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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: James Peterson] #163398
03/14/14 10:57 PM
03/14/14 10:57 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Say a woman is smarter than the husband, which admittedly is the case more times than not these days...

If she is wise, she uses her authority to bring peace to the family and strengthens her husband through wise counsel. If he rejects this, that makes him a fool and the family will suffer. But if he accepts her counsel the family is blessed because the one in charge listened to the wisdom the wife received from God. There is no shame in this.

But There is shame for the foolish and wicked husband who will not receive the counsel and governs with an iron fist. The church should get involved then and give counsel, but if he will not listen then his motivations are exposed and he loses his ministry.

The wife should have never made a covenant with such a man and she pays for it the rest of her days. This is a warning against hasty mariages. Do you think she should break the command of God and leave him? That is what a worldly woman would do, and she is no more under the guidance of the Holy Spirit than the man is.

Why are so many foolish people, who are in control of the church right now, saying lets do away with the guidance given by God and follow our own cousel?

****** STAFF EDIT ******

****** STAFF EDIT ****** Here Peter quotes the ****** STAFF EDIT ****** prophet Joel:

Quote:
But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.

And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy."

God has ordained both men AND women equally to minister to His people. If you refuse the guidance HE has given, then say so; and we will understand.

///


To minister yes, to prophesy yes, to govern NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

So you think one text in scripture superceeds others?

This text from Joel is in perfect harmony with Paul's writings if you are led by the Spirit, ****** STAFF EDIT ******

Mrs White received the promise of Joel and her husband James was great man who governed his family in righteousenss, and his wife SUBMITTED to his authority completely unless he was not being guided by the spirit of truth. Then and only then would Mrs White rebuke her husband in the authority of God as a prophet.

****** STAFF EDIT ******

Last edited by Daryl; 03/20/14 12:26 AM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163406
03/15/14 06:07 AM
03/15/14 06:07 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Dedication, why are the names of women and children not counted among the number?

What number are you talking about?

Did you realize that in Paul's letters he personally addresses many women by name ?

of the 28 people Paul greeted in Romans 16, ten of them were women and he commended their ministries more often than he commend men in that list. These commendations may indicate his sensitivity to the opposition women undoubtedly faced for their ministry and are remarkable, given the prejudice against women’s ministry that existed in Paul’s culture.

Quote:
16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a deacon of the church which is at Cenchrea:
16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she has need of you: for she has been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
16:8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
16:9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' [household].
16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the [household] of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
16:12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
16:14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.




I told you before that I am not pushing for women to be ordained as ministers, because I see it is a "power struggle" to be president, not just to minister within the church.

But many of these arguments that antiWO people put forth ARE NOT SCRIPTURAL, but rather have been the twisting of scripture in order to subject and subdue women.

Many of the arguments are based on TRADITION -- a tradition, not on God's will or "order" at all.



Originally Posted By: JamesonofThunder
Do you think God is a mysoganist? Or do you think the apostles were only being influenced by the traditions of the day?

I think people are reading their writings incorrectly.
The apostles were way ahead of their culture in granting women roles within the church.

Jesus broke quite a few "traditional rules" in His relationships with women, and elevating them as equally worthy to enter into conversation with Himself and to sit at his feet (a position disciples would take).

Women travelled with Jesus, just like the disciples did. Something that was NOT common in their culture. No they weren't the specially elected 12, but they were still disciples travelling with Him as He went about His ministry.

Some of them are also named,
Mary called Magdalene, Joanna the wife of Chuza, Susanna, and many others (Luke 8:2,3)




Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
In other words are you saying that Paul was not being inspired to say these things are the law of God?

Of course he was inspired, but people have tended to wrest his sayings to their own understanding.


Like the verse:
"Everything is lawful for me.... in 1 Corinthians 6:12 and the first part of verse 13.

How often have I heard that verse recited by someone who thinks that it really doesn't matter what we do as long as it is in moderation and it doesn't control us?
BUT that understanding is in contradiction to what Paul said in other verses.
It wasn't until I realized Paul was quoting and refuting gnostic teachings in those verses that it all started making perfect sense. Before it seemed like Paul was constantly contradicting himself.

The same with 1 Cor. 14 and the command uttered THREE TIMES in those verses, that women must be silent in church, must not speak, its a shame for them to speak. There's no way one can read those verses as the inspired command and still allow any woman to voice anything in church.
Yet, Paul in other verses allows women to speak in church.

It only makes sense that he is rejecting that saying which OTHERS were saying. OTHERS were saying "women must be silent in church". Paul quotes their impassioned desire to silence all women and counters it by writing, "What? -- Did the Word of God come only to you [men]?

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Why was such a strong injunction placed upon the disciples that ONLY widdows over the age of 60 were to be deacons, and why they were the only women to be counted among the number? Why did Paul say the younger widows were to be excluded?


What?
No --
Reread 1 Timothy 5

Paul is talking about the church financially SUPPORTING widows.
That means -- giving them money with which to live. (Compare with Acts 6:1)

According to his advice --Widows who have relatives should not be supported by the church, their relatives should be providing for them.
Basically Paul is telling families to take care of their own relatives. Younger widows are to go back to their parents and help them or to marry and raise a family so they have something to do and wouldn't be living in idle ease (on church money) and getting into trouble.

Only truly destitute widows -- older widows who have proven their dedication to serving the Lord, and have no one else to support them, should be placed on the church list for financial assistance.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163408
03/15/14 06:34 AM
03/15/14 06:34 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: dedication

Originally Posted By: Jamesonofthunder

My point was that women are to be under subjection to men in the church, which IS biblical!


And I don't agree with that point. Christ is the head of the church, not men. Women are not to be in subjection to men in the church.

Do you realize how many women have been sexually as well as spiritually abused because of that false teaching? Thousands upon thousands, way more than your example of one woman who turned out to be a lesbian. A lot of male ministers have turned out to be homosexuals as well.


Here again is the same argument you guys always run to. You always say "Look how many women have been abused under these guidelines".

I have said over and over that the abuses of men are no excuse not to follow the commands of God.

You said "I don't agree with that point. Christ is the head of the church, not men. Women are not to be in subjection to men in the church."

But 1 Corinthians 11:3 says; "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

You just in essence said you don't believe that this is inspired?



MY BIBLE says women are to be submissive to their OWN husbands.
No where does my bible say women are to be in subjection to all other men.
Women are no more under subjection to ecclesiastical leaders than men are.


Quote:
1 Corinthians 11:3 says; "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.


In Cor. 11:3 do you see the word "THE" the man -- "the woman" singular. One man, one woman -- as in husband and wife.
It's not saying ALL men in the church.
And Eph. plainly says "OWN" husband, not all men.

Husbands are to love and protect their wives, and wives are to respect and listen to their husbands. The husband is the head in his family.

BOTH husband and wife are to respect and listen to their pastor, to support and encourage him, but they are not to be IN SUBJECTION to the pastor.
The text says CHRIST is the head of the church. We are to be in subjection to Him.

This idea of subjection to ecclesiastical figure heads that call themselves "father", is a purely Catholic doctrine -- this being in subjection to or (ruled over) by the men in ecclesiastical leadership positions. In fact I was just browsing through a book earlier this week written by a Catholic priest on ecumenical unity. One of his points -- people follow their pastor so get the pastors of the various churches on board and the sheep will follow. Right into the wolf's den, I might add.

The local church is to be run by the board members composed of men and women praying together and deciding on church issues together, not by a kingly power that thinks to subject the membership under himself.





Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163412
03/15/14 02:10 PM
03/15/14 02:10 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
MY BIBLE says women are to be submissive to their OWN husbands. No where does my bible say women are to be in subjection to all other men. Women are no more under subjection to ecclesiastical leaders than men are.
I have argued the same point! There are more than just jsot that take issue with this on MSABOL. The whole issue of clergy and laity is at issue. See:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=163316#Post163316


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: APL] #163435
03/15/14 09:53 PM
03/15/14 09:53 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: dedication
MY BIBLE says women are to be submissive to their OWN husbands. No where does my bible say women are to be in subjection to all other men. Women are no more under subjection to ecclesiastical leaders than men are.
I have argued the same point! There are more than just jsot that take issue with this on MSABOL. The whole issue of clergy and laity is at issue. See:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=163316#Post163316


This is what I've seen as well.
Whether or not women are actually ordained isn't my concerned, we have plenty of freedom now to witness for the Lord.

But the elevation of the clergy to an authority to rule over the church is redefining the role of the pastor to match the role of the priest in the Catholic church.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163444
03/16/14 12:34 AM
03/16/14 12:34 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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"Eve was told of the sorrow and pain that must be her portion. “Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” God had made her the equal of Adam. But sin brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of one or the other. Eve had been the first in transgression. By her solicitation Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. Man’s abuse of the supremacy thus given him has too often rendered the lot of woman bitter and her life a burden. {EP 27.4}

****** STAFF EDIT ******

"Every family is a church, over which the parents preside. The first consideration of the parents should be to work for the salvation of their children. When the father (priest) and mother (teacher) as priest and teacher of the family take their position fully on the side of Christ, a good influence will be exerted in the home. And this sanctified influence will be felt in the church and will be recognized by every believer. Because of the great lack of piety and sanctification in the home, the work of God is greatly hindered. No man can bring into the church an influence that he does not exert in his home life and in his business relations.3 {CG 549.1}

"Morning and evening the father, as priest of the household, should confess to God the sins committed by himself and his children through the day. Those sins which have come to his knowledge and also those which are secret, of which God’s eye alone has taken cognizance, should be confessed. This rule of action, zealously carried out by the father when he is present or by the mother when he is absent, will result in blessings to the family.5 {AH 212.1}

"Those who have too little courage to reprove wrong, or who through indolence or lack of interest make no earnest effort to purify the family or the church of God, are held accountable for the evil that may result from their neglect of duty. We are just as responsible for evils that we might have checked in others by exercise of parental or pastoral authority, as if the acts had been our own.10 {CG 235.4}

****** STAFF EDIT ******

Last edited by Daryl; 03/19/14 11:56 PM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163462
03/16/14 06:27 PM
03/16/14 06:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Dedication, you have provided food for thought. Well done.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163532
03/18/14 11:00 AM
03/18/14 11:00 AM
Daryl  Offline

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MOD HAT ON!!!!!

Thread closed for Admin review.

MOD HAT OFF!!!!!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163577
03/20/14 12:57 AM
03/20/14 12:57 AM
Daryl  Offline

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ADMIN HAT ON!!!!!

As I did a lot of thread cleaning and either removed or edited a lot of posts, I decided to re-open this thread.

ADMIN HAT ON!!!!!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #163631
03/23/14 12:21 AM
03/23/14 12:21 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.

I think the Greek word is much more cohesive than the English usages have come to be. We think of "minister" as an elevated position. But the word is more synonymous with the likes of "servant." Let the Bible explain itself, rather than imposing modern meanings upon ancient words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This is just what I have been saying. This is the reason why terms like minister, servant, and deacon, are almost like synonyms. One reason why I have such a difficulty understanding why certain people regard themselves as conservatives, and yet, perhaps reluctantly, agree that deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

Why should we today invent such distinctions that were unknown to Paul, just to invent a strange doctrine to make it possible to ordain some and not others?


Paul has been quoted as calling for Deacons and Elders to be a man of one wife, etc... So, Paul was aware that women should never be considered a Priest. Consequently, not a preacher of the Gospel. 1 Cor. 9:13-14.

Paul was also aware of what he said in 1 Cor. 11:1-16 when he simply stated that "man is head of the woman" in the "churches of God".

As far as deaconess is concerned; a deaconess is under the supervision of pastors and elders and therefore is ordained to a certain ministry. A deaconess is not the same as a Pastor or Elder! All these efforts to "universalize" all these positions is grossly unBiblical.

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