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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146659
11/06/12 04:25 PM
11/06/12 04:25 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I guess I will have to go dig it into it, but where did 'Elder' or the position of the elders come from, is it the equivalent of deacon?


The Greek word is generally "presbyteros". Translated mostly "elder" in English versions.

Going through the lists in my Young's Analytical I notice that all through the Old Testament and the Gospels the term applies generally to tribal leaders or captains in Israel.

It does not seem to apply to church leaders until in Acts.

Is this what our modern pastors are? Or are they diakonos?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146660
11/06/12 04:35 PM
11/06/12 04:35 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Johann
deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

What Paul and the other NT writers called "ministers" may not be what we have in mind. Should we ordain everything that they called diakonos? Were the servants that helped Jesus turn water into wine what you consider "ordained ministers"?

I'm guessing that's not exactly what the women are yearning to be. But if it is, you certainly don't need the laying on of hands to get that job.


The general meaning of "ordain" appears to be "appoint". Somewhere in the writings of Rllen White I have seen her saying something like every person should be ordained to whatever task they are appointed to do. Can you find the quotation?

In keeping with the "Bible only" thrust of the thread, I won't post SOP here. More importantly, that concept is firmly established by Scripture alone. The Bible words, such as kathistemi, are not limited to the ordination we usually think of.

Given the broader scope of biblical ordination, we should probably be ordaining deaconesses, SS teachers, organists, etc. If you think about it, the Levites performed those duties. But that's not what the WO proponents are seeking, is it?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #146661
11/06/12 04:42 PM
11/06/12 04:42 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I can't get past the fact nowhere in the Bible is ordaining women to serve as elders or pastors prohibited. And, coupled with the fact Jesus Himself ordained women to serve and lead the chosen people, it is hard to imagine ordaining women as something evil or sinful or prohibited.

Let's dissect that to see if we can discover something new inside.

1. Where does the Bible say we should ordain elders at all?
2. Where does the Bible say who can or cannot be a pastor? What are the qualifications?
3. Are elders and pastors the same?
4. Where did Jesus ordain women to serve?
5. Where did Jesus ordain women to lead His flock?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146672
11/07/12 03:39 AM
11/07/12 03:39 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Paul
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [or deaconess] of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (Romans 16:1-2)


There is no contradiction in the Word of God, and Paul does not contradict himself. I have experience serving as a deacon. Deacons do things like make sure the doors are open in the morning for everyone to enter the church, turn on the lights and the sound system, line up the chairs, if necessary, on the platform, and help to collect the offering. A deaconess would do similar church duties of a more feminine nature, perhaps.

I don't think the Bible limits diakonos to such tasks. Paul and Timothy were diakonos, as was Stephen.

Speaking of Stephen, Acts tells us the apostles wanted to spend their time in the "ministry" of the word. The root is the same as deacon.

But here's where Phebe makes the biggest impact, IMO: 1Tim 3 gives us the qualifications for deacons, including "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife." (v 12) Phebe was not, but Paul calls her a deacon anyway.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #146674
11/07/12 03:54 AM
11/07/12 03:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Arnold,

Where does the Bible indicate that Paul was diakonos? I have not found that, although I was looking for him to be an elder. Acts 14:23 says that Paul ordained elders. Can a deacon ordain an elder?

Peter was clearly an elder (1 Peter 5:1). And Titus was sent to ordain elders by Paul (Titus 1:5).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146675
11/07/12 04:00 AM
11/07/12 04:00 AM
asygo  Offline
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Col 1:23 ... I Paul am made a minister;
1Th 3:2 ... And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #146683
11/07/12 06:45 AM
11/07/12 06:45 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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So you're saying that the word "minister" in those verses was "diakonos," right? But "diakonos" really means "servant," doesn't it? In a sense, should we not all, as Christians under the Gospel Commission, be "ministers?"

Each of us should have a ministry. Some have a ministry in feeding the homeless. Some provide housing for the homeless. Some conduct medical ministry work. Some minister in other ways. But most "ministers" are not of the "ordained" variety in our church today. Ordained by God, perhaps, but they are not ordained by the church leadership to a public church office.

The word "diakonos" means:
Originally Posted By: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
1249.διάκονος diakonos, dee-ak'-on-os; prob. from an obs. διώκω diakō (to run on errands; comp. 1377); an attendant, i.e. (gen.) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); spec. a Chr. teacher and pastor (techn. a deacon or deaconess):-deacon, minister, servant.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146684
11/07/12 09:56 AM
11/07/12 09:56 AM
Johann  Offline
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Here is another dictionary definition:

Quote:
1. univ.: of the servant of a king, Mt. xxii. 13; with gen. of the pers. served, Mt. xx. 26; xxiii. 11; Mk. ix. 35; x. 43, (in which pass. it is used fig. of those who advance others’ interests even at the sacrifice of their own); τῆς ἐκκλησίας, of one who does what promotes the welfare and prosperity of the church, Col. i. 25; διάκονοι τοῦ θεοῦ, those through whom God carries on his administration on earth, as magistrates, Ro. xiii. 4; teachers of the Christian religion, 1 Co. iii. 5; 2 Co. vi. 4; 1 Th. iii. 2 R T Tr WH txt. L mrg.; the same are called διάκονοι (τοῦ) Χριστοῦ, 2 Co. xi. 23; Col. i. 7; 1 Tim. iv. 6; ἐν κυρίῳ, in the cause of the Lord, Col. iv. 7; [Eph. vi. 21]; ὁ διάκ. μου my follower, Jn. xii. 26; τοῦ Σατανᾶ, whom Satan uses as a servant, 2 Co. xi. 15; [ἁμαρτίας, Gal. ii. 17]; διάκ. περιτομῆς (abstr. for concr.), of Christ, who labored for the salvation of the circumcised i. e. the Jews, Ro. xv. 8; with gen. of the thing to which service is rendered, i. e. to which one is devoted: καινῆς διαθήκης, 2 Co. iii. 6; τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, Eph. iii. 7; Col. i. 23; δικαιοσύνης, 2 Co. xi. 15




"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146689
11/07/12 04:42 PM
11/07/12 04:42 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
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California, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
So you're saying that the word "minister" in those verses was "diakonos," right? But "diakonos" really means "servant," doesn't it? In a sense, should we not all, as Christians under the Gospel Commission, be "ministers?"

Yes, yes, and yes. That is the Bible teaching.

But it should reveal to us that the common understanding of a deacon as merely one who turns on the lights and collects offering is not biblical. We have strayed from God's plan.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Each of us should have a ministry. Some have a ministry in feeding the homeless. Some provide housing for the homeless. Some conduct medical ministry work. Some minister in other ways. But most "ministers" are not of the "ordained" variety in our church today. Ordained by God, perhaps, but they are not ordained by the church leadership to a public church office.

Let's also see the broad biblical concept of ordination, as we now do for deacon. If one has been called by God to serve (deacon) in a certain ministry, shouldn't His people acknowledge that by ordaining (appoint, dedicate, set in charge, etc.) that person to that ministry? It seems obvious to me.

It is also obvious to me that God did not require seminary training in order to be an ordained minister. Like for deacons, we have altered God's plan.

So it looks like we have fallen into two extremes: we add requirements to qualify to become one type of ordained minister (pastor), while we diminish the role of another type of ordained minister (deacon).

And for those who have served on a nominating committee, you know that it is exceedingly rare to consult 1Tim 3 when nominating deacons. Many think, "How hard can it be to turn on lights and collect offering?"

Last edited by asygo; 11/07/12 06:38 PM. Reason: clarity

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #146698
11/08/12 10:50 AM
11/08/12 10:50 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo

Is this what our modern pastors are? Or are they diakonos?


Perhaps something to do with the culture governing the people who read the Bible. When visiting our Newbold College in England I have seen a Church of England church in the vicinity. The pastor there wears the garb of a priest but is called a deacon.

What would happen in our churches if we suddenly start calling our pastors deacons? Is that Biblical? Would the Adventist culture permit that?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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