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Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... #101166
07/25/08 06:30 PM
07/25/08 06:30 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Posts: 2,493
Florida, USA
I had never heard of this, but some people say Christ died the second death for us because the second death (the one after the 1000 years) is the penalty for sin...

Has anyone heard of this, and can anyone expand on why anyone would believe this....

Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Rick H] #101167
07/25/08 11:11 PM
07/25/08 11:11 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,567
California, USA
I hear it every time I say it. ;\)

The wages of sin is death. Many people believe that means the 2nd death. If so, then anyone who sins deserves the 2nd death.

Was Christ's death for the purpose of experiencing the wages of sin in the sinner's stead? If so, then it was the 2nd death.

Of course, there are those, such as Tom, who would say that Jesus did not die for that purpose. And there may be those who say that sin only earns the sinner the 1st death.

Then there's the discussion of what the 2nd death means: separation from God, cessation from existence, etc.

But a fundamental issue with this is Why did Jesus die? You can check out Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH if you're in the mood for that.

Last edited by asygo; 07/25/08 11:13 PM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Rick H] #101170
07/26/08 12:09 PM
07/26/08 12:09 PM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
 Originally Posted By: Richard
I had never heard of this, but some people say Christ died the second death for us because the second death (the one after the 1000 years) is the penalty for sin...

Has anyone heard of this, and can anyone expand on why anyone would believe this....


The first time we heard this taught, was about 20 years ago....and it was Ty Gibson who was teaching it at the time. We had never heard that and we tried to study it out to see if he was right. Our conclusion was that he was wrong. Not too long ago, Al tried to combine the quotes that led us to our conclusion, and we have posted them on a study on our site, here is a link to the study ~

Did Jesus Die the Second Death?


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tammy Roesch] #101171
07/26/08 08:03 PM
07/26/08 08:03 PM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
http://www.thenarrowwayministries.org/Pages.asp?intCatalogID=101

A fine, short, and helpful study, Tammy!

There is more to study of the gospel than "second death" and "death of the cross" texts to explain the meaning of Christ's death here, like Heb 2:9,14-15 and much of Romans plus Gal 2:20 and others I can't think of off hand. "Christ tasted death for every man", and by his death he destroyed him who had the power of death - the devil, also freeing those who all their life lived in fear of death. That states the accomplishment of Christ's sacrifice of himself in relation to the devil and sinners. Romans 8&7 tells of Christ freeing us of condemnation by his death and leading us in the righteous fulfilment of the law which he gives us from his own meritorious character, a mind and character we cannot produce as sinful humans without God's help - which Jesus did exactly do. Gal 2:20 speaks of this Christian strategy: Christ living in us since we no longer lead our own lives.

Your study, Tammy, covered the sequence of God's justice for wicked humans and angels as well as Christ's death: you do not link the two together at all...! Granted the wicked angels are excluded from Christ's sacrifice, but Christ substituted his sinful, human nature and righteous merits for both our sinful nature and past sinful actions as well as our future judgement for sin. Christ suffered our judgement fate of eternal death & separation from God by being consciously separated from his Father, relationally for in condemnation he was burdened with and suffered the full wait of the world's guilt. Sorry if this is obvious, but your study, Tammy, didn't examine salvation: you just studied the use of certain words. Our guilt we suffer a fraction of: Jesus suffered the full version and it killed hy im by its condemnation from God's presence. Since he suffered our guilt and condemnation by grace, we are saved from the judgement death of the last day, and by his resurrection we are saved from death to life with God, by Christ's merits which earned him his own resurrection.

Substitution is the means and purpose of Christ suffering the second death on our behalf so that neither he nor we land up in the actual fire but accompany God, his and our father (his by divine begetting, our by divine & graceous adoption), into eternity from this sinful earth.

Questions, please?

Last edited by Colin; 07/26/08 08:09 PM.
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Colin] #101174
07/27/08 10:43 AM
07/27/08 10:43 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
The Sanctuary has helped me to see that Jesus did not die the 2nd Death. Jesus is represented by the Lamb and Satan is represented by the Goat. Without the death of Jesus (the Lamb) there is no remission of sin...and, in the case of the righteous, those sins are transferred from the Sanctuary to Satan (the Goat) and he is sent away into the wilderness.

 Quote:
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Leviticus 16:21 & 22.


Without the death of Christ, we would be lost...but thank God Jesus didn't die the 2nd Death, or else He never would have been resurrected....

At the end, all of the sins of the righteous will be transferred to Satan, and he will die the 2nd Death, never to rise again.


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tammy Roesch] #101176
07/27/08 08:24 PM
07/27/08 08:24 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Jesus didn't die the 2nd Death, or else He never would have been resurrected....


If one goes by what "Second Death" technically means, this is correct. Heb. 2:9 says that Christ "tasted" death. ("taste" means "experience"). The SOP says that Christ "suffered" the death which is ours, that we may live the life that was His.

 Quote:

Was Christ's death for the purpose of experiencing the wages of sin in the sinner's stead? If so, then it was the 2nd death.

Of course, there are those, such as Tom, who would say that Jesus did not die for that purpose.


Has Tom said this? I don't recall him saying this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tom] #101179
07/28/08 05:56 AM
07/28/08 05:56 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,567
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
Was Christ's death for the purpose of experiencing the wages of sin in the sinner's stead? If so, then it was the 2nd death.

Of course, there are those, such as Tom, who would say that Jesus did not die for that purpose.

Has Tom said this? I don't recall him saying this.

I don't recall you saying this either. But would you say it?

From what I understand of your position on Christ's death, taking the punishment in the place of the sinner is not one of the reasons for it. Do I understand you correctly?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: asygo] #101181
07/28/08 03:18 PM
07/28/08 03:18 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
What I have said is I don't believe that Christ died in order to legally enable God to pardon us. However, I've cited the DA quote that says that Christ suffered the death that was ours in order that we might live the life that was His many times, and I believe it.

To say that one of the reasons for Christ's death is "taking the punishment in the place of the sinner" is OK, IMO, as long as it is understood that sin pays its wages, which is death. IOW the punishment which Christ received in our place is the punishment which results from sin (as opposed to the idea that God was venting His wrath against Christ, so He wouldn't have to do so against us.)

To put it another way, I see our problem as being one of sin. The cross allows us to be delivered from its power. The only way for us to be delivered was for Christ to suffer its punishment in our place.

As Isaiah put it:

 Quote:
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (Isa. 53)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tom] #101191
07/28/08 08:43 PM
07/28/08 08:43 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,567
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
To say that one of the reasons for Christ's death is "taking the punishment in the place of the sinner" is OK, IMO, as long as it is understood that sin pays its wages, which is death. IOW the punishment which Christ received in our place is the punishment which results from sin (as opposed to the idea that God was venting His wrath against Christ, so He wouldn't have to do so against us.)

I'll accept that. However, I do not see how sin can pay Christ any wages since Jesus had no sin. Any "punishment" must come from another source. But that is best left for another thread. In this thread, we are on the same page that Jesus was punished in our place - as a substitute.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tammy Roesch] #101192
07/28/08 09:24 PM
07/28/08 09:24 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,567
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
Not too long ago, Al tried to combine the quotes that led us to our conclusion, and we have posted them on a study on our site, here is a link to the study ~

Did Jesus Die the Second Death?

Tammy,

I can't say that there's anything wrong in Al's study. But I don't think it covers all that needs to be covered.

True, Jesus is not dead now. True, Satan will bear the sins of the righteous. But there's more to consider.

Here's the statement Tom mentioned:
 Quote:
He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. "With His stripes we are healed." {DA 25.2}

The way I see it, the "death which was ours" in the statement refers to the 2nd death. That is the death which serves as the wages of sin. Hence, Jesus suffered that death.

How do you understand the "death which was ours" in DA 25, which Jesus suffered for us?

Here's a few more quotes to consider:
 Quote:
As man He must suffer the consequences of man's sin. As man He must endure the wrath of God against transgression. {DA 686.3}

As the substitute and surety for sinful man, Christ was suffering under divine justice. He saw what justice meant. {DA 686.4}

Guiltless, He bore the punishment of the guilty. {AG 172.3}

The death we deserved was suffered to come upon him, that immortality might be given to us, who could never merit such a reward. {RH, November 28, 1912 par. 4}

...the penalty of man's transgression was borne by a divine Substitute. {ST, December 30, 1889 par. 2}

Had his suffering consisted in bodily pain alone, then his death was no more painful than that of some of the martyrs; but bodily pain was only a small part of the agony of the beloved Son of God as he hung upon the cross. The sins of the world were upon him, and also the sense of his Father's wrath against the sinner, as he suffered the penalty of the law. It was these that crushed his divine soul. It was the hiding of his Father's face, a feeling that his own dear Father had forsaken him as he drank the cup which the sinner so richly merited, that brought despair to his soul. The separation that sin makes between God and man was fully realized and keenly felt by the innocent, suffering Man of Calvary. He was oppressed by the powers of darkness, and had not one ray of light to brighten the future. His mental agony on this account was so great that man can have but a faint conception of it. {BEcho, January 1, 1887 par. 9}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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