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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Daryl] #146614
11/05/12 03:44 PM
11/05/12 03:44 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.

I think the Greek word is much more cohesive than the English usages have come to be. We think of "minister" as an elevated position. But the word is more synonymous with the likes of "servant." Let the Bible explain itself, rather than imposing modern meanings upon ancient words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146623
11/05/12 06:07 PM
11/05/12 06:07 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.

I think the Greek word is much more cohesive than the English usages have come to be. We think of "minister" as an elevated position. But the word is more synonymous with the likes of "servant." Let the Bible explain itself, rather than imposing modern meanings upon ancient words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This is just what I have been saying. This is the reason why terms like minister, servant, and deacon, are almost like synonyms. One reason why I have such a difficulty understanding why certain people regard themselves as conservatives, and yet, perhaps reluctantly, agree that deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

Why should we today invent such distinctions that were unknown to Paul, just to invent a strange doctrine to make it possible to ordain some and not others?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146631
11/05/12 11:20 PM
11/05/12 11:20 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
"Unknown to Paul," Johann? Let's hear his side of the story...
Originally Posted By: Paul
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:12)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146636
11/06/12 01:34 AM
11/06/12 01:34 AM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
"Unknown to Paul," Johann? Let's hear his side of the story...
Originally Posted By: Paul
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:12)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Did you ever consider what you have shown Paul said about Phoebe?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146637
11/06/12 01:49 AM
11/06/12 01:49 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Sure.

Originally Posted By: Paul
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [or deaconess] of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (Romans 16:1-2)


There is no contradiction in the Word of God, and Paul does not contradict himself. I have experience serving as a deacon. Deacons do things like make sure the doors are open in the morning for everyone to enter the church, turn on the lights and the sound system, line up the chairs, if necessary, on the platform, and help to collect the offering. A deaconess would do similar church duties of a more feminine nature, perhaps.

Deacons and deaconesses are not at church to be authority figures. They are there to serve.

Unfortunately, too many of our modern pastors and ministers have lost sight of their true service-oriented positions as well, and think that they must be "ordained" in order to "rule." But the Bible does not indicate this.

Again, this thread is about establishing what the Bible teaches. I would prefer to focus more on what is taught than on what is not taught. There are multiple other threads on the topic of ordination right now where other concepts relative to the topic may be discussed. With this topic, please come with your Bible at hand.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146638
11/06/12 01:58 AM
11/06/12 01:58 AM
Johann  Offline
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Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Sure.

Originally Posted By: Paul
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [or deaconess] of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (Romans 16:1-2)


There is no contradiction in the Word of God, and Paul does not contradict himself. I have experience serving as a deacon. Deacons do things like make sure the doors are open in the morning for everyone to enter the church, turn on the lights and the sound system, line up the chairs, if necessary, on the platform, and help to collect the offering. A deaconess would do similar church duties of a more feminine nature, perhaps.

Deacons and deaconesses are not at church to be authority figures. They are there to serve.

Unfortunately, too many of our modern pastors and ministers have lost sight of their true service-oriented positions as well, and think that they must be "ordained" in order to "rule." But the Bible does not indicate this.

Again, this thread is about establishing what the Bible teaches. I would prefer to focus more on what is taught than on what is not taught. There are multiple other threads on the topic of ordination right now where other concepts relative to the topic may be discussed. With this topic, please come with your Bible at hand.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I asked a question about the Bible. Why do you then come with a long explanation that is not in the Bible?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146642
11/06/12 07:48 AM
11/06/12 07:48 AM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,585
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

What Paul and the other NT writers called "ministers" may not be what we have in mind. Should we ordain everything that they called diakonos? Were the servants that helped Jesus turn water into wine what you consider "ordained ministers"?

I'm guessing that's not exactly what the women are yearning to be. But if it is, you certainly don't need the laying on of hands to get that job.

Last edited by asygo; 11/06/12 07:50 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Rick H] #146646
11/06/12 10:47 AM
11/06/12 10:47 AM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I guess I will have to go dig it into it, but where did 'Elder' or the position of the elders come from, is it the equivalent of deacon?


The Greek word is generally "presbyteros". Translated mostly "elder" in English versions.

Going through the lists in my Young's Analytical I notice that all through the Old Testament and the Gospels the term applies generally to tribal leaders or captains in Israel.

It does not seem to apply to church leaders until in Acts.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #146647
11/06/12 10:55 AM
11/06/12 10:55 AM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Johann
deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

What Paul and the other NT writers called "ministers" may not be what we have in mind. Should we ordain everything that they called diakonos? Were the servants that helped Jesus turn water into wine what you consider "ordained ministers"?

I'm guessing that's not exactly what the women are yearning to be. But if it is, you certainly don't need the laying on of hands to get that job.


The general meaning of "ordain" appears to be "appoint". Somewhere in the writings of Rllen White I have seen her saying something like every person should be ordained to whatever task they are appointed to do. Can you find the quotation?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146651
11/06/12 02:51 PM
11/06/12 02:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I can't get past the fact nowhere in the Bible is ordaining women to serve as elders or pastors prohibited. And, coupled with the fact Jesus Himself ordained women to serve and lead the chosen people, it is hard to imagine ordaining women as something evil or sinful or prohibited.

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