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Re: The 24 Elders [Re: jamesonofthunder] #143281
06/11/12 12:30 PM
06/11/12 12:30 PM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
Active Member 2013
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Florida, USA
I don't remember reading in Revelation that any of the 24 elders were 'sons of God'. I am sure that God has representatives on other worlds that are watching us. That only makes sense. I think our elders would have the prayers of our saints in their bowls to present to God.
I am like someone else on here. It is an interesting study that I am sure has no effect on our salvation. I just like to keep my stories straight.


Harold T.
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: jamesonofthunder] #143300
06/11/12 11:34 PM
06/11/12 11:34 PM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
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I am brought up with the understanding that the 24 elders were those who rose up with Christ and went with him to heaven. I see no reason why I should change that now, nor that it has any importance for my salvation.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Johann] #143308
06/12/12 05:32 AM
06/12/12 05:32 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Johann
I am brought up with the understanding that the 24 elders were those who rose up with Christ and went with him to heaven. I see no reason why I should change that now, nor that it has any importance for my salvation.

I fully agree with you, Johann. To my understanding, the 24 elders were representative of the "first fruits" of the earth and are comprised of those whom God has already taken to Heaven.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: jamesonofthunder] #143310
06/12/12 04:05 PM
06/12/12 04:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I like the idea that suggests the 24 elders are compromised of Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and 21 "trophies" raised with Jesus ("They were a few chosen and holy ones who had lived in every age from creation, even down to the days of Christ. . . Those who were resurrected were of different stature and form.") 7 trophies each for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Quote:
Matthew
27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

As Christ arose, He brought from the grave a multitude of captives. The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves, and when He arose, they came forth with Him. They were those who had been co-laborers with God, and who at the cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth. Now they were to be witnesses for Him who had raised them from the dead. {DA 786.1}

But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow. {DA 786.2}

These went into the city, and appeared unto many, declaring, Christ has risen from the dead, and we be risen with Him. Thus was immortalized the sacred truth of the resurrection. The risen saints bore witness to the truth of the words, "Thy dead men shall live, together with My dead body shall they arise." Their resurrection was an illustration of the fulfillment of the prophecy, "Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isaiah 26:19. {DA 786.3}

He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. {DA 834.2}

So those who had been raised were to be presented to the universe as a pledge of the resurrection of all who believe in Christ as their personal Saviour. {YI, August 11, 1898 par. 5}

As Christ ascends while in the act of blessing his disciples, an army of angels encircle him as a cloud. Christ takes with him the multitude of captives. He will himself bring to the Father the first-fruits of them that slept, as an evidence that he is conqueror of death and the grave. {YI, August 11, 1898 par. 7}

The captives brought up from the graves at the time of the resurrection of Jesus were his trophies as a conquering Prince. Thus he attested his victory over death and the grave; thus he gave a pledge and an earnest of the resurrection of all the righteous dead. Those who were called from their graves went into the city, and appeared unto many in their resurrected forms, and testified that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead, and that they had risen with him. {3SP 223.1}

It was well known to the priests and rulers that certain persons who were dead had risen at the resurrection of Jesus. Authentic reports were brought to them of different ones who had seen and conversed with these resurrected ones, and heard their testimony that Jesus, the Prince of life, whom the priests and rulers had slain, was risen from the dead. {3SP 223.2}

When Jesus, as he hung upon the cross, cried out, It is finished, the rocks rent, the earth shook, and some of the graves where shaken open; for when Jesus arose from the dead, and conquered death and the grave; when he walked forth from his prison house a triumphant conqueror; while the earth was reeling and shaking, and the excellent glory of heaven clustered around the sacred spot, obedient to his call, many of the righteous dead came forth as witnesses that he had risen. Those favored, resurrected saints came forth glorified. They were a few chosen and holy ones who had lived in every age from creation, even down to the days of Christ. And while the chief priests and Pharisees were seeking to cover up the resurrection of Christ, God chose to bring up a company from their graves to testify that Jesus had risen, and to declare his glory. {1SG 69.1}

Those who were resurrected were of different stature and form. I was informed that the inhabitants of earth had been degenerating, losing their strength and comeliness. Satan has the power of disease and death, and in every age the curse has been more visible, and the power of Satan more plainly seen. Some of those raised were more noble in appearance and form than others. I was informed that those who lived in the days of Noah and Abraham were more like the angels in form, in comeliness and strength. But every generation has been growing weaker, and more subject to disease, and their lives of shorter duration. Satan has been learning how to annoy men, and to enfeeble the race. {1SG 69.2}

Those holy ones who came forth after the resurrection of Jesus appeared unto many, telling them that the sacrifice for man was completed, that Jesus, whom the Jews crucified, had risen from the dead, and added, We be risen with him. They bore testimony that it was by his mighty power that they had been called forth from their graves. Notwithstanding the lying reports circulated, the matter could not be concealed by Satan, his angels, or the chief priests; for this holy company, brought forth from their graves, spread the wonderful, joyful news; also Jesus showed himself unto his sorrowing, heart-broken disciples, dispelling their fears, and causing them gladness and joy. {1SG 70.1}

Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Mountain Man] #143315
06/12/12 05:10 PM
06/12/12 05:10 PM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
I found the interpetation that was given in my college "Revelation" class and also given by a professor who is unaware of the first professor when I studied Biblical Geography in Israel the most convincing; Now I don't know if I have all the details correct in my memory but the basics are that it is built on the table of the nations in Genesis, Jethro plan to Moses, the set up of David's government and that it was a common method used in the ancient governments and the ancient understanding of the cosmos and the gods.

They consisted of 70 elders they broke down into three groups of 23 elders, and they with the high priest made 70. When they met the quarm would be 23 elders plus the high priest for 24 elders. These were the king's counsel.

The Sanhedren was based on this. A misunderstanding of the Bible is that the Sanhedren was not able to put people to death. No they could not crucify people for political issues. They were allowed to stone people to death for religious reasons. Pilate and Caiaphas would referr people to each other. If Pilate saw someone who was not really political but religious he would send them to Caiaphas to be stoned and if more political sent to Pilate to be crucified.

An exception is that the understanding of the Biblical text of cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree, was that the Bible was teaching that only peope who were God's enemies were going to hang on a tree, thus Caiaphas would like to send some religious leaders to Pilate so they would hang on the tree, which would ruin the reputation as surely as anything that a religious leader would do to make you think that they were not from God after all but of the devil and make his followers disclaim him.

Now the Pharicees belonged to different schools with different beliefs and tried to be fair in trials but they would end up not focused on the person but on the different side issues (we see Paul taking use of this in his trial pointing to the resurection) The Saducees were just corupt puppets of Rome who only wanted to keep the peace and were willing to be very dishonest about it.

They would meet in a group of 23 saduceeian elders (with the hight priest to make 24 eders) where they would have witnessed that would contridict each other then either take the guy out to stone him or take him to Pilate to crucify him.

Taking all this together basically you have two groups of 12 which are advisors to the king. And as John saw 24 elders give a false testimony about Jesus in Revelation 5 he sees their heavenly counterparts, 24 elders giving the truth about Jesus.

The setting of Revelation 4 and 5 is you have God (with immages for the three aspects of the trinity) on the throne, surrounded by the 24 elders and around them the four living beasts. The four beasts are the four sides of the traveling and camping of the children of Israel during the exodus. The warcamp of Israel. Thus the four living beasts is a symbol of the church of God traveling through the wilderness to the promised land. The 24 elders are the method of communication from the throne of God to his church as we are traveling through the wilderness.

Now can you think of a testimony of two groups of 12 that guide God's church through hstory? The testimony of the 12 tribes and 12 apostels, their testimony which is the Old and New Testaments, the word of God.

Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Kevin H] #143325
06/12/12 09:41 PM
06/12/12 09:41 PM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
Active Member 2013
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Florida, USA
Very good, Johann. I have went through all I have of Sister White and can find nothing about any 24 elders of Revelation. It must be under a different heading if there is any. Even just putting down 'elders' gets me nothing about them.


Harold T.
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Harold Fair] #143326
06/12/12 10:58 PM
06/12/12 10:58 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

Then about 2000 yrs. old and well-named.

____________________


Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Harold Fair] #143329
06/13/12 06:24 AM
06/13/12 06:24 AM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
Originally Posted By: Harold Fair
Very good, Johann. I have went through all I have of Sister White and can find nothing about any 24 elders of Revelation. It must be under a different heading if there is any. Even just putting down 'elders' gets me nothing about them.


Even so, Mrs. White's job was to make applications of the Bible to our day, her job was NOT to do exegesis, she said that is our job to do but that people keep wanting her to do it for them. She refused this yet we still use her in this manner.

Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Harold Fair] #143330
06/13/12 09:57 AM
06/13/12 09:57 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: Harold Fair
I don't remember reading in Revelation that any of the 24 elders were 'sons of God'. I am sure that God has representatives on other worlds that are watching us. That only makes sense. I think our elders would have the prayers of our saints in their bowls to present to God.
I am like someone else on here. It is an interesting study that I am sure has no effect on our salvation. I just like to keep my stories straight.



Originally Posted By: Johann
I am brought up with the understanding that the 24 elders were those who rose up with Christ and went with him to heaven. I see no reason why I should change that now, nor that it has any importance for my salvation.


Chapter 4 of Revelation gives us a view of the throne-room of heaven before Jesus came to earth to live the perfect life and the 24 Elders are there. So how could they be from the mini resurrection since in this scene Jesus had not resurrected yet, and since at that point the only ones to make it to heaven were Elijah, Enoch and Moses how could their be 24 of them?

In the next chapter, five, there is no one to break the seals and read the scroll with the seven seals, and the lamb who had been slain appears and is found worthy to take the book. First the 24 elders say "worthy is the lamb" (verses 8-10) then the angels (verse 11,12), THEN the people of the earth (verse 13,14).

Also in chapter five the 24 elders say “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, 10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” If the twenty-four elders were from earth would they use the word they or them?

So the 24 Elders were already seen in heaven before Jesus took the sealed book in His hand after His resurrection.

Also if you want to look for the 24 elders in the Spirit of Prophecy, she calls them the 'Elders before the throne'. Or search for "elders beasts".

This is another subject the Spirit of Prophecy does not cover
directly.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: jamesonofthunder] #143335
06/13/12 01:42 PM
06/13/12 01:42 PM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
Active Member 2013
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Florida, USA
You are not reading the first verse of chapter 4. The angel tells John that he will show him things TO COME. Hereafter..Later..In the future..


Harold T.
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