What do you believe then? That Jesus sinned? Since you said in your post #139519:



I'm confused about what you believe. If the selfish desire is sin, and if Jesus had selfish desires, the only logical conclusion is that He sinned.

According to Sock Puppet Jesus was "made sin" for us...
...Christ incarnated into a filthy sin nature that YEARNED FOR SIN, EVERY SIN.
...Yet Christ resisted his urges, he died to his sins and overcame his SELFISH desires.
...Just like Sock Puppet said he did - I did quote them for you.

You previously said selfish desire IS SIN...
...I was simply agreeing with you that it most certainly is.
...According to the bible alone IF one holds to the bible alone.










And if we practiced bibleonlyism you would be absolutely right...
...For the following easily demonstrated reasons.

As James 1: 14 says

"But every man is tempted, WHEN he is drawn away of his OWN lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death"

Rosangela, I can walk up to you and tempt you with something ( a sin ) that may be VERY attractive to ME...
...However it may disgust you to no end & as a result of that.
...I TEMPTED you but you were NOT TEMPTED.

It could absolutely be said that "Rosangela was tempted BY Cephalopod"...
...Sort-a-like saying it the following way.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Being forty days tempted of the devil


Let me be clear in that you absolutely have been tempted by a friend or someone...
...To participate in a "sin" that you didn't care for ( grossed you out, whatever ).
...It would be said that Roasangela was tempted of ( by ) her friend to sin.
...Yet YOU were not tempted "within yourself" because that particular LUST was not in you.
...You can't be drawn away or pulled within yourself TOWARD something you don't already WANT.

Thus the apostate churches teach that Christ, in each and every case...
...Never had to resist his own internal YEARNING for a sin.
...Because they claim there was nothing within Christ to respond.

Thus a popular apostate Church trick is to place Christ within James 1:14...
...To "TEST" the idea if Christ could sin.
...Like this.

""But every man [ including Christ ] is tempted, when he [ Christ ] is drawn away of his own [ Christ's own ] lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Do not err, my beloved brethren""

Because the apostate churches say Christ had NO SIN in Him...
...And the Bible says yearning for sin ( evil lust or concupiscence ) is just UNBORN SIN.
...They ( the papalish churches ) maintain Jesus never had anything within himself TO RESPOND to the sin.
...Thus they say Christ was temped by the devil but NEVER was Christ himself tempted.

One thing all SDA's should start doing is study what the beast powers believe....
...That way we can have a better appreciation of what we believe.
...And exactly where the belief is different.

Just so you know I'm not kidding.

Col 3,4
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

For which THINGS' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience


Your average Baptist, Methodist and especially Catholic would have a heart attack...
...If you walked up and told them the flesh of Christ was disobedient.
...And Jesus, to save us, had to DIE to HIS OWN selfish desires.

Make no mistake about it - God's dear Son Incarnated into rancid flesh saturated with a sin nature...
...Jesus yearned for every sin of the flesh from your average red blooded man to the most sicking fag.
...But he RESISTED his yearning and suffered actually being tempted within himself.
...So that he can succor humanity in their sins.

Thus a pedophile who understands the truth can know Jesus knows exactly what it's like....
...To want to do dirty stuff to little kids.
...Because the pedophiles High Priest was tempted "JUST LIKE the pedophile".

Imagine the weight of it - EVERY SELFISH SIN from the little ones all the way up to the monsters....
...All stacked up in Christ's rancid flesh. It's impossible to even fathom!
...This is the faith of Sister White and the Pioneers.

Do you understand now that for YOU ( Rosangela ) to be tempted so that you feel the pull...
...You ( Rosangela ) have to have that evil concupiscence ( un-perfected / unborn sin ) ALREADY IN YOU.
...Otherwise how do YOU die to YOUR SIN?

So Christ had to die to His sins. So He sinned. Well, Ellen White never believed that. You are completely wrong.

But here we must not become in our ideas common and earthly, and in our perverted ideas we must not think that the liability of Christ to yield to Satan's temptations degraded His humanity and He possessed the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man. {16MR 182.2}

By the way, you did not reply to my post #139554.

As they were saved from the fire, yes - of course God knew...
...That's not the quesiton you should be asking yourself however.
...For it to apply to our discussion God would have had to communicate to us He was WOULD save them from the fire.
...Through the prophets of the Bible.
...Did God do that? yes or no?





When you can demonstrate to me that all the prophets of the bible....
...Said that those three guys WOULD be saved from the furnace then you will have a point.





Right, LOL!

Simoon WOULD NOT DIE until he witnessed the Lord Christ with his own eyes ( according to God )....
...But he could have died 15 year before Jesus was born???
...Think about what you are saying here Rosangela.

Luke 2:25
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should NOT see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

But according to your logic just because the Holy Spirit told him he would NOT SEE DEATH until he saw christ...
...That does not mean that couldn't have died before he saw Christ?
...You've got to be kidding!





You ever hear of a man being trapped in a womans body?
...If Christ had yearnings of homosexuality He would have had those desires.
...That way, when a fag, in tears finally gets introduced to the Bible.
...He can KNOW that he can overcome his desires JUST LIKE CHRIST DID.

You have absolutely read less Sister White and Pioneers than I have Rosangela....
...You would not say what I'm saying makes no sense if you had read even a little of them.






Was christ tempted LIKE US or not Rosangela?
...Sock Puppet says He was tempted all his life!
...I suppose you need me to show where she said that?







Is that the limit of how you are tempted Rosangela?
...Do you honestly believe Sock Puppet shared your view?
...I'm going to have some nice gifts for you.




How many more times do you need me to quote Sock Puppet...
...And our leaders when they said "CHRIST" overcame HIS SELFISH DESIRES for you?

Or is this like what you are trying to do with the could have sinned even though God told He wouldn't sin thing?

Baby Jesus was tempted in all points babies are tempted. It was the Holy Spirit who empowered baby Jesus to live in harmony with the live of God. Do you agree? Regarding the passage you posted above, I believe it harmonizes with all the passages I posted above, namely, it makes clear Jesus' sinful, fallen human nature was that of a born-again believer. "We need not retain one sinful propensity." Jesus implants a new nature. Self is crucified. Ellen wrote:


"In their fallen nature people can do the very things God expects them to do through the help provided for them." They "advance from one stage of perfection to another." Again, I hear you saying, No, people are born again selfish, and everything they think, say, and do is stained with sin.


The angels are sinless and yet one-third of them sinned. Adam and Eve were sinless and yet they sinned.


What is the difference between "sin" and "sinning"? Also, the passages I posted above make it clear people are born again with a "new nature". Are they "without sin"?


Is having a disease the same thing as infecting someone else with it? Selfishness is sinful, but is having selfish traits of character the same thing as sinning? Is subduing selfish traits of character the same thing as sinning? Is subjecting selfish traits of character to a sanctified will and reining them in (preventing them from surfacing) the same thing as sinning? If not, what do you mean by "selfishness is sin"? Does God look at our subdued, subjected, reined-in selfish traits of character and say, "You are guilty of sinning; repent or else you will suffer and die in the lake of fire"?

What we are discussing is the relationship between foreknowledge and risk, and it's not necessary for God to express His foreknowledge in writing when it is obvious from the narrative. In the case of the three hebrews we have perfect foreknowledge (since evidently God knew He would intervene) and risk. It is said that their lives were at stake - even though God knew the outcome would be favorable.


Let me make clear how I’m using the words “could” and “would” here. If I say that I could have had many children, I mean I had the necessary conditions (physical, mental, or whatever) to have many children. However, I chose to have just one child. So the meaning of “could” here doesn’t have anything to do with God’s foreknowledge, but with meeting the necessary conditions for something to occur. However, God foresaw that I “would” have just one child. So, I “could” have many children, but God saw I “would” have just one. It’s in this sense that I’m saying that Christ “could” have failed, although God knew that He “would not” fail. Christ “could” fail in the sense that He was liable to fail (which is what makes a temptation real), but God foresaw that He wouldn’t fail. IOW, the Bible doesn’t say that Christ wasn’t vulnerable to temptation, but that He wouldn’t yield to temptation.


This is not only absurd but blasphemous. Besides, how could a man, for instance, be tempted to make an abortion?


Ceph, how was He tempted to commit sins of repetition... sins of habit... sins of addiction?


OK, post them and we will discuss them.


Ceph, the problem of sinners is not the flesh (body); it’s the MIND.


It depends on the desire. I was speaking of unfallen creatures, who don’t have “foul desires.” There are desires which are good and legitimate in themselves, but, if in order to satisfy them you verify you have to go against God’s will, at that point they become selfish and, if you don't renounce them, they become sin. Look at Christ’s temptations. As I said, there’s no foul desire in desiring to eat bread when you are hungry (1st temptation), in proving to others that you are who you say you are (2nd temptation), or in achieving that which you came to achieve (3d temptation). What made these legitimate desires sinful were the conditions suggested for their satisfaction. OTOH, the foul desire is in itself a sin from the beginning.


Where did she say that? Certainly not in the passage you posted. But if she had said that, she would be talking out of both sides of her mouth, since she said that the selfish desire is sin, and that Christ didn’t sin.

MM, I promise to reply tomorrow.

Yes, and that relationship is either zero OR a percentage of risk...
...God knows exactly what is going to happen to me, I don't.
...This fact does not increase or lessen the probability of what will happen to me.




Well, God did express His foreknowledge acording to the so called bible...
...Through the prophets in what folks call the Old Testament.
...God expressed His foreknowledge explicitly whereas Christ is concerned.

It comes out directly and says that in many places in the O.T....
...And the New Testament confirms it was known and expressed from God to us on the O.T.
...From before the world was created.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which GOD, that CANNOT lie, PROMISED before the world began


Strong's G893
1) without lie, truthful

It was always 100% that Christ would come....
...It was always 100% that Christ would die FOR US.
...It was always 100% that Christ would suffer for us.

There was no "risk" in any of the above not happening...
...It was 100% going to happen.
...Therefore, it is correct to say failure in any way was also 100% IMPOSSIBLE.
...This is simple logic Rosangela.

Just make sure you realize I'm playing Devils advocate here with all of this...
...For Sister White ursurps all logical reasoning of the so called bible.
...And I can absolutely prove it.

As the absolute promise of God saving the world is explicitly stated in black and white in both Testaments...
...As well as crafted into the narrative of Scripture itself.
...It becomes impossible to reject it from a "bible only" perspective.





You are really going into outer space with this concept....
...It's like you did a word search for "risk" on the White Estate search engine.
...And since this is as close as you could get thought you would create an apologetic from it.
...Are you sure you want to use this reasoning?

To them ( the 3 Hebrews ) their lives WERE at steak...
...They had NO IDEA God would save them.
...There was no prophecy about them at all.
...For all they knew they could end up the same as countless Jews already had.

Do me a favor and DON'T try to pass this off to a Baptist or any other apostate Chrisitan...
...If you in the future find yourself in a discussion about impeccability.



What you are failing to see here is that according to the bible...
...Christ wouldn't sin and loose his salvation.
...Because he couldn't sin and loose his salvation.

You say that christ is "God"...
...Ok, the bible says that christ is God.

So far so good ( if you're a bible-onlyist ).

The bible says that God can't fail or sin...
...Our prophet says God could have failed, could have sinned.

You're reasoning in this area is strikingly odd to be sure...
...What you are saying is that God said a virgin would bear the christ.
...But the virgin could have had sex and not been a virgin.
...Because she was "LIABLE" to have sex and not be a virgin.
...So while God said the woman would be a virgin and predestined she would be.
...Mary could have ended up not being a virgin.

For the record I never said Christ "couldn't be tempted"...
...He was absolutely tempted by Lucifer.
...In fact he was led into the wild by the Spirit TO BE TEMPTED BY LUCIFER.

Question:
Why was Jesus rushed to Eqypt?

Answer:
"And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be FULFILLED which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son"

The prophets also said the Christ would die for his people...
...And that he would have done NOTHING wrong.
...Therefore, according to the bible -
...Jesus was led into the wild to be tempted by the Devil.
...Not to show that he was liable to temptation but to show he COULDN'T be tempted WITHIN HIMSELF.

As you've not taken me to task on my examples of how sin works...
...You obviously agree with me that there are two kinds.
...A) when someone or something tempts us and we are not interested
&
...B) when someone or something tempts us and we ARE interested.
...So it could be said we either go along with what we already want to do OR RESIST OUR temptation.

If you have to RESIST your own urge to not steal something...
...That simply means YOUR sin is simply trying to perfect itself, be fully born.

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man

So, thoughts can defile a person and that means if I have to RESIST "MY" temptation to steal something...
...Or participate in fornication, etc
...I'm ALREADY DEFILED and as everyone here is defiled, we all need Christ.

In case you missed where I'm going with this - Sister White was clear that Christ....
...Felt the pull of temptation, resisted, died to sin, etc.

It wasn't until I honestly looked into the papists arguments against a sin liable christ....
...That I realized they had more "bible" on their side then we did.
...I poured over this stuff for more than a year and came to realize.
...That S.O.P. was right - the Bible wasn't God's Pen!




Remember one thing Rosangela - some of your own sins are just as unacceptable to God....
...As the most sickening fag who ever walked the earth.
...And the dripping fag's debt was paid for him no differently than your and my debts were paid.
...By the sacrifice of Christ.

You've perfectly illustrated something I discovered a few years ago - to my horror...
...And that is I have sins I might not even realize I have.
...And those sins might be totally disgusting to another person.
...But because I'm blind to them I make myself feel better by observing a rotten queer.
...When in reality that queer might be closer to salvation than I AM.

That was a big reality check for me and I suggest you get one for yourself...
...It doesn't matter if a man can't have an abortion.
...There are other equally condemning sins a "man" can yearn for.
...So that he has to either RESIST his own yearnings or be led into the actual act.



I'm not talking about being tempted by the devil to make something to eat for himself...
...It's not a sin to yearn for food when you are hungry.

Sock Puppet, Christ, a perfect example for "ALL"
Living the life OF the Saviour, overcoming every selfish desire, fulfilling bravely and cheerfully our duty to God and to those around us—this makes us more than conquerors. This prepares us to stand before

Sock Puppet, bible echo 1 November 1892
Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He took upon Him human nature. Christ was ACTUALLY tempted, not only in the wilderness, but ALL through his life. In all points He was tempted as we are, and because He successfully resisted temptation in every form, He gave us a perfect example.”

Sock Puppet, ST May 10, 1899
For a period of time Christ was on probation. He took humanity on Himself, to stand the test and trial which the first Adam failed to endure. Had He failed in His test and trial, He would have been disobedient to the voice of God, and the world would have been lost.”

Sock Puppet MS57
Our Lord was tempted as man is tempted. He was capable of yielding to temptations, as are human beings.”

Rosangela, I am a man and I know how I have been and still am tempted...
...When I find myself resisting it's only because something inside of me WANTS THE SIN I'm being tempted with.
...I'm ONLY tempted WITHIN MYSELF for what I already lust for.

And because my heart is not yet PURE I catch myself lusting for females, especially the ones that flirt with me...
..."Out of the heart" come these lusts and it matters little if I talk myself out of them.
...If I'm still drawn toward those things I STILL HAVE SIN IN ME trying to get out and effect other people!

So, please realize that Sock Puppet meant what she said when Christ was tempted like I am tempted....
...And that he took on rancid flesh with every foul desire known to both man and woman.
...Yet he ever resisted his yearnings for EVERY SIN the world has ever known.

The Bible said Christ drank wine so very possibly he had to resist drinking wine all the time...
...Bet you never thought of that did ya.
...And please don't say it was grape juice.




I've already given you a couple new ones above - tell me where I've not understood Sock Puppet...
...I have more where those came from and we are not even into the Pioneers yet.



yes, I know that - "out of the heart" comes things that defile....
...And as Sock Puppet was so clear.
..."TEMPTATION IS NOT SIN" & "Jesus was ACTUALLY TEMPTED".
...A man is ONLY tempted when he is drawn away by his own lusts.


James 1, 14 is NOT TALKING ABOUT external temptation but INTERNAL...
...The kind you feel the PULL OF, drawing you to what you ALREADY WANT.




I've already posted that right here in this thread....
...And for the record I'm playing Devils advocate here.
...I'm playing the bible onlyist and it was you that agreed selfish desire was sin.
...remember I said THAT WAS EXACTLY what the Bible said as well.

So, deal with Sock Puppet where she said Christ overcame his selfish desires....
...When you realize you HAVE TO ADMIT she taught that I'm thinking you will be on my side.
...There are more of than you know and we are growing monthly.

Right, God knows, we don't know. For God there are no risks. Risk is a human word because we don't know the outcome. This is what I've been saying all along. Are you in agreement or not?


Sure. There wasn't a risk. God and Christ, before His incarnation, foreknew that He would be victorious.


I think the disagreement lies here. If I'm understanding correctly, you are saying Christ is not truly God because of the word "risk" used in relation to Him? Or because He could fail?

This is what Ellen White says in relation to Christ being God and being tempted:

As God, Christ could not be tempted any more than He was not tempted from His allegiance in heaven. But as Christ humbled Himself to the nature of man, He could be tempted. He had not taken on Him even the nature of the angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin. {16MR 181.4}

We must practice the example of Christ, bearing in mind His Sonship and His humanity. It was not God that was tempted in the wilderness, nor a God that was to endure the contradiction of sinners against Himself. It was the Majesty of heaven who became a man-- humbled Himself to our human nature. {3SM 140.4}

God, AS A MAN, met a risk (peril). God sent His Son to meet a risk on earth. The word "risk" applied to Christ as a human being, not to His pre-existence (He foresaw He would be victorious, remember?) He wasn't omniscient while a human being, so for Him as a human being the risk was real.


Ellen White said there are two kinds of temptation (not the two kinds you mentioned, since there is no real temptation when one is not interested):

"Temptation is enticement to sin, and this does not proceed from God, but from (1) Satan and from (2) the evil of our own hearts." {MB 116.2}

But Christ had no evil in His heart. We have inward corruption. He didn't have it:

Christ did not need to fast for forty days because of inward corruption, or to subdue self. He was sinless. It was on our account that He fasted. He had been exalted by God, but He humbled Himself, and when He could have taken advantage of circumstances to favor Himself, He did not do this. {21MR 11.4}


Actually that’s the point. The temptations that come our way are particular to us. Some things people fall into, I simply don’t understand how. I have no attraction to them. Jesus’s temptations were particular to him. But they were as real as ours ever are.
Christ was tempted in the three great branches of evil, the three areas in which Adam and Eve were tempted, and in which we are tempted:

“The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours. With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us.” {DA 116.4}

I have an appointment now. More later.