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Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141789
05/01/12 01:08 AM
05/01/12 01:08 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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This is what would happen to me if I didn't faithfully share these things. This is what God showed me is what the second death is like, that they will all sweat blood...

"Presently an angel bade me rise, and the sight that met my eyes can hardly be described. Before me was a company whose hair and garments were torn, and whose countenances were the very picture of despair and horror. They came close to me, and rubbed their garments upon mine. As I looked at my garments, I saw that they were stained with blood. Again I fell like one dead, at the feet of my accompanying angel. I could not plead one excuse, and longed to be away from that holy place. {CET 79.2}
The angel raised me to my feet, and said: “This is not your case now, but this scene has passed before you to let you know what your situation must be if you neglect to declare to others what the Lord has revealed to you. But if you are faithful to the end, you shall eat of the tree of life, and shall drink of the river of the water of life. You will have to suffer much, but the grace of God is sufficient.” {CET 79.3}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141799
05/01/12 06:50 AM
05/01/12 06:50 AM
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dedication  Online Content

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It may sound strange, but I agree with both of MM and James.

Christ SUFFERED the second death in all it's terrors. The weight of the worlds sins was so great it dragged Him to the depths of "hell" and subjected Him to the wrath of a righteous God against sin. He felt the agony sinners will feel when they stand outside the walls of Jerusalem knowing they lost it all. He felt it all.
All those quotes James presented -- yes, Jesus felt it all and He did it out of love for us.

But while He TASTED and experienced all the agonies and terrors of the second death for all of us, so we don't have to experience it, yet He didn't "die" the second death.

Why do we say that?
Because there is NO RETURN from the second death. It is everlasting, final, finished, the end.

Jesus experienced the terror and anguish of that death, but HE ROSE AGAIN!
Because that awful load of sin that drove Him down into the depths of utter lostness, could not hold Him, because He had never sinned.
HE ROSE AGAIN and liveth forever to intercede for us.

No one who dies the second death will rise again, they are finished, gone forever, never to be again. And in the end satan will get the whole heap of sins on him and he will die the second death never to bother anyone ever again.
I noticed several times that MM tried to explain the role of the scape goat in the day of atonement, but it was always brushed aside. That scape goat is satan.

But James is right in his concern that we understand that Christ experienced (fully felt) the agonies and terrors of the second death in our place.
Yet, He rose -- so it wasn't the second death.
He conquered DEATH!

How we should cling to Christ in thankful amazement that He would do that for us so we don't have to experience it
And yes, as MM explained if we experience the second death -- it will be final -- NO RETURN.

In Christ is life -- come to Him, for why would anyone turn their back on Christ Who did so much for us, and head into that black hole from which there is no return.

Last edited by dedication; 05/01/12 06:53 AM.
Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: dedication] #141804
05/01/12 02:21 PM
05/01/12 02:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
SEPARATION FROM THE FATHER IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR SIN. Not the physical death.

So it was in Gethsemane that Jesus died in our stead suffering the THE DEATH pronounced upon transgressors?

I agree. Jesus didn't literally die the second death. He "tasted" it, of all it, but in the end He conquered it. Thank you, Jesus.

Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: dedication] #141805
05/01/12 02:30 PM
05/01/12 02:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
It may sound strange, but I agree with both of MM and James.

. . .

But James is right in his concern that we understand that Christ experienced (fully felt) the agonies and terrors of the second death in our place. Yet, He rose -- so it wasn't the second death. He conquered DEATH!

Dedication, thank you for emphasizing this vital truth. From the beginning of this thread I have attempted to do so. Here is a sampling of what I've posted thus far:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus died the second death. Wherever the second death is mentioned Satan, the scapegoat, is the one who dies with (not for) the sins of the saved. Jesus "tasted death" as our Substitute. He paid the sin debt of death for the entire world. He satisfied the death demands of law and justice on our behalf and thereby earned the right to pardon and save the penitent. But did He do it by succumbing to the second death? Or, did He do it by consuming and conquering it? Is He not the lawful owner of our sin and second death? And, is it not His duty to eliminate them with Satan in the lake of fire? Ellen wrote:

. . .

Mark, I thoroughly agree with you that what Jesus underwent for us is the epitome of love and sacrifice and redemption. It lacked nothing. Jesus "did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do". The separation Jesus and the Father suffered for our sacrifice and salvation ended before Jesus laid down His life. He did more than die the second death - He completely consumed it and triumphantly proclaimed - "It is finished." He conquered the cup; not the other way around. Saying so does not detract from what Jesus "accomplished" for us; on the contrary, it exalts and magnifies His accomplishment. He entered and existed the domain of death to demonstrate His ownership of the keys of hell and of death. Again, Jesus drank the cup as our Substitute. He endured everything law and justice demand of the damned. Jesus suffered for our sins. However, according to the inspired record, it is Satan, the scapegoat, who will suffer with the sins of the saved in the lake of fire at the end of time. The inspired record makes this distinction. I do not pretend to know all there is to know about it. Eternity will not be long enough to exhaust the truth. Thank you, Jesus.

However, I really appreciate the way you stated it above. We cannot overstate what Jesus suffered as our Substitute. So again, thank you, Dedication, for expressing it so eloquently. God is good.

Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: Mountain Man] #141821
05/01/12 06:21 PM
05/01/12 06:21 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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To be absolutely clear,

1: Jesus was sitting outside the gates of Jerusalem...Just as the wicked will be at the second resurrection.

2: Jesus was 'Cut off' as prophesied in Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be 'cut off', but not for himself...

3: Jesus sweat blood just as everyone in the second resurrection will sweat.

4: Jesus pleaded with the Father to let "the cup" that He offered in the upper room, the cup of the new and everlasting covenant, to pass from Him that He might not drink it.

5: Jesus had His 'Baptism of blood' in Gethsemane and the Holy Spirit 'like a dove' overshadowed Him.

6: The wrath of the Father was upon Him.

7: The Red Heifer which was burned to ashes was fulfilled at that moment in Gethsemane.

8: Hebrews 13: 10-13 says "We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

and we are commanded, "Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach."

And so many more proofs, and after all of these you still say Jesus didn't die the second death? Completely contrary to many pastors of our faith that I discovered after having a vision from God..... *****STAFF EDIT*****

You have no idea what you are doing.

I will reiterate. If you speak words claiming to be enlightened by God, but are speaking CONTRARY to the Holy Spirit, THIS IS WHAT A FALSE PROPHET IS! By definition.

*****STAFF EDIT*****

Last edited by Daryl F; 06/06/12 12:22 PM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate remarks.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141822
05/01/12 06:25 PM
05/01/12 06:25 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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I am confident the Lord has spoken through me on this issue... *****STAFF EDIT*****

Last edited by Daryl F; 06/06/12 12:24 PM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate remarks.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141830
05/02/12 01:38 AM
05/02/12 01:38 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, you do not have Ellen White's support. She never says Jesus died the second death. She makes it abundantly clear Satan will pay the "full" and "final" penalty for the sins of the saved. The sins of the saved were transferred to the head of the Scapegoat on the Day of Atonement. They were not placed upon the Lord's Goat.

*****THREAD CLEANUP STAFF EDIT*****

Last edited by Daryl F; 06/06/12 12:26 PM. Reason: Staff Edit re Thread Cleanup
Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: Mountain Man] #141834
05/02/12 05:06 AM
05/02/12 05:06 AM
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dedication  Online Content

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I don't think James understands what we have said. He isn't addressing what was said.
Sadly he seems to see it only as a "challenge" against himself.
No it's not a challenge against him, it's expressing what I believe!


Here is his rebuttal with my observations added.

James: 1: Jesus was sitting outside the gates of Jerusalem...Just as the wicked will be at the second resurrection.

Dedication: Yes, -- but not "sitting" He was crucified outside the walls on Mt. Calvary.



James:2: Jesus was 'Cut off' as prophesied in Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be 'cut off', but not for himself...

Dedication: Yes, He was crucified as prophesied in Daniel 9:26 and it wasn't for Himself it was for us that we might have redemption.


James:3: Jesus sweat blood just as everyone in the second resurrection will sweat.

Dedication: Yes, He experienced all the agonies and terrors of the second death for all of us, so we don't have to experience it, yet He didn't "die" the second death, though in all its darkness it felt like it would be eternal death, He died the first death.


James:4: Jesus pleaded with the Father to let "the cup" that He offered in the upper room, the cup of the new and everlasting covenant, to pass from Him that He might not drink it.

Dedication: Yes, taking the full load of the world's sin and going through with the sacrifice was difficult for His human nature. But the "cup" was not the covenant, the cup was the "cup of iniquity" of the world. It was taking the sins of the world that would separate Him from His Father and incur the wrath of justice.

James:5: Jesus had His 'Baptism of blood' in Gethsemane and the Holy Spirit 'like a dove' overshadowed Him.

Dedication: Yes, Jesus sweat blood in Gethsemane and had not an angel from heaven strengthened Him He would have died there.
DA page 695 does say the Holy Spirit like a dove overshadowed Him.

James:6: The wrath of the Father was upon Him.

Dedication: Yes, because of the load of the worlds sin, He experienced the wrath of God which the sinners facing the second death will experience.

James: And so many more proofs, and after all of these you still say Jesus didn't die the second death?

Dedication: He experienced all the terrors and agonies of the second death, but though He died, he didn't actually die the second death. Even though every indication was that He must die the second death due to the terrible load of sin He bore, but because of His innocence, death could not hold Him, thus He gained the victory over the second death, He defeated it, it had no power over Him!

And MY PROOF FOR THAT IS BECAUSE HE ROSE AGAIN! HALLELULLA !!! AMEN!

Don't you believe Christ rose and lives forever more???

All who die the second death are dead forever more. There is no resurrection for those who die the second death.

Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: Mountain Man] #141835
05/02/12 05:38 AM
05/02/12 05:38 AM
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dedication  Online Content

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Posts: 5,001
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, you do not have Ellen White's support. She never says Jesus died the second death. She makes it abundantly clear Satan will pay the "full" and "final" penalty for the sins of the saved. The sins of the saved were transferred to the head of the Scapegoat on the Day of Atonement. They were not placed upon the Lord's Goat.


Christ took the sins of the world upon Himself.


Christ created the human race and they "went bad", they deserve death. But as our heavenly parent, Christ takes the blame and suffers the penalty. Now the penalty is everlasting last. Jesus experiences the full agony of the eternal death, but because of His absolute sinlessness He gains victory over it, breaking its grasp and rises again! Death has no power to hold Him.

His death is depicted by the Passover Lamb.
The confessed sins of the saints are recorded in the heavenly sanctuary with the blood of Christ covering them.
But they won't stay there forever.
The confessed sins of the saved will be carried into the everlasting destruction on the head of the instigator of sin -- the devil.


"[On the day of atonement] As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited;" so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. {FLB 213.4} (GC 486)

Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: dedication] #141836
05/02/12 05:59 AM
05/02/12 05:59 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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I didn't use the word 'sitting' for his body position, but for His co-ordinance.

It was the custom of Jesus to go to Gethsemane to pray because it was the same proximity of the altar Adam erected outside the eastern gate of the Garden of Eden. Nostalgically He longed to go to His friend there, to be with him once again. It is a symbol of His care that He truly has for our lives.

In my vision of Jesus in Gethsemane He was on His hands and knees sweating blood over every inch of his body like he was being squeezed with immense pressure, like Jonah at the bottom of the ocean in the giant fish.

He was looking up to Jerusalem's eastern gate from the bottom of the abyss on the east of Jerusalem. The gates of Jerusalem were closed to Him, and His prayers were not evident of being accepted. His connection with the Father was 'Cut Off'. Silence from heaven, just like the 144,000 after probation ends. Jesus finally had an angel by His side just like the 144,000 also in the very last days.

In the vision Jesus longed for sympathy from me like a brother in need. I felt ashamed, because of how I saw myself in His light. His need superseded my longing to hide, so I got to minister to Him while he was suffering for me. He held on to me in support of my realization of shame, while He was incurring the wrath of God for me. He was loving the fact that I cared about His pain. It drew us together in love because of the faith involved, like waves of truth.

I saw my sins transferred to the head of Christ there in the garden in my vision. He showed me, this is where the propitiation takes place, like the spark plug of Christianity. It is where we confess our sins upon His head and He takes them through the shame in our place and dies with them on the cross fulfilling the ultimate sacrifice. He died the death we all deserve in the Garden, and this begins the three day and three night "Sign of Jonah". This is the sign to the wicked and adulterous generation.

In The vision, while Jesus was on His hands and knees I saw an all red Heifer superimposed over His bloody visage. They inhabited the same place showing Jesus was this mysterious sacrifice in Gethsemane dying the second death.

It was so clear; like I was there, and then He came to me and when He held on I saw it through His eyes like His mind became my mind to suffer the shame of my past. This experience REVEALS EVERYTHING!!! It avails us to God's perspective on our lives, the mirror of liberty, in the light of the Ten Commandments.

This experience is what was supposed to happen in the heart of every man offering sacrifice at the Eastern Gate of the temple, and an invaluable tool in the Christian faith to empathize with Christ for our sin. This empathy is the greatest weapon against sin because of the reality of the shame. The perfect incentive to not continue to go through it and put Christ through it while He pleads on our behalf in heaven.

"The human heart longs for sympathy in suffering. This longing Christ felt to the very depths of His being. In the supreme agony of His soul He came to His disciples with a yearning desire to hear some words of comfort from those whom He had so often blessed and comforted, and shielded in sorrow and distress. The One who had always had words of sympathy for them was now suffering superhuman agony, and He longed to know that they were praying for Him and for themselves.... {CSA 32.8} Rising with painful effort, He staggered to the place where He had left His companions. But He “findeth them asleep (foolish virgins).” ... {CSA 32.9}


In the vision I was permitted to witnessed what the disciples would have if they did not sleep through it. Peter would go back to Gethsemane after the death of Jesus and this is where He continued to commune with Christ after His ascension, in prayer. It is a symbol of the gate to heaven facing the west, towards the eastern gate of the heavenly city, of which earthly Jerusalem is but a model. The model gives us a visual aid to imagine the heavenly eastern gate where the true triumphal entry will take place at the second resurrection. The wicked, Gog and Magog will watch Jesus and His saints enter the new Jerusalem's eastern gate when they come to do battle against God, to their death.

But to avoid going to the second death we accept Jesus suffering it for us, you see how that works?

"Again the Son of God was seized with superhuman agony, and fainting and exhausted, He staggered back to the place of His former struggle. His suffering was even greater than before. As the agony of soul came upon Him, “His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.” The cypress and palm trees were the silent witnesses of His anguish. From their leafy branches dropped heavy dew upon His stricken form, as if nature wept over its Author wrestling alone with the powers of darkness." {DA 689.3}

I have never heard it preached HOW the writer of this biblical message could know these things to write them if everyone was asleep or had a limited knowledge of the suffering of Jesus in the Garden. There were no alert witnesses... Now I know how. It is the sprinkling of the ashes of the Red Heifer. They witnessed it after the fact in the Spirit like I did.

This message leads to the sanctification for the reception of the later rain. The ashed of the Red Heifer were quintessential to build or rebuild the temple, and God is trying to bring us together in truth to build the true temple, the Body of Christ.



Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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