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Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Harold Fair] #143345
06/13/12 05:00 PM
06/13/12 05:00 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
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No, he says “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” The 'this' event that he's talking about is obviously the opening of the door, opened in heaven when Jesus passed into the Holy place when He ascended to heaven. Then later that door is closed and the most Holy is revealed, standard Adventist 101. The proof that this is the first compartment is the fact that "before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God" the golden lamp stands which is the Holy not the Most Holy.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Harold Fair] #143346
06/13/12 05:01 PM
06/13/12 05:01 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Harold Fair
You are not reading the first verse of chapter 4. The angel tells John that he will show him things TO COME. Hereafter..Later..In the future..


No, he says "Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to come to pass after these things;" (Young's Literal Translation) The 'things' that he's talking about is obviously the opening of the door which comes first. "After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven!"

This opening of the door in heaven is when Jesus came to earth. The scene in the throne-room next in Chapter 5 shows the desperate need for a savior, so it is not future. It shows no one capable of getting the job done until Jesus appearing on the scene, when He ascended to heaven. It is the opening of the door, completed at the moment Jesus was ordained as High Priest in heaven.

Later that door is closed and the most Holy is revealed beginning the judgment, Adventist 101.

The proof, that this is the first compartment, is the fact that "before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God" (V5). The golden lamp stands are across from God's throne, the Table of Shew-bread, in the Holy Place not the Most Holy.

Chapter 5 talks about the scroll with seven seals then chapter 6 begins the opening of the seals in sequence so the scenes before must occur in order before the opening of the seals which we as Adventists know have been happening for a very long time.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: jamesonofthunder] #143360
06/13/12 07:56 PM
06/13/12 07:56 PM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
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Posts: 215
Florida, USA
That is why I use the KJV. It clearly says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter." Hereafter WHAT? "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Future. I get the same impression from that text as I do Revelation 11:19. Future.


Harold T.
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Harold Fair] #143364
06/13/12 11:07 PM
06/13/12 11:07 PM
Johann  Offline
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Herold, As I started looking up your text thinking I had reached Revelation 4, I discovered I was only in 1 John where verse 1 in chapter 4 reads: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." Reminds us we are to test for ourselves.

With you I find it difficult not to consider that John is invited to see now what will take place in the future.Through the prophetic reality John is at the present discovering what will take place in the future. It becomes vivid to him at that time.

What a privilege John had to see things the way God sees them. I think a majority of Bible translation agree with the KJV on this point, like the following:

Revelation 4:1 Amplified Bible (AMP)

4 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice which I had heard addressing me like [the calling of] a [a]war trumpet said, Come up here, and I will show you what must take place in the future.


Revelation 4:1
J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
The vision of Heaven

4 Later I looked again, and before my eyes a door stood open in Heaven, and in my ears was the voice with the ring of a trumpet, which I had heard at first, speaking to me and saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen in the future.”

Revelation 4:1 New International Version (NIV)
The Throne in Heaven

4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Johann] #143368
06/14/12 12:53 AM
06/14/12 12:53 AM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Florida, USA
Thank you, Johann. Like you, I don't really believe this subject has much to do with salvation, I just think we should stick to basics and leave the guess work to others.


Harold T.
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Harold Fair] #143369
06/14/12 06:00 AM
06/14/12 06:00 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Harold Fair
That is why I use the KJV. It clearly says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter." Hereafter WHAT? "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Future. I get the same impression from that text as I do Revelation 11:19. Future.


Brother, the most common use of this word "hereafter" is "after this moment".

here·af·ter (hîr-ftr)
adv.
1. Immediately following this in time, order, or place; after this.

In the English Standard Version (the version most quoted from by Mrs. White) the verse says “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” which fits with this interpretation.

In that same chapter (4) the four living creatures say “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”

This proves that that the Lord has come to earth at this time.

So the prophecy of Rev 4 seeing the open door to the throne room in the Holy Place in heaven, gives the heavenly overview of after Jesus left heaven for earth. Then Rev 5 begins showing the need for Jesus to come, then after Jesus came to earth He was found worthy to take the scroll. After the ordination of Jesus in heaven as High Priest entrance into heaven was assured, so Rev 5 is showing the opening of the door to heaven mentioned at the beginning of rev 4. Then we see the opening of the seals in Rev 6.



Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Harold Fair] #143371
06/14/12 06:39 AM
06/14/12 06:39 AM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Harold Fair
Thank you, Johann. Like you, I don't really believe this subject has much to do with salvation, I just think we should stick to basics and leave the guess work to others.

Thank you, Harold. Scripture is given for our edification, and it is alway good to compare Scripture with Scripture. I find it interesting to note how chapter 4 ends:

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

And then notice how this compares with Rev. 14:6-7:

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Johann] #143375
06/14/12 01:02 PM
06/14/12 01:02 PM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Florida, USA
Amen.


Harold T.
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Harold Fair] #143378
06/14/12 03:54 PM
06/14/12 03:54 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Revelation 4 is when Jesus came to earth and the door was open for the Gentiles, "And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles". Acts 14:27 This is the door that was opened in Rev 4.

Revelation 14 is when Jesus entered the most Holy Place to begin judgment and the people of God begin to proclaim the three angels message.




Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: The 24 Elders [Re: Green Cochoa] #143410
06/15/12 06:44 PM
06/15/12 06:44 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,867
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Johann
I am brought up with the understanding that the 24 elders were those who rose up with Christ and went with him to heaven. I see no reason why I should change that now, nor that it has any importance for my salvation.

I fully agree with you, Johann. To my understanding, the 24 elders were representative of the "first fruits" of the earth and are comprised of those whom God has already taken to Heaven.

I find this very disappointing. And surprised someone would actually admit it.

I have found most of what I was brought up with regarding most anything is wrong. And what is disappointing is for someone to just accept what they've been told, that it must be right without questioning it. Something like, we have Abraham as our forefather, comes to mind... Or, I was born a Republican/Democrat/whatever and I'll die one. Or, My pappy believed this way and if it was good enough for him, it's good enough for me.

Whatever happened to the idea of being able to support what you believe, being able to give a reason for what you believe, rather than, "Well, I've always been told..."

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