer" might refer to, or why it would have been a sin. There must always be a "transgression" of God's law to be called "sin." It is not my belief that it was a transgression to marry or to have children. Mrs. White even tells us this. It was not the mere fact of the "marriages" before the flood that made the antediluvians so sinful. Marriage is lawful.

So we have to find some other aspect that was unlawful. Furthermore, if God created all the genes in the gene pool, and then made marriage lawful, even commanding that mankind be "fruitful and multiply," it would be a rather unfair God which would then call it a sin when the genetics began to take on natural variations after some generations. Someone needs to help me see how it could be a sin for a human to marry a human who happened to have a different set of genes. In fact, if such actually were a sin, I think we should all be marrying our siblings and first-cousins, right? To marry outside of the family would be to encourage greater genetic diversity. If this sort of thing is "amalgamation," then it is sin.

Obviously, that cannot be the best conclusion here.

Regarding the antediluvians tampering with genetics, I believe you are on to something there. Certainly they were more brilliant and longer-lived than our modern scientists, and look what our scientists do today?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: voktar] #134957
07/04/11 02:34 PM
07/04/11 02:34 PM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Great points on this issue, voktar. I don’t particularly understand the first proposal that well (perhaps you can elaborate/explain) but the last two make great sense to me. (Cf. here)

It further seems to me that EGW was only shown a final picture representation of this but was not given those underlying scientific facts as to how it was achieved. However, once again, science confirms the SOP view.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Mountain Man] #134958
07/04/11 02:37 PM
07/04/11 02:37 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did Noah and his boys or their wives carry the marked genes of Cain? Or, did the mark of Cain die with Cain? The post-Flood amalgamation that resulted in "certain races of men" is not the result of scientists uniting animal and human genes in a laboratory. Hopefully we can agree on this point. Therefore, we are left with two options (I'm sure somebody else can think of other options) - 1) "certain races of men" are a result of natural copulation, and 2) "certain races of men" are a result of genetic manipulation in laboratories.

It is my belief that Ham's wife was a descendant of Cain. Their son, perhaps having an appearance like Cain, was named "Cainan." He is the one whom Noah cursed with slavery and servanthood. It is readily apparent when looking at history how much this curse has indeed been fulfilled. Yes, there have been slaves of every race. But if you were to take a survey of which race, above all others, was thought to have been most subjected to slavery, I think blacks would be selected the majority of the time. This curse dates all the way back to Noah.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa] #134959
07/04/11 02:54 PM
07/04/11 02:54 PM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
But if you were to take a survey of which race, above all others, was thought to have been most subjected to slavery, I think blacks would be selected the majority of the time. This curse dates all the way back to Noah.


A sort of “self-fulfilling prophecy” as the enslavement of black people was largely due to this “Biblical” belief. Nonetheless, I do not necessarily see it as a “racial curse”, but a “descendants curse” and if most of Cainan’s descendants formed the black race, that is the pointed reason why it applied. And if God can actively/deliberately keep the descendant of Esau, to this day even, in a state of slow progress as a curse for Esau’s rejection/snubbing of the Israel blessing (Mal 1:2-5), then He can, and probably has, kept the, actually anterior to Esau, descendants of Cainan, (whoever the entirely are), in a state where other races would see them as prime candidates for enslavement. And black people, by being probably the most visible racial group of these descendants, probably have unfairly be imposed the entirety of this curse.

That, of course, does not mean that racial or “descendants” slavery should Biblically be reinstituted. I think by now any curse here has been fulfilled, and in some way, as with any pronouncement of God, just like the descendants of Esau served in time to keep in check, and help end, the medieval reign of Catholic Church, the enslavement of the (or at least some) of the descendant of Cainan probably had some GC positive contribution, which I have some idea what this could be.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Page 3 of 18 1 2 3 4 5 17 18

Moderator  dedication 

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 03/27/24 09:35 AM
Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?
by Kevin H. 03/24/24 09:02 PM
The Story of David and Goliath
by ProdigalOne. 03/23/24 08:06 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 03/22/24 10:17 AM
Carbon Dioxide What's so Bad about It?
by kland. 03/21/24 12:34 PM
The Value of Bible Types
by TruthinTypes. 03/17/24 06:22 PM
Orion Which Every One on the Globe Can See
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:26 PM
'Prophet' Summons UFOs
by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 02:19 AM
Will You Take The Wuhan Virus Vaccine?
by dedication. 03/11/24 06:31 PM
Get That Razor Wire Up!
by kland. 03/05/24 12:49 PM
Messages for This Time
by ProdigalOne. 03/04/24 05:54 AM
The Lake of Fire is Hell
by Rick H. 03/02/24 05:01 PM
Adventist Agriculture
by kland. 02/29/24 12:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by Rick H. 03/27/24 10:36 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1