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"Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective #146148
10/22/12 03:55 AM
10/22/12 03:55 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
This topic is opened for the purpose of studying the concept of ordination, including concepts of priesthood, ministry, eldership, bishops, deacons, deaconesses, discipleship, apostleship, etc., from the Bible alone. There are other threads where extra-biblical sources can be discussed freely, including those of policy, tradition, or modern authors and scholars. While it should be clear that those sources are not denied legitimacy here, our interest here is to look simply at what the Bible itself has to teach on this subject.

Please feel free to include Bible-study tools such as concordances, lexicons, dictionaries and the like, but try to avoid commentaries or other outside sources. Thank you!

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146150
10/22/12 04:57 AM
10/22/12 04:57 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Let's start with all of the Bible texts (using the KJV standard) on the topic of ordination that relate to people and use some form of the word "ordain" in the English translation. (There are some uses of "ordain" that relate to objects or actions outside the scope of this topic which we will ignore.)

Principal Texts on Ordination
1 Chronicles 9:22All these [which were] chosen to be porters in the gates [were] two hundred and twelve. These were reckoned by their genealogy in their villages, whom David and Samuel the seer did ordain in their set office.
2 Chronicles 11:14-15For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD: And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
Jeremiah 1:4-5Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Mark 3:14-15And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
John 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Acts 1:21-26Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], show whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Acts 10:40-42Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.
Acts 14:23And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
Acts 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
1 Corinthians 7:17-20But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
1 Timothy 2:7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Titus 1:5-6For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Hebrews 5:1-4For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron.
Hebrews 8:1-3Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore [it is] of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146391
10/28/12 10:09 PM
10/28/12 10:09 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Nova Scotia, Canada
Bumping this for further input.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146406
10/29/12 06:07 AM
10/29/12 06:07 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Now here are all of the Bible texts relating to deacons and/or deaconesses. Some of these will not use the English word "deacon" but are from a Greek form or synonym of the word.



Principal Texts on Deaconry
Strong's Number G1247 matches the Greek διακονέω (diakoneō), which occurs 38 times in 32 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV.
Mat 4:11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Mat 8:15And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
Mat 20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mat 25:44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 27:55And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
Mar 1:13And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Mar 1:31And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up; and immediately the fever left her, and she ministered unto them.
Mar 10:45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mar 15:41(Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
Luk 4:39And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it left her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them.
Luk 8:3And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.
Luk 10:40But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
Luk 12:37Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Luk 17:8And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 22:26But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Jhn 12:2There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
Jhn 12:26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
Act 6:2Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples [unto them], and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Act 19:22So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
Rom 15:25But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
2Cr 3:3[Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cr 8:19And not [that] only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and [declaration of] your ready mind:
2Cr 8:20Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us:
1Ti 3:10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless.
1Ti 3:13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:18The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
Phm 1:13Whom I would have retained with me, that in thy stead he might have ministered unto me in the bonds of the gospel:
Hbr 6:10For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
1Pe 1:12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 4:10As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pe 4:11If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146542
11/03/12 07:12 AM
11/03/12 07:12 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,585
California, USA
That's the verb form. The noun form of the word is diakonos (G1249). We can see all the verses here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1249&t=KJV

It is interesting that Paul applies the word to Phebe.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146545
11/03/12 11:16 AM
11/03/12 11:16 AM
Rick H  Offline

Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,172
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Now here are all of the Bible texts relating to deacons and/or deaconesses. Some of these will not use the English word "deacon" but are from a Greek form or synonym of the word.



Principal Texts on Deaconry
Strong's Number G1247 matches the Greek διακονέω (diakoneō), which occurs 38 times in 32 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV.
Mat 4:11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Mat 8:15And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
Mat 20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mat 25:44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 27:55And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
Mar 1:13And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Mar 1:31And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up; and immediately the fever left her, and she ministered unto them.
Mar 10:45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mar 15:41(Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
Luk 4:39And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it left her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them.
Luk 8:3And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.
Luk 10:40But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
Luk 12:37Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Luk 17:8And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 22:26But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Jhn 12:2There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
Jhn 12:26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
Act 6:2Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples [unto them], and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Act 19:22So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
Rom 15:25But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
2Cr 3:3[Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cr 8:19And not [that] only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and [declaration of] your ready mind:
2Cr 8:20Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us:
1Ti 3:10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless.
1Ti 3:13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:18The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
Phm 1:13Whom I would have retained with me, that in thy stead he might have ministered unto me in the bonds of the gospel:
Hbr 6:10For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
1Pe 1:12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 4:10As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pe 4:11If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Green Cochoa, I guess I will have to go dig it into it, but where did 'Elder' or the position of the elders come from, is it the equivalent of deacon?

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 11/03/12 03:07 PM. Reason: Enabled HTML
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Rick H] #146553
11/03/12 02:52 PM
11/03/12 02:52 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,585
California, USA
It is different, but the qualifications are similar. See 1 Tim 3.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146604
11/05/12 05:15 AM
11/05/12 05:15 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Thanks to Arnold's contribution, here is the list of verses containing the noun form of "deacon" in the Greek.

Principal Texts on Deaconry
Strong's Number G1249 matches the Greek διάκονος (diakonos), which occurs 31 times in 29 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of all.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Jhn 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [it].
Jhn 2:9 [G1161] When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
Rom 16:1 [G1161] I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
Rom 16:27 To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. [[[Written to the Romans from Corinthus, [and sent] by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.]]]
1Cr 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man 1538?
2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Cr 6:4 But in all [things] approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2Cr 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 6:21 But that ye also may know my affairs, [and] how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:
Phl 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Col 1:7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 4:7 All my state shall Tychicus declare unto you, [who is] a beloved brother, and a faithful minister and fellowservant in the Lord:
1Th 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146609
11/05/12 01:32 PM
11/05/12 01:32 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,126
Nova Scotia, Canada
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Daryl] #146613
11/05/12 03:09 PM
11/05/12 03:09 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.


Or governed by a strict order by the King, like in the KJV, to be certain the new Bible is fully in accordance with the doctrines established by papacy and inherited by the Church of England. . . and followed with waggling tails by all of those who believe this to be the only possible truth.

Actually the translators of KJV also followed how this and several other words had already been translated earlier with the approval of the establishment. This is by many regarded as the only true conservatism, conserved by tradition.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Daryl] #146614
11/05/12 03:44 PM
11/05/12 03:44 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.

I think the Greek word is much more cohesive than the English usages have come to be. We think of "minister" as an elevated position. But the word is more synonymous with the likes of "servant." Let the Bible explain itself, rather than imposing modern meanings upon ancient words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146623
11/05/12 06:07 PM
11/05/12 06:07 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.

I think the Greek word is much more cohesive than the English usages have come to be. We think of "minister" as an elevated position. But the word is more synonymous with the likes of "servant." Let the Bible explain itself, rather than imposing modern meanings upon ancient words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This is just what I have been saying. This is the reason why terms like minister, servant, and deacon, are almost like synonyms. One reason why I have such a difficulty understanding why certain people regard themselves as conservatives, and yet, perhaps reluctantly, agree that deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

Why should we today invent such distinctions that were unknown to Paul, just to invent a strange doctrine to make it possible to ordain some and not others?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146631
11/05/12 11:20 PM
11/05/12 11:20 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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"Unknown to Paul," Johann? Let's hear his side of the story...
Originally Posted By: Paul
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:12)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146636
11/06/12 01:34 AM
11/06/12 01:34 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
"Unknown to Paul," Johann? Let's hear his side of the story...
Originally Posted By: Paul
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:12)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Did you ever consider what you have shown Paul said about Phoebe?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146637
11/06/12 01:49 AM
11/06/12 01:49 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Sure.

Originally Posted By: Paul
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [or deaconess] of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (Romans 16:1-2)


There is no contradiction in the Word of God, and Paul does not contradict himself. I have experience serving as a deacon. Deacons do things like make sure the doors are open in the morning for everyone to enter the church, turn on the lights and the sound system, line up the chairs, if necessary, on the platform, and help to collect the offering. A deaconess would do similar church duties of a more feminine nature, perhaps.

Deacons and deaconesses are not at church to be authority figures. They are there to serve.

Unfortunately, too many of our modern pastors and ministers have lost sight of their true service-oriented positions as well, and think that they must be "ordained" in order to "rule." But the Bible does not indicate this.

Again, this thread is about establishing what the Bible teaches. I would prefer to focus more on what is taught than on what is not taught. There are multiple other threads on the topic of ordination right now where other concepts relative to the topic may be discussed. With this topic, please come with your Bible at hand.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146638
11/06/12 01:58 AM
11/06/12 01:58 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Sure.

Originally Posted By: Paul
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [or deaconess] of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (Romans 16:1-2)


There is no contradiction in the Word of God, and Paul does not contradict himself. I have experience serving as a deacon. Deacons do things like make sure the doors are open in the morning for everyone to enter the church, turn on the lights and the sound system, line up the chairs, if necessary, on the platform, and help to collect the offering. A deaconess would do similar church duties of a more feminine nature, perhaps.

Deacons and deaconesses are not at church to be authority figures. They are there to serve.

Unfortunately, too many of our modern pastors and ministers have lost sight of their true service-oriented positions as well, and think that they must be "ordained" in order to "rule." But the Bible does not indicate this.

Again, this thread is about establishing what the Bible teaches. I would prefer to focus more on what is taught than on what is not taught. There are multiple other threads on the topic of ordination right now where other concepts relative to the topic may be discussed. With this topic, please come with your Bible at hand.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I asked a question about the Bible. Why do you then come with a long explanation that is not in the Bible?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146642
11/06/12 07:48 AM
11/06/12 07:48 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

What Paul and the other NT writers called "ministers" may not be what we have in mind. Should we ordain everything that they called diakonos? Were the servants that helped Jesus turn water into wine what you consider "ordained ministers"?

I'm guessing that's not exactly what the women are yearning to be. But if it is, you certainly don't need the laying on of hands to get that job.

Last edited by asygo; 11/06/12 07:50 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Rick H] #146646
11/06/12 10:47 AM
11/06/12 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: Rick H
I guess I will have to go dig it into it, but where did 'Elder' or the position of the elders come from, is it the equivalent of deacon?


The Greek word is generally "presbyteros". Translated mostly "elder" in English versions.

Going through the lists in my Young's Analytical I notice that all through the Old Testament and the Gospels the term applies generally to tribal leaders or captains in Israel.

It does not seem to apply to church leaders until in Acts.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #146647
11/06/12 10:55 AM
11/06/12 10:55 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Johann
deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

What Paul and the other NT writers called "ministers" may not be what we have in mind. Should we ordain everything that they called diakonos? Were the servants that helped Jesus turn water into wine what you consider "ordained ministers"?

I'm guessing that's not exactly what the women are yearning to be. But if it is, you certainly don't need the laying on of hands to get that job.


The general meaning of "ordain" appears to be "appoint". Somewhere in the writings of Rllen White I have seen her saying something like every person should be ordained to whatever task they are appointed to do. Can you find the quotation?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146651
11/06/12 02:51 PM
11/06/12 02:51 PM
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I can't get past the fact nowhere in the Bible is ordaining women to serve as elders or pastors prohibited. And, coupled with the fact Jesus Himself ordained women to serve and lead the chosen people, it is hard to imagine ordaining women as something evil or sinful or prohibited.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146659
11/06/12 04:25 PM
11/06/12 04:25 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I guess I will have to go dig it into it, but where did 'Elder' or the position of the elders come from, is it the equivalent of deacon?


The Greek word is generally "presbyteros". Translated mostly "elder" in English versions.

Going through the lists in my Young's Analytical I notice that all through the Old Testament and the Gospels the term applies generally to tribal leaders or captains in Israel.

It does not seem to apply to church leaders until in Acts.

Is this what our modern pastors are? Or are they diakonos?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146660
11/06/12 04:35 PM
11/06/12 04:35 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Johann
deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

What Paul and the other NT writers called "ministers" may not be what we have in mind. Should we ordain everything that they called diakonos? Were the servants that helped Jesus turn water into wine what you consider "ordained ministers"?

I'm guessing that's not exactly what the women are yearning to be. But if it is, you certainly don't need the laying on of hands to get that job.


The general meaning of "ordain" appears to be "appoint". Somewhere in the writings of Rllen White I have seen her saying something like every person should be ordained to whatever task they are appointed to do. Can you find the quotation?

In keeping with the "Bible only" thrust of the thread, I won't post SOP here. More importantly, that concept is firmly established by Scripture alone. The Bible words, such as kathistemi, are not limited to the ordination we usually think of.

Given the broader scope of biblical ordination, we should probably be ordaining deaconesses, SS teachers, organists, etc. If you think about it, the Levites performed those duties. But that's not what the WO proponents are seeking, is it?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #146661
11/06/12 04:42 PM
11/06/12 04:42 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I can't get past the fact nowhere in the Bible is ordaining women to serve as elders or pastors prohibited. And, coupled with the fact Jesus Himself ordained women to serve and lead the chosen people, it is hard to imagine ordaining women as something evil or sinful or prohibited.

Let's dissect that to see if we can discover something new inside.

1. Where does the Bible say we should ordain elders at all?
2. Where does the Bible say who can or cannot be a pastor? What are the qualifications?
3. Are elders and pastors the same?
4. Where did Jesus ordain women to serve?
5. Where did Jesus ordain women to lead His flock?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146672
11/07/12 03:39 AM
11/07/12 03:39 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Paul
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [or deaconess] of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (Romans 16:1-2)


There is no contradiction in the Word of God, and Paul does not contradict himself. I have experience serving as a deacon. Deacons do things like make sure the doors are open in the morning for everyone to enter the church, turn on the lights and the sound system, line up the chairs, if necessary, on the platform, and help to collect the offering. A deaconess would do similar church duties of a more feminine nature, perhaps.

I don't think the Bible limits diakonos to such tasks. Paul and Timothy were diakonos, as was Stephen.

Speaking of Stephen, Acts tells us the apostles wanted to spend their time in the "ministry" of the word. The root is the same as deacon.

But here's where Phebe makes the biggest impact, IMO: 1Tim 3 gives us the qualifications for deacons, including "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife." (v 12) Phebe was not, but Paul calls her a deacon anyway.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #146674
11/07/12 03:54 AM
11/07/12 03:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Arnold,

Where does the Bible indicate that Paul was diakonos? I have not found that, although I was looking for him to be an elder. Acts 14:23 says that Paul ordained elders. Can a deacon ordain an elder?

Peter was clearly an elder (1 Peter 5:1). And Titus was sent to ordain elders by Paul (Titus 1:5).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146675
11/07/12 04:00 AM
11/07/12 04:00 AM
asygo  Offline
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Col 1:23 ... I Paul am made a minister;
1Th 3:2 ... And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #146683
11/07/12 06:45 AM
11/07/12 06:45 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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So you're saying that the word "minister" in those verses was "diakonos," right? But "diakonos" really means "servant," doesn't it? In a sense, should we not all, as Christians under the Gospel Commission, be "ministers?"

Each of us should have a ministry. Some have a ministry in feeding the homeless. Some provide housing for the homeless. Some conduct medical ministry work. Some minister in other ways. But most "ministers" are not of the "ordained" variety in our church today. Ordained by God, perhaps, but they are not ordained by the church leadership to a public church office.

The word "diakonos" means:
Originally Posted By: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
1249.διάκονος diakonos, dee-ak'-on-os; prob. from an obs. διώκω diakō (to run on errands; comp. 1377); an attendant, i.e. (gen.) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); spec. a Chr. teacher and pastor (techn. a deacon or deaconess):-deacon, minister, servant.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146684
11/07/12 09:56 AM
11/07/12 09:56 AM
Johann  Offline
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Here is another dictionary definition:

Quote:
1. univ.: of the servant of a king, Mt. xxii. 13; with gen. of the pers. served, Mt. xx. 26; xxiii. 11; Mk. ix. 35; x. 43, (in which pass. it is used fig. of those who advance others’ interests even at the sacrifice of their own); τῆς ἐκκλησίας, of one who does what promotes the welfare and prosperity of the church, Col. i. 25; διάκονοι τοῦ θεοῦ, those through whom God carries on his administration on earth, as magistrates, Ro. xiii. 4; teachers of the Christian religion, 1 Co. iii. 5; 2 Co. vi. 4; 1 Th. iii. 2 R T Tr WH txt. L mrg.; the same are called διάκονοι (τοῦ) Χριστοῦ, 2 Co. xi. 23; Col. i. 7; 1 Tim. iv. 6; ἐν κυρίῳ, in the cause of the Lord, Col. iv. 7; [Eph. vi. 21]; ὁ διάκ. μου my follower, Jn. xii. 26; τοῦ Σατανᾶ, whom Satan uses as a servant, 2 Co. xi. 15; [ἁμαρτίας, Gal. ii. 17]; διάκ. περιτομῆς (abstr. for concr.), of Christ, who labored for the salvation of the circumcised i. e. the Jews, Ro. xv. 8; with gen. of the thing to which service is rendered, i. e. to which one is devoted: καινῆς διαθήκης, 2 Co. iii. 6; τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, Eph. iii. 7; Col. i. 23; δικαιοσύνης, 2 Co. xi. 15




"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146689
11/07/12 04:42 PM
11/07/12 04:42 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
So you're saying that the word "minister" in those verses was "diakonos," right? But "diakonos" really means "servant," doesn't it? In a sense, should we not all, as Christians under the Gospel Commission, be "ministers?"

Yes, yes, and yes. That is the Bible teaching.

But it should reveal to us that the common understanding of a deacon as merely one who turns on the lights and collects offering is not biblical. We have strayed from God's plan.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Each of us should have a ministry. Some have a ministry in feeding the homeless. Some provide housing for the homeless. Some conduct medical ministry work. Some minister in other ways. But most "ministers" are not of the "ordained" variety in our church today. Ordained by God, perhaps, but they are not ordained by the church leadership to a public church office.

Let's also see the broad biblical concept of ordination, as we now do for deacon. If one has been called by God to serve (deacon) in a certain ministry, shouldn't His people acknowledge that by ordaining (appoint, dedicate, set in charge, etc.) that person to that ministry? It seems obvious to me.

It is also obvious to me that God did not require seminary training in order to be an ordained minister. Like for deacons, we have altered God's plan.

So it looks like we have fallen into two extremes: we add requirements to qualify to become one type of ordained minister (pastor), while we diminish the role of another type of ordained minister (deacon).

And for those who have served on a nominating committee, you know that it is exceedingly rare to consult 1Tim 3 when nominating deacons. Many think, "How hard can it be to turn on lights and collect offering?"

Last edited by asygo; 11/07/12 06:38 PM. Reason: clarity

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #146698
11/08/12 10:50 AM
11/08/12 10:50 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo

Is this what our modern pastors are? Or are they diakonos?


Perhaps something to do with the culture governing the people who read the Bible. When visiting our Newbold College in England I have seen a Church of England church in the vicinity. The pastor there wears the garb of a priest but is called a deacon.

What would happen in our churches if we suddenly start calling our pastors deacons? Is that Biblical? Would the Adventist culture permit that?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #146699
11/08/12 11:07 AM
11/08/12 11:07 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo

But it should reveal to us that the common understanding of a deacon as merely one who turns on the lights and collects offering is not biblical. We have strayed from God's plan.


Like for deacons, we have altered God's plan.

So it looks like we have fallen into two extremes: we add requirements to qualify to become one type of ordained minister (pastor), while we diminish the role of another type of ordained minister (deacon).

Many think, "How hard can it be to turn on lights and collect offering?"


This seems to be the problem.

In a Greek dictionary I have seen the original biblical definition of diakonos as an "associate apostle". How far have we gone from that original definition? It would hurt some of the fibers in your brain if you heard someone calling Phoebe an associate apostle, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it hurt our personal cultural definitions?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146728
11/08/12 11:19 PM
11/08/12 11:19 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
What would happen in our churches if we suddenly start calling our pastors deacons? Is that Biblical?

I'm not concerned about what titles we give each other now. I'm concerned about what God taught through the Bible.

In short: When we look at our modern pastor, let's say Ted Wilson, is he the biblical diakonos or presbyteros or episkopos? Or is it something else?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #146736
11/09/12 11:58 AM
11/09/12 11:58 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo

In short: When we look at our modern pastor, let's say Ted Wilson, is he the biblical diakonos or presbyteros or episkopos? Or is it something else?


I thought we had come to the conclusion that these terms are overlapping quite a bit in Scripture. What difference does it make then which term applies to Ted Wilson?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146746
11/09/12 04:09 PM
11/09/12 04:09 PM
asygo  Offline
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No. We agreed that "diakonos" is often translated "minister" in the Bible, but we did not agree that it was interchangeable with presbyteros or episkopos. Many today think they are, but Paul did not. If he did, after laying out the qualifications for elders in 1 Tim 3, he could have said, "Ditto for the deacons." But he made a distinction between the two.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #146906
11/13/12 05:53 AM
11/13/12 05:53 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Johann
I thought we had come to the conclusion that these terms are overlapping quite a bit in Scripture. What difference does it make then which term applies to Ted Wilson?


This brings up a good point. What difference does it make? When things in the Bible appear to be very similar, does it matter what difference we make of them?

Let's see...

The Lord's goat versus the scapegoat
Sacred fire versus common fire
Levite versus Israelite
Man versus woman?

What difference does it make?

Korah thought there should be no difference in eligibility between himself and Aaron, seeing as they were first-cousins. But did God see as man sees?

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death." Korah proved this to be true.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #146907
11/13/12 05:57 AM
11/13/12 05:57 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Following along the lines of the same thought as my previous post, how important is "ordination" to God? When God has chosen a group of individuals to be the spiritual leaders of His people, does it matter if their "cousins" join the team? What importance did God place upon His choice of spiritual leadership?

The answer is found among the sanctuary symbols. Can you spot it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147065
11/17/12 04:05 PM
11/17/12 04:05 PM
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Gregory  Offline
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Quote:
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.


This is true for most words in any language.

Check any English dictionary and you will find that most words have several meanings.


Gregory
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #147066
11/17/12 04:08 PM
11/17/12 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Deacons do things like make sure the doors are open in the morning for everyone to enter the church, turn on the lights and the sound system, line up the chairs, if necessary, on the platform, and help to collect the offering. A deaconess would do similar church duties of a more feminine nature, perhaps.


Not in the days of the apostles.


Gregory
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147068
11/17/12 04:11 PM
11/17/12 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Can a deacon ordain an elder?


In the 1st Cent., probably yes. Elders were ordained by the people of the local congregation. Deacons probably participated in that as local leadersthip.


Gregory
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147070
11/17/12 04:15 PM
11/17/12 04:15 PM
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Quote:
But it should reveal to us that the common understanding of a deacon as merely one who turns on the lights and collects offering is not biblical. We have strayed from God's plan.


Yes. and yes, we follow a plan for Deacons that is not entirely Biblical.

NOTE: In the Roman Catholic Chruch and certai other "high church" denominations, Deacons are clergy, just not priests. These denominations havae several levels of clergy and Deacons are one. As such, in the Roman Catholic Chruch they may wear a clerical collar.


Last edited by Gregory; 11/17/12 04:17 PM.

Gregory
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Gregory] #147071
11/17/12 04:20 PM
11/17/12 04:20 PM
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Quote:
diakonos is often translated minister


True. But, that does not mean that they can always be interchanged.


Gregory
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147072
11/17/12 04:38 PM
11/17/12 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: asygo
In short: When we look at our modern pastor, let's say Ted Wilson, is he the biblical diakonos or presbyteros or episkopos? Or is it something else?

Something else it seems. Pontifex Maximus ?
__________________________

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: gordonb1] #147097
11/18/12 01:42 AM
11/18/12 01:42 AM
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Gregory  Offline
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Ted Wilson holds an honorable posiiton as President. In no way does he fill the role of a pastor. The last time he and I talked was 27 years ago. My pastor is available 24/7. A pastor is one who has a continuing, on-going relationsip with parish members. President Wilson does not. To call him a pastor, deminishes the role of a pastor who has a congregation and is available 24/7.

He has a very honorable role, but not that of the pastor.


Gregory
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Gregory] #147105
11/18/12 05:22 AM
11/18/12 05:22 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gregory
In the Roman Catholic Chruch and certai other "high church" denominations, Deacons are clergy, just not priests. These denominations havae several levels of clergy and Deacons are one.

Perhaps something like the Levites of old?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Gregory] #147106
11/18/12 05:25 AM
11/18/12 05:25 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gregory
Quote:
diakonos is often translated minister


True. But, that does not mean that they can always be interchanged.

Diakonos was often translated as minister, but not always. Minister might mean diakonos, but not always. Mathematical precision is impossible with language.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: gordonb1] #147107
11/18/12 05:26 AM
11/18/12 05:26 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: asygo
In short: When we look at our modern pastor, let's say Ted Wilson, is he the biblical diakonos or presbyteros or episkopos? Or is it something else?

Something else it seems. Pontifex Maximus ?
__________________________

Perhaps. But definitely for another thread. wink


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Gregory] #147109
11/18/12 05:47 AM
11/18/12 05:47 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gregory
Ted Wilson holds an honorable posiiton as President. In no way does he fill the role of a pastor.

I was using him as an example of a pastor everyone knows. But I hear you. If I refer to a local pastor who is actually shepherding his local sheep, nobody would recognize him. It seems that pastoring is very different from evangelism and adminstration.

This might be a bit off topic, but it is well within the realm of the ordination discussion. If the GC president is not doing a pastor's work, then why do we have pastoral ordination as a requirement for the job? It is like saying, "If you want to get a job as an accountant, you need to get SCUBA certified." It seems that we have lost sight of the basic meaning of ordination: being called and authorized to perform a particular task. Why do we require a person who wants an administrative position (conference president, etc.) to be ordained to perform some other task (pastoring)?

Now we end up with local pastors who have no divine calling to be pastors, but have to endure it, and force their congregations to endure it, as they work their way up the denominational ladder. Or, you find gifted pastors who are excellent at their jobs, who are "promoted" into some other position for which they have no skill. Or just keeping it on the local level, pastors who are good shepherds are forced to be administrators as well, and pastors who are great administrators are forced to shepherd a flock.

Don't even get me started on pastors who are terrible preachers but feel it is their duty to preach every week, or awesome preachers who spend much of their time doing administration because they are "only" an associate pastor.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147118
11/18/12 02:35 PM
11/18/12 02:35 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Gregory
Ted Wilson holds an honorable posiiton as President. In no way does he fill the role of a pastor.

I was using him as an example of a pastor everyone knows. But I hear you. If I refer to a local pastor who is actually shepherding his local sheep, nobody would recognize him. It seems that pastoring is very different from evangelism and adminstration.

This might be a bit off topic, but it is well within the realm of the ordination discussion. If the GC president is not doing a pastor's work, then why do we have pastoral ordination as a requirement for the job? It is like saying, "If you want to get a job as an accountant, you need to get SCUBA certified." It seems that we have lost sight of the basic meaning of ordination: being called and authorized to perform a particular task. Why do we require a person who wants an administrative position (conference president, etc.) to be ordained to perform some other task (pastoring)?

Now we end up with local pastors who have no divine calling to be pastors, but have to endure it, and force their congregations to endure it, as they work their way up the denominational ladder. Or, you find gifted pastors who are excellent at their jobs, who are "promoted" into some other position for which they have no skill. Or just keeping it on the local level, pastors who are good shepherds are forced to be administrators as well, and pastors who are great administrators are forced to shepherd a flock.

Don't even get me started on pastors who are terrible preachers but feel it is their duty to preach every week, or awesome preachers who spend much of their time doing administration because they are "only" an associate pastor.

I resonate with your ideas here, but the ultimate goal of this thread is to determine from the Bible what "ordination" entails. So, with that in mind, can we establish biblical reasons for ordaining to a particular task? I think we may be able to. But before I post on that, let me get back to something that I feel is very important with respect to ordination that I was bringing up earlier.

How important is "ordination" to God? Can just "anyone" of man's choosing be ordained? or is it strictly a divine appointment, to be filled only on God's terms? And what is the manner of God's revelation of His terms, if the latter is true?

Let's start with that first question. The answer is found with respect to God's law, and is represented among the sanctuary symbols. I may not be eloquent in expressing this here, so please bear with me and try to look beyond my words to the truths themselves as elucidated by God's Word.

There is only one part of the Bible which God Himself chose to write. We all know it as the Ten Commandments. Not only did God choose to write it with His own finger, but He also wrote it upon stone, to represent its enduring nature. God's Law is a representation of His character of love, and is unchangeable forever.

There was another law to be found in the sanctuary, a law recorded by Moses containing the ceremonies and rituals which the people were to follow for a time. This law was spoken of as a law of "ordinances." It was placed on the outside of the ark of the covenant, in a pocket on the side of it, facing against the people. (For this reason Paul speaks of it as having been "against" us.) This law of ceremonies was abolished at The Cross.

While the ceremonial law was on the outside of the ark, presenting a temporal law, the sacred Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark, presenting an eternal law. But two other notable items were placed beside the Ten Commandment Law inside the ark. The first of these was actually prepared before the tables of stone were made--the pot of manna. It represented the enduring providence of God toward His people.

The second item to be placed inside the ark along with the Ten Commandments was Aaron's budded rod. The story is found in Numbers 17. God Himself chose a signal manner of demonstration of His choice of Aaron's tribe to be His spiritual leaders for the people. All the would-be leaders had brought their rods before God, but only Aaron's would bud, blossom, and grow almonds. God then directed that this would become as eternal as His law and as His providence. Aaron's rod was not placed on the outside of the ark, to be abolished at the cross. It was, by God's command, placed inside the ark, to be enduring.

Here's the story in Numbers 17:
Originally Posted By: The Bible
17:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
17:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and take of every one of them a rod according to the house of [their] fathers, of all their princes according to the house of their fathers twelve rods: write thou every man's name upon his rod.
17:3 And thou shalt write Aaron's name upon the rod of Levi: for one rod [shall be] for the head of the house of their fathers.
17:4 And thou shalt lay them up in the tabernacle of the congregation before the testimony, where I will meet with you.
17:5 And it shall come to pass, [that] the man's rod, whom I shall choose, shall blossom: and I will make to cease from me the murmurings of the children of Israel, whereby they murmur against you.
17:6 And Moses spake unto the children of Israel, and every one of their princes gave him a rod apiece, for each prince one, according to their fathers' houses, [even] twelve rods: and the rod of Aaron [was] among their rods.
17:7 And Moses laid up the rods before the LORD in the tabernacle of witness.
17:8 And it came to pass, that on the morrow Moses went into the tabernacle of witness; and, behold, the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi was budded, and brought forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.
17:9 And Moses brought out all the rods from before the LORD unto all the children of Israel: and they looked, and took every man his rod.
17:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Bring Aaron's rod again before the testimony, to be kept for a token against the rebels; and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from me, that they die not.
17:11 And Moses did [so]: as the LORD commanded him, so did he.
17:12 And the children of Israel spake unto Moses, saying, Behold, we die, we perish, we all perish.
17:13 Whosoever cometh any thing near unto the tabernacle of the LORD shall die: shall we be consumed with dying?


Just as God has not chosen to change any whit of the Ten Commandments, just as God has not gone back on His providence for His people, but sustains them still, so also God still holds strict adherence for His selection of spiritual leadership of the people. His ordination requirements were made clear back then, and they were again made clear in the New Testament. Those who murmured, perished. There are lessons here for us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147139
11/19/12 06:11 AM
11/19/12 06:11 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
God still holds strict adherence for His selection of spiritual leadership of the people.

While I agree that God still chooses His leaders, I don't think the tie to Aaron's rod holds. Hebrews is pretty clear that the Aaronic priesthood has been replaced by Christ, a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Perhaps the more enduring lesson of Aaron's rod is that God can still quicken the dead and cause him to bear fruit in spite of the helplessness of the raw material.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147140
11/19/12 06:33 AM
11/19/12 06:33 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
God still holds strict adherence for His selection of spiritual leadership of the people.

While I agree that God still chooses His leaders, I don't think the tie to Aaron's rod holds. Hebrews is pretty clear that the Aaronic priesthood has been replaced by Christ, a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Perhaps the more enduring lesson of Aaron's rod is that God can still quicken the dead and cause him to bear fruit in spite of the helplessness of the raw material.

Please supply the scriptures to back up your position. For example, what makes you think that Christ made a "change" to the representation of Aaron's rod?

The manna has not changed. The Ten Commandments have not changed. What makes Aaron's rod different from these, when they were placed in the same category in the ark?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147141
11/19/12 06:56 AM
11/19/12 06:56 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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At this point it would probably be good to look at Numbers 18, the chapter after the one in which we are told Aaron's rod budded.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
18:1 And the LORD said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father's house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.
18:2 And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee: but thou and thy sons with thee [shall minister] before the tabernacle of witness.
18:3 And they shall keep thy charge, and the charge of all the tabernacle: only they shall not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar, that neither they, nor ye also, die.
18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you.
18:5 And ye shall keep the charge of the sanctuary, and the charge of the altar: that there be no wrath any more upon the children of Israel.
18:6 And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you [they are] given [as] a gift for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for every thing of the altar, and within the veil; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest's office [unto you] as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
18:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.
18:9 This shall be thine of the most holy things, [reserved] from the fire: every oblation of theirs, every meat offering of theirs and every sin offering of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, [shall be] most holy for thee and for thy sons.
18:10 In the most holy [place] shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be holy unto thee.
18:11 And this [is] thine; the heave offering of their gift, with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel: I have given them unto thee, and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house shall eat of it.
18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
18:13 [And] whatsoever is first ripe in the land, which they shall bring unto the LORD, shall be thine; every one that is clean in thine house shall eat [of] it.
18:14 Everything devoted in Israel shall be thine.
18:15 Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, [whether it be] of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.
18:16 And those that are to be redeemed from a month old shalt thou redeem, according to thine estimation, for the money of five shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, which [is] twenty gerahs.
18:17 But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they [are] holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat [for] an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
18:18 And the flesh of them shall be thine, as the wave breast and as the right shoulder are thine.
18:19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it [is] a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.
18:20 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I [am] thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, [even] the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
18:22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die.
18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer [as] an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
18:25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, [even] a tenth [part] of the tithe.
18:27 And [this] your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though [it were] the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.
18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest.
18:29 Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best thereof, [even] the hallowed part thereof out of it.
18:30 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress.
18:31 And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it [is] your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation.
18:32 And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die.


That's a little long, so for those who like to skim, here are the salient points that come to my mind: you can look for them in the passage.

1) The priesthood was given to Aaron and to his sons "forever."
2) Trespass offerings and priesthood (ministering in the holy place) were for the males only.
3) Both men and women of the Levites were entitled to eat of the heave offerings.
4) The priesthood had no inheritance among the other tribes of Israel but were given the tithes of all the tribes to support them.
5) Even the priests paid a tithe of the tithes they received to God. (This goes along with our separate tithe discussion in another thread.)


Here are the two verses that probably sum up the chapter best:
Originally Posted By: The Bible
But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer [as] an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. (Numbers 18:23-24)


Tithing has not changed. We still pay tithe. If, as many like to suggest, the "priesthood" has been abolished, why do we still tithe? The tithe was for the priests and Levites.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147143
11/19/12 07:15 AM
11/19/12 07:15 AM
APL  Offline
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GC - Do you believe in the priesthood of ALL believers? ALL?

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

SDABC:
1 Peter 2:9
Chosen generation. Gr. genos eklekton, “elect kind,” “chosen people.” The “corner stone” is also said to be “chosen” (eklekton, 1 Peter 2:4; 1 Peter 2:6; cf. Revelation 17:14). The Jewish nation was once “chosen” to represent God on earth (see Vol. IV, pp. 26, 27; see on Isaiah 43:10), but because of unbelief and hardness of heart they lost their favored position (see Vol. IV, pp. 30, 31). Peter here declares that God has now assigned the privileges and responsibilities of the Jewish nation to the Christian community, not as a national group, but as a people called out of every nation to constitute one spiritual entity, one great family, throughout the world (see on Galatians 3:28). The former special status of literal Israel has been revoked (see Vol. IV, pp. 35, 36).
Royal priesthood. A quotation from the LXX of Exodus 19:6 (see comment there), where the same Greek expression (basileion hierateuma) is used. Compare on Revelation 1:6, where textual evidence attests the reading “a kingdom, priests.” As priests, Christians are to offer to God the “spiritual sacrifices” mentioned in 1 Peter 2:5; they also offer themselves as living sacrifices (see on Romans 12:1), a body of believers completely dedicated to God. They need no human priest serving as mediator between them and God, for there is but one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (see on Hebrews 7:17; Hebrews 7:24-28; cf. Hebrews 4:16).
Holy nation. As God set the Jewish nation apart to bear witness to the principles of His government (see on Deuteronomy 7:6), so He later called the Christian church to be a “holy nation” to represent Him on earth (see Vol. IV, pp. 35, 36).
Peculiar. Gr. peripoiēsis, “possession,” “[one’s] own property,” literally, “an acquisition” (see on Ephesians 1:14). Compare the related verb, peripoieō, “to acquire [for oneself],” “to preserve [for oneself].” The English word “peculiar,” which properly means “belonging to an individual,” “privately owned,” “one’s own,” is from the Latin peculiaris, “one’s own,” “belonging particularly to oneself,” “special.” The use of “peculiar” to mean “queer” or “eccentric” is colloquial, and the idea that Peter so characterizes God’s people here is not justified by the Greek word peripoiēsis (see on Deuteronomy 14:2). The expression translated “peculiar people” reads, literally, “a people into possession,” meaning “a people whom God has come into possession of,” or “a people God has acquired for Himself,” “a people that belongs to God.” See on Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6; Malachi 3:17. Christ has acquired the church and considers it to be in a special sense His own purchased possession (see on Acts 20:28; Ephesians 1:14).
Shew forth. Literally, “proclaim abroad.”
Praises. Gr. aretai, “excellences,” “perfections,” with emphasis on these qualities actively manifested in deeds. Reference here is to God’s glorious character, abounding love, and gracious provision for the salvation of sinners (see Exodus 34:6-7). God acquired the church as His own special possession in order that its members might reflect His precious traits of character in their own lives and proclaim His goodness and mercy to all men. By the winsomeness of a Christlike personality and the compassion of Christlike deeds Christians are to reveal God to the world as Jesus did (see on 2 Corinthians 2:14-16).
Darkness. The Scriptures speak of the “darkness of this world” (Ephesians 6:12) and the “works of darkness” (Romans 13:12), which are “unfruitful” (Ephesians 5:11). God’s people are not “in darkness” (1 Thessalonians 5:4), because they have been called from it (see on John 1:5).
Marvellous. Or, “wonderful,” “astonishing.”
Light. A term descriptive of truth (Matthew 4:16; Luke 11:35) and of those who abide in it (Matthew 5:14; Acts 13:47; Ephesians 5:8). Jesus Christ (see on John 1:4-5; John 1:9; John 8:12) and the Father (1 John 1:5) are the source of all light. The light of truth dispels the darkness of ignorance, and is thus a Biblical symbol of the presence and guidance of God (see on John 1:4; John 1:7).




Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: APL] #147145
11/19/12 08:12 AM
11/19/12 08:12 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
GC - Do you believe in the priesthood of ALL believers? ALL?

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;


Christians, from their earliest beginnings, were apart from the Jews. In AD 34, the Jewish nation, as a people, was rejected from being God's special people, and Christians replaced the Jews. In the new Christian era, "Israel" could include any believer, Jew or Gentile--any nationality could be included in "Israel." This was demonstrated with Philip and the Ethiopian, Peter and Cornelius, and with Jesus and the Samaritan woman. (See Galatians 3:28, and Ephesians 3:10.)

But while any "tribe" of the earth could now participate as a "Levite" (seeing as the original Levites were part of the nation of Israel which had been replaced by Christians), not every believer is automatically "upgraded" to a tithe-receiving "Levite." The tithes are still appropriated for the spiritual leadership only, and while the entire nation, just like ancient Israel was to be, may be looked upon as a spiritual leader for the world, the spiritual leadership within that nation is still special to that nation.

I guess what I see here are two angles:
  1. spiritual light and leadership to the world, and
  2. spiritual light and leadership to the nation of Israel.


Let us not forget one very important fact: being a kingdom of priests was not new to the Christian believers.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. (Exodus 19:6)


It has always been a part of the plan that the entire nation is as a kingdom of priests. But God ordained the Levites to be the spiritual leadership of that kingdom and to receive the tithes. God still sets aside the "Levites" of today for this responsibility and privilege.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147147
11/19/12 02:41 PM
11/19/12 02:41 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
But while any "tribe" of the earth could now participate as a "Levite" (seeing as the original Levites were part of the nation of Israel which had been replaced by Christians), not every believer is automatically "upgraded" to a tithe-receiving "Levite." The tithes are still appropriated for the spiritual leadership only, and while the entire nation, just like ancient Israel was to be, may be looked upon as a spiritual leader for the world, the spiritual leadership within that nation is still special to that nation.

...

It has always been a part of the plan that the entire nation is as a kingdom of priests. But God ordained the Levites to be the spiritual leadership of that kingdom and to receive the tithes. God still sets aside the "Levites" of today for this responsibility and privilege.
Are you saying that we can identify who the spiritual leaders are, because they are the ones that receive the tithe? Is the tithe then limited to only to the ordained?

Originally Posted By: EGW
I will feel it in my duty to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers are doing, and this tithe I will reserve for work in the same line as that of the ministers, hunting for souls, fishing for souls. I know that the faithful women should be paid wages proportionate to the pay received by ministers. They carry the burden of souls, and should not be treated unjustly. These sisters are giving their time to educating those newly come to the faith, and hire their own work done, and pay those who work for them. All these things must be adjusted and set in order, and justice be done to all. ... {SpM 117.3}
EGW included women as spiritual leaders, due tithe money for their support.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147148
11/19/12 03:31 PM
11/19/12 03:31 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
God still holds strict adherence for His selection of spiritual leadership of the people.

While I agree that God still chooses His leaders, I don't think the tie to Aaron's rod holds. Hebrews is pretty clear that the Aaronic priesthood has been replaced by Christ, a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Perhaps the more enduring lesson of Aaron's rod is that God can still quicken the dead and cause him to bear fruit in spite of the helplessness of the raw material.

Please supply the scriptures to back up your position. For example, what makes you think that Christ made a "change" to the representation of Aaron's rod?

The manna has not changed. The Ten Commandments have not changed. What makes Aaron's rod different from these, when they were placed in the same category in the ark?

Priesthood
Hebrews 7:11-14
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


But it wasn't the only one that was upgraded by Christ.

Manna
John 6:48-51
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


10C
Hebrews 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: APL] #147151
11/19/12 04:19 PM
11/19/12 04:19 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
But while any "tribe" of the earth could now participate as a "Levite" (seeing as the original Levites were part of the nation of Israel which had been replaced by Christians), not every believer is automatically "upgraded" to a tithe-receiving "Levite." The tithes are still appropriated for the spiritual leadership only, and while the entire nation, just like ancient Israel was to be, may be looked upon as a spiritual leader for the world, the spiritual leadership within that nation is still special to that nation.

...

It has always been a part of the plan that the entire nation is as a kingdom of priests. But God ordained the Levites to be the spiritual leadership of that kingdom and to receive the tithes. God still sets aside the "Levites" of today for this responsibility and privilege.
Are you saying that we can identify who the spiritual leaders are, because they are the ones that receive the tithe? Is the tithe then limited to only to the ordained?

Originally Posted By: EGW
I will feel it in my duty to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers are doing, and this tithe I will reserve for work in the same line as that of the ministers, hunting for souls, fishing for souls. I know that the faithful women should be paid wages proportionate to the pay received by ministers. They carry the burden of souls, and should not be treated unjustly. These sisters are giving their time to educating those newly come to the faith, and hire their own work done, and pay those who work for them. All these things must be adjusted and set in order, and justice be done to all. ... {SpM 117.3}
EGW included women as spiritual leaders, due tithe money for their support.

This is a Bible study. Feel free to bring Bible passages to support your views about whom may receive the tithe. According to the Bible, yes, it seems that the tithes went to support the Levites. However, were all Levites priests? Were all Levites men? If there were no women among the Levites, how did their tribe continue? Obviously, women were among the Levites and, as such, were supported by tithes.

A pastor today who is paid by tithe money supports his wife also from that money, does he not? This was the Levitical system. The priests received the tithes of all, which then supported their entire tribe. In fact, the Levites were also ordained to other responsibilities within the sanctuary service besides that of priesthood. There were singers, musicians, doorkeepers, treasurers, porters, etc. who were also employed in the service of the sanctuary and who received tithes as well. If Levitical women were part of those duties, in any way, even though it might have been "merely" the important work of supporting their husbands and teaching their children, certainly it would be consistent to have supported them too from the tithes, wouldn't it?

There is no direct mention of which I am aware of women involved in the service as singers or musicians, etc., but it seems only the leaders of these groups were mentioned. It is highly probable that women were a part of the service in some way, in my view. Women were known to sing in Israel on multiple other occasions, such as after having crossed the Red Sea under Miriam's direction.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147163
11/19/12 11:27 PM
11/19/12 11:27 PM
asygo  Offline
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Numbers 4:46-47
46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses, 47 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, everyone who came to do the work of service and the work of bearing burdens in the tabernacle of meeting—


I think they were all men, between 30 and 50 years old. That's a very small slice of the tribe of Levi.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147181
11/20/12 03:35 AM
11/20/12 03:35 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Numbers 4:46-47
46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses, 47 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, everyone who came to do the work of service and the work of bearing burdens in the tabernacle of meeting—


I think they were all men, between 30 and 50 years old. That's a very small slice of the tribe of Levi.


There's another text which seems to include all of the males, from a month old and upward, in the duties of the sanctuary. Obviously, an infant could do very little. But they were counted as part of the "team."

Originally Posted By: The Bible
In the number of all the males, from a month old and upward, [were] eight thousand and six hundred, keeping the charge of the sanctuary. (Numbers 3:28)


So that's a little bigger slice. wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147186
11/20/12 03:40 PM
11/20/12 03:40 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Originally Posted By: asygo
Numbers 4:46-47
46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses, 47 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, everyone who came to do the work of service and the work of bearing burdens in the tabernacle of meeting—


I think they were all men, between 30 and 50 years old. That's a very small slice of the tribe of Levi.

Could this be why Christ didn't begin His ministry until He was 30?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Daryl] #147195
11/20/12 08:35 PM
11/20/12 08:35 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
Originally Posted By: asygo
Numbers 4:46-47
46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses, 47 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, everyone who came to do the work of service and the work of bearing burdens in the tabernacle of meeting—


I think they were all men, between 30 and 50 years old. That's a very small slice of the tribe of Levi.

Could this be why Christ didn't begin His ministry until He was 30?

I think so. So if you take that and combine it with the prophesied time of His anointing, you can get a good idea of when He was to be born. So with some arithmetic, the Magi didn't have to wander around for too long. smile


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147196
11/20/12 08:41 PM
11/20/12 08:41 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: asygo
Numbers 4:46-47
46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses, 47 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, everyone who came to do the work of service and the work of bearing burdens in the tabernacle of meeting—


I think they were all men, between 30 and 50 years old. That's a very small slice of the tribe of Levi.


There's another text which seems to include all of the males, from a month old and upward, in the duties of the sanctuary. Obviously, an infant could do very little. But they were counted as part of the "team."

Originally Posted By: The Bible
In the number of all the males, from a month old and upward, [were] eight thousand and six hundred, keeping the charge of the sanctuary. (Numbers 3:28)


So that's a little bigger slice. wink

Yes, that's a bigger slice, perhaps approaching half.

Now for the interesting part: Are these toddlers, who are part of the "team" of Levites, ordained for the work of the sanctuary?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147206
11/21/12 05:57 AM
11/21/12 05:57 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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I'm not sure if "ordained" fits them in our modern sense of the word, but for them I think that they were ordained, yes. Consider Samuel, for example. He was a child, who as a child, ministered in the sanctuary. We have no record of when the Levites were to begin their training, nor, so far as I am aware, do we see any special age requirements for, say, high priest. Clearly, Samuel, or any child for that matter, could not have served as a high priest. But Samuel was a priest as a small child.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But Samuel ministered before the LORD, [being] a child, girded with a linen ephod. (1 Samuel 2:18)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147224
11/21/12 03:17 PM
11/21/12 03:17 PM
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And as you mentioned, not all Levites were priests, right?

So, tithe money can be used to support men, women, and children, but it doesn't necessarily mean they were to serve as priests. Minister yes, priests or high priests, no. Only a select few.


But this is side straying. Ordination of what we mean seems to be different and in fact, I don't see any specific word being used or reserved for what was back then. It appears to me that people are smudging the definitions and using them to urge their view. I think the word, "ordained" needs to be put aside and some principles need to be outlined. For some reason, women did not serve as priests. Is that a cultural thing of the time which changes with time or is that a rule? Or is it an absolute? Adam and Eve's relationship seems to maybe have something to do with it. But is that only within the family or does apply within the church, too?

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: kland] #147233
11/21/12 05:07 PM
11/21/12 05:07 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
Ordination of what we mean seems to be different and in fact, I don't see any specific word being used or reserved for what was back then.
It seems you are looking for a New Testament term for the Old Testament practice of "ordination," if that is what they called it, am I reading correctly?

The New Testament is where we largely derive our concept of ordination, certainly. But it seems to have existed already with the priesthood.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: (Hebrews 5:1)

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore [it is] of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. (Hebrews 8:3)


There are several Old Testament texts which speak of ordaining priests as well, but the word "ordination" is not necessarily required there, as it seems the "ordination" was by God's direct command, and it automatically included all male Levites, as the case with Samuel so well illustrates--he being yet a child and ministering in the sanctuary.

For the position of high priest, the term "consecrated" appears (at least in the KJV).

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And [he that is] the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes; (Leviticus 21:10)

But any son of Aaron appears to have been automatically a priest.
Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people: (Leviticus 21:1)


As for whether or not this was all a "cultural thing of the time" or whether it was a "rule," I think the Old Testament was clear about that. It was not a "cultural thing" which had the Divine command behind it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147281
11/22/12 02:43 AM
11/22/12 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I'm not sure if "ordained" fits them in our modern sense of the word, but for them I think that they were ordained, yes.

So here's one important point to catch: They were ordained and eligible for tithe, but not in the way we "ordain" today. Our system today does not match the old system.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Consider Samuel, for example. He was a child, who as a child, ministered in the sanctuary. We have no record of when the Levites were to begin their training, nor, so far as I am aware, do we see any special age requirements for, say, high priest. Clearly, Samuel, or any child for that matter, could not have served as a high priest. But Samuel was a priest as a small child.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But Samuel ministered before the LORD, [being] a child, girded with a linen ephod. (1 Samuel 2:18)

There's another very important point here. How did Samuel become a priest, since his father was an Ephraimite? Where do we find that Samuel was a Levite? Where do we find that Samuel was a descendant of Aaron?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147299
11/22/12 07:18 AM
11/22/12 07:18 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I'm not sure if "ordained" fits them in our modern sense of the word, but for them I think that they were ordained, yes.

So here's one important point to catch: They were ordained and eligible for tithe, but not in the way we "ordain" today. Our system today does not match the old system.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Consider Samuel, for example. He was a child, who as a child, ministered in the sanctuary. We have no record of when the Levites were to begin their training, nor, so far as I am aware, do we see any special age requirements for, say, high priest. Clearly, Samuel, or any child for that matter, could not have served as a high priest. But Samuel was a priest as a small child.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But Samuel ministered before the LORD, [being] a child, girded with a linen ephod. (1 Samuel 2:18)

There's another very important point here. How did Samuel become a priest, since his father was an Ephraimite? Where do we find that Samuel was a Levite? Where do we find that Samuel was a descendant of Aaron?


Samuel appears not to have been a descendent of Aaron. However, you may recall that after Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, were destroyed before the Lord, God opened up the priesthood to all of the tribe of Levi. Samuel was of the tribe of Levi.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
1 Chronicles
6:16 The sons of Levi; Gershom, Kohath, and Merari.
6:17 And these [be] the names of the sons of Gershom; Libni, and Shimei.
6:18 And the sons of Kohath [were], Amram, and Izhar, and Hebron, and Uzziel.
6:19 The sons of Merari; Mahli, and Mushi. And these [are] the families of the Levites according to their fathers.
6:20 Of Gershom; Libni his son, Jahath his son, Zimmah his son,
6:21 Joah his son, Iddo his son, Zerah his son, Jeaterai his son.
6:22 The sons of Kohath; Amminadab his son, Korah his son, Assir his son,
6:23 Elkanah his son, and Ebiasaph his son, and Assir his son,
6:24 Tahath his son, Uriel his son, Uzziah his son, and Shaul his son.
6:25 And the sons of Elkanah; Amasai, and Ahimoth.
6:26 [As for] Elkanah: the sons of Elkanah; Zophai his son, and Nahath his son,
6:27 Eliab his son, Jeroham his son, Elkanah his son.
6:28 And the sons of Samuel; the firstborn Vashni, and Abiah.
6:29 The sons of Merari; Mahli, Libni his son, Shimei his son, Uzza his son,
6:30 Shimea his son, Haggiah his son, Asaiah his son.
6:31 And these [are they] whom David set over the service of song in the house of the LORD, after that the ark had rest.
6:32 And they ministered before the dwelling place of the tabernacle of the congregation with singing, until Solomon had built the house of the LORD in Jerusalem: and [then] they waited on their office according to their order.
6:33 And these [are] they that waited with their children. Of the sons of the Kohathites: Heman a singer, the son of Joel, the son of Shemuel,
6:34 The son of Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Eliel, the son of Toah,
6:35 The son of Zuph, the son of Elkanah, the son of Mahath, the son of Amasai,
6:36 The son of Elkanah, the son of Joel, the son of Azariah, the son of Zephaniah,
6:37 The son of Tahath, the son of Assir, the son of Ebiasaph, the son of Korah,
6:38 The son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, the son of Israel.


As you can see, the lineage is given first forwards, then in reverse, with two spellings for "Samuel," apparently. There were several "Elkanah's" in that line...all from Kohath, of Levi.

This brings up an important point that I just have not had time to answer you on yet relating to a previous post of yours. I'll try to get back to that soon.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147339
11/23/12 05:41 AM
11/23/12 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Let's start with all of the Bible texts (using the KJV standard) on the topic of ordination that relate to people and use some form of the word "ordain" in the English translation. (There are some uses of "ordain" that relate to objects or actions outside the scope of this topic which we will ignore.)

Principal Texts on Ordination
1 Chronicles 9:22All these [which were] chosen to be porters in the gates [were] two hundred and twelve. These were reckoned by their genealogy in their villages, whom David and Samuel the seer did ordain in their set office.
2 Chronicles 11:14-15For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD: And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
Jeremiah 1:4-5Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Mark 3:14-15And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
John 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Acts 1:21-26Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], show whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Acts 10:40-42Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.
Acts 14:23And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
Acts 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
1 Corinthians 7:17-20But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
1 Timothy 2:7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Titus 1:5-6For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Hebrews 5:1-4For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron.
Hebrews 8:1-3Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore [it is] of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.






If I could just add a couple more,

1 Kings 13:33-34; 33 After this event Jeroboam did not turn from his evil way, but again he made priests from every class of people for the high places; whoever wished, he consecrated him, and he became one of the priests of the high places. 34 And this thing was the sin of the house of Jeroboam, so as to exterminate and destroy it from the face of the earth." (bold emphasis mine) (NKJV)

God actually says He will exterminate them from the earth. Quite a terrible judgment.

Hebrews 7:5 says; "And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;"

Hebrews specifies "sons of Levi".

It looks as if I shouldn't have quoted your post, Green Cochoa. Sorry.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 11/23/12 04:09 PM. Reason: Enabled HTML in post
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147346
11/23/12 04:26 PM
11/23/12 04:26 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Samuel appears not to have been a descendent of Aaron. However, you may recall that after Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, were destroyed before the Lord, God opened up the priesthood to all of the tribe of Levi.

No, I don't recall that. What I remember is that Aaron's two other sons, Eleazar and Ithamar, took over. I don't remember the priesthood being opened up to the rest Levi. Can you give the reference? Thanks.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #147347
11/23/12 04:32 PM
11/23/12 04:32 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Hebrews 7:5 says; "And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;"

Hebrews specifies "sons of Levi".

Verse 11 limits it further to Aaron. The Levitical priesthood was "of Levi" because Aaron was a Levite.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147348
11/23/12 04:52 PM
11/23/12 04:52 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Samuel appears not to have been a descendent of Aaron. However, you may recall that after Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, were destroyed before the Lord, God opened up the priesthood to all of the tribe of Levi.

No, I don't recall that. What I remember is that Aaron's two other sons, Eleazar and Ithamar, took over. I don't remember the priesthood being opened up to the rest Levi. Can you give the reference? Thanks.


Here is the reference:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Numbers
3:2 And these [are] the names of the sons of Aaron; Nadab the firstborn, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
3:3 These [are] the names of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he consecrated to minister in the priest's office.
3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest's office in the sight of Aaron their father.
3:5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
3:6 Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may minister unto him.
3:7 And they shall keep his charge, and the charge of the whole congregation before the tabernacle of the congregation, to do the service of the tabernacle.
3:8 And they shall keep all the instruments of the tabernacle of the congregation, and the charge of the children of Israel, to do the service of the tabernacle.
3:9 And thou shalt give the Levites unto Aaron and to his sons: they [are] wholly given unto him out of the children of Israel.


This appears to be the reason why, ever afterward, the Word of God speaks of "Levites" and we don't see the term "Aaronites." From this point on it seems any member of the tribe of Levi was ordained to minister in the sanctuary.

We can guess at the reasons God did this, but since the Bible itself says that neither Nadab nor Abihu had any children when they died, and since Nadab was the eldest of Aaron's sons, it may well have been that the younger two sons were not married or had no sons either to help them minister in the sanctuary. It seems they needed more help.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147353
11/23/12 07:09 PM
11/23/12 07:09 PM
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Well Green, you have come up with a new teaching which I have never heard, and which I do not think fits the Biblical record. We do find "The sons of Arron" in later history.

1 Chronicles 23:27-28 For by the last words of David the Levites were numbered from twenty years old and above: 28 Because their office was to wait on the sons of Aaron for the service of the house of the LORD, in the courts, and in the chambers, and in the purifying of all holy things, and the work of the service of the house of God;.

Since the Temple furniture would no longer need to be carried about, the Levites would not be needed for that type of service, but they would henceforth minister in the permanent sanctuary, with the priests, but in subordinate positions. See also 1 Chronicles 25:1-7 for some of the rolls of the Levites in music. And 1 Chronicles 26:12, 20, 29-31.

1 Chronicles 25:1-7
1 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:
2 Of the sons of Asaph; Zaccur, and Joseph, and Nethaniah, and Asarelah, the sons of Asaph under the hands of Asaph, which prophesied according to the order of the king.
3 Of Jeduthun: the sons of Jeduthun; Gedaliah, and Zeri, and Jeshaiah, Hashabiah, and Mattithiah, six, under the hands of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied with a harp, to give thanks and to praise the LORD.
4 Of Heman: the sons of Heman; Bukkiah, Mattaniah, Uzziel, Shebuel, and Jerimoth, Hananiah, Hanani, Eliathah, Giddalti, and Romamtiezer, Joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir, and Mahazioth:
5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn. And God gave to Heman fourteen sons and three daughters.
6 All these were under the hands of their father for song in the house of the LORD, with cymbals, psalteries, and harps, for the service of the house of God, according to the king's order to Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman.
7 So the number of them, with their brethren that were instructed in the songs of the LORD, even all that were cunning, was two hundred fourscore and eight.

1 Chronicles 26:20
20 And of the Levites, Ahijah was over the treasures of the house of God, and over the treasures of the dedicated things.

1 Chronicles 26:29-31
29 Of the Izharites, Chenaniah and his sons were for the outward business over Israel, for officers and judges.
30 And of the Hebronites, Hashabiah and his brethren, men of valour, a thousand and seven hundred, were officers among them of Israel on this side Jordan westward in all the business of the LORD, and in the service of the king.
31 Among the Hebronites was Jerijah the chief, even among the Hebronites, according to the generations of his fathers. In the fortieth year of the reign of David they were sought for, and there were found among them mighty men of valour at Jazer of Gilead.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147354
11/23/12 07:42 PM
11/23/12 07:42 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: The Bible
Numbers
3:2 And these [are] the names of the sons of Aaron; Nadab the firstborn, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
3:3 These [are] the names of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he consecrated to minister in the priest's office.
3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest's office in the sight of Aaron their father.
3:5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
3:6 Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may minister unto him.
3:7 And they shall keep his charge, and the charge of the whole congregation before the tabernacle of the congregation, to do the service of the tabernacle.
3:8 And they shall keep all the instruments of the tabernacle of the congregation, and the charge of the children of Israel, to do the service of the tabernacle.
3:9 And thou shalt give the Levites unto Aaron and to his sons: they [are] wholly given unto him out of the children of Israel.


This appears to be the reason why, ever afterward, the Word of God speaks of "Levites" and we don't see the term "Aaronites." From this point on it seems any member of the tribe of Levi was ordained to minister in the sanctuary.

We can guess at the reasons God did this, but since the Bible itself says that neither Nadab nor Abihu had any children when they died, and since Nadab was the eldest of Aaron's sons, it may well have been that the younger two sons were not married or had no sons either to help them minister in the sanctuary. It seems they needed more help.

They were ministers, but I don't think they were all ordained priests.

More from Numbers 3:
Quote:
17 And these were the sons of Levi by their names; Gershon, and Kohath, and Merari.
23 The families of the Gershonites shall pitch behind the tabernacle westward.
25 And the charge of the sons of Gershon in the tabernacle of the congregation shall be the tabernacle, and the tent, the covering thereof, and the hanging for the door of the tabernacle of the congregation,
26 And the hangings of the court, and the curtain for the door of the court, which is by the tabernacle, and by the altar round about, and the cords of it for all the service thereof.
29 The families of the sons of Kohath shall pitch on the side of the tabernacle southward.
31 And their [Kohathites] charge shall be the ark, and the table, and the candlestick, and the altars, and the vessels of the sanctuary wherewith they minister, and the hanging, and all the service thereof.
32 And Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest shall be chief over the chief of the Levites, and have the oversight of them that keep the charge of the sanctuary.
35 And the chief of the house of the father of the families of Merari was Zuriel the son of Abihail: these shall pitch on the side of the tabernacle northward.
36 And under the custody and charge of the sons of Merari shall be the boards of the tabernacle, and the bars thereof, and the pillars thereof, and the sockets thereof, and all the vessels thereof, and all that serveth thereto,
37 And the pillars of the court round about, and their sockets, and their pins, and their cords.
38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

We find that the Levites - Gershon, Kohath, Merari - ministered in the sanctuary, but they were distinct from the sons of Aaron. They camped on their own sides of the tabernacle, apart from the sons of Aaron. But they ministered in the other work of the sanctuary.

Later in the Bible we find that God still reserved the priesthood to Aaron and his sons, distinct from the Levites.

Quote:
Numbers 10:8
And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.

Numbers 18:1
And the LORD said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father's house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.

Joshua 21:19
All the cities of the children of Aaron, the priests, were thirteen cities with their suburbs.

2 Chronicles 35:14
And afterward they made ready for themselves, and for the priests: because the priests the sons of Aaron were busied in offering of burnt offerings and the fat until night; therefore the Levites prepared for themselves, and for the priests the sons of Aaron.

In David's time, there was still a distinction between the sons of Aaron and the other Levites. They still knew who came from Eleazar and Ithamar.

From 1 Chronicles 24:
Quote:
24 Now these are the divisions of the sons of Aaron. The sons of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
2 But Nadab and Abihu died before their father, and had no children: therefore Eleazar and Ithamar executed the priest's office.
3 And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service.
4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar, and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers.
5 Thus were they divided by lot, one sort with another; for the governors of the sanctuary, and governors of the house of God, were of the sons of Eleazar, and of the sons of Ithamar.
19 These were the orderings of them in their service to come into the house of the Lord, according to their manner, under Aaron their father, as the Lord God of Israel had commanded him.

Last edited by asygo; 11/24/12 01:05 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147355
11/23/12 07:44 PM
11/23/12 07:44 PM
asygo  Offline
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It looks like APL found other verses while I was putting mine together.

Which begs the question: What's up with Samuel?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147357
11/23/12 08:34 PM
11/23/12 08:34 PM
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Psalms 99:6 Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call on his name; they called on the LORD, and he answered them.

Moses was not a son of Aaron either! But was considered a priest. Moses was chosen of God, and spoke with God, "face to face". Samuel, it appears by the circumstances of his birth, and "adoption" by Eli, became a priest also. Samuel in the same class as Moses by Jeremiah, see Jeremiah 15:1.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: APL] #147359
11/23/12 09:18 PM
11/23/12 09:18 PM
asygo  Offline
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Moses was not a priest. He was the leader, but not a priest.

Perhaps that example, from the best model of a theocracy that we have, should give us something to think about. Priesthood and leadership don't necessarily go together. Even the law, which required the priests come from Aaron and the kings come from Judah, separated them. Why do we require them together for our leaders today?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147362
11/23/12 10:49 PM
11/23/12 10:49 PM
Johann  Offline
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It appears to me that the problems is one we create. Moses and Aaron were brothers, same mother, same father, right? That made both of them Levites. God chose Aaron to be the father of the priests, and not Moses. Theirs was a peculiar priesthood service, which made them butchers as well. They were to slaughter all of the animals, and yet this was a special sacrificial service.

Roman Catholic priests are taught that they are performing the same sacrificial service in the Mass. What does this show us?

Are our pastors/evangelists in our church performing a similar service in our preaching? Are we to be compared to the services of the Roman Catholic priest, the Jewish priest - or the work of a prophet?

Last edited by Johann; 11/23/12 10:52 PM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147367
11/24/12 12:00 AM
11/24/12 12:00 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Thank you all for your participation. I'm enjoying this and learning new things...this is great.

APL and Arnold, you've found some interesting things. It does appear that the primary priesthood was limited to the sons of Aaron, even after Nadab and Abihu died. I hadn't seen it that way before. At least, there does appear to be some evidence to both sides of that question. The rest of the tribe of Levi were given some responsibilities, and it is unclear exactly where the line was drawn with that--but very interesting how they were each positioned around the sanctuary. You have brought out some fascinating details that I had never noticed.

Regarding Samuel, it is clear from other accounts in the Bible that anyone not qualified to be a priest would not have been permitted to serve as one. The Bible does not indicate this, but perhaps Samuel's mother was descended from Aaron. The Bible only gives Elkhanah's lineage, and omits that of Hannah. This is normal. Matriarchal lineages are not usually given. Even in Jesus' case, when Mary's lineage is given it is attributed instead to Joseph, being the male in the patriarchal system. (See the genealogies in Matthew and Luke.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: APL] #147369
11/24/12 12:19 AM
11/24/12 12:19 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Psalms 99:6 Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call on his name; they called on the LORD, and he answered them.

Moses was not a son of Aaron either! But was considered a priest. Moses was chosen of God, and spoke with God, "face to face". Samuel, it appears by the circumstances of his birth, and "adoption" by Eli, became a priest also. Samuel in the same class as Moses by Jeremiah, see Jeremiah 15:1.

It seems Arnold is correct in that Moses was not a priest; however, Moses did have the God-ordained task of consecrating Aaron and his sons to the priesthood (see e.g. Exodus 40).

That verse in the Psalms might read better with adjustments to the punctuation. Probably the translator(s) didn't pay attention to correlation with prior passages that would have made the roles distinct. A simple comma added would change the meaning for English readers.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147371
11/24/12 12:23 AM
11/24/12 12:23 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Theirs was a peculiar priesthood service, which made them butchers as well. They were to slaughter all of the animals, and yet this was a special sacrificial service.

I don't believe this part is supported in the Bible.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147377
11/24/12 12:59 AM
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asygo  Offline
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IIRC, both sinner and priest participated intimately in the slaughter and butchering of the animals. Can't look it up now.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147378
11/24/12 01:04 AM
11/24/12 01:04 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Are our pastors/evangelists in our church performing a similar service in our preaching? Are we to be compared to the services of the Roman Catholic priest, the Jewish priest - or the work of a prophet?

The services are certainly not identical, but there are similarities. The tribe of Levi was tasked with teaching the people about God and His ways. That would surely fit the role of pastor/evangelist.

But strictly speaking, the role of God's priest today can only be filled by Jesus, our High Priest. And He's not even from Levi! So we cannot make too much of the link between the OT system and today.

However, I believe there is a principle that applied then and still applies now, and it cuts across all roles: God chooses His servants. We need to make sure we are on the same page as God.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147380
11/24/12 01:18 AM
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asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Regarding Samuel, it is clear from other accounts in the Bible that anyone not qualified to be a priest would not have been permitted to serve as one.

First, here's a quote that says Samuel was a priest:

Since the days of Joshua the government had never been conducted with so great wisdom and success as under Samuel's administration. Divinely invested with the threefold office of judge, prophet, and priest, he had labored with untiring and disinterested zeal for the welfare of his people, and the nation had prospered under his wise control. {PP 603.4}

But maybe he was not a normal priest.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The Bible does not indicate this, but perhaps Samuel's mother was descended from Aaron.

Even then, his tribe comes through his father. For example, though Mary and Elizabeth were cousins, Jesus was from Judah and John was from Levi.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147381
11/24/12 01:22 AM
11/24/12 01:22 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
IIRC, both sinner and priest participated intimately in the slaughter and butchering of the animals. Can't look it up now.

It was the sinner who did the killing, not the priest. The priest would then take the blood and make an atonement by it, sprinkling it around the altar or before the veil.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Leviticus
1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, [even] of the herd, and of the flock.
1:3 If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that [is by] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

4:22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done [somewhat] through ignorance [against] any of the commandments of the LORD his God [concerning things] which should not be done, and is guilty;
4:23 Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
4:24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it [is] a sin offering.
4:25 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.
4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
4:29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
4:30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.
4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn [it] upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.


But the priest would sometimes do the killing, too...when it was his own sin.
Originally Posted By: The Bible
4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
4:4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.
4:5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the veil of the sanctuary.
4:7 And the priest shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.


If the sin were a more general one, committed by the congregation, then it appears it was the elders among them who killed the animal.
Originally Posted By: The Bible
4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which should not be done, and are guilty;
4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.
4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD.
4:16 And the priest that is anointed shall bring of the bullock's blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:
4:17 And the priest shall dip his finger [in some] of the blood, and sprinkle [it] seven times before the LORD, [even] before the veil.

As before, it was the priest's duty to sprinkle the blood from the animal. This was always the priest's role to make an atonement for the sin. By the sinner killing the animal, the gravity of his or her sin would be more strongly represented and it would help them, hopefully, to avoid doing the same thing again. It is not an easy thing to kill an animal, especially not one of your own favorites.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147382
11/24/12 01:24 AM
11/24/12 01:24 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
It seems Arnold is correct in that Moses was not a priest; however, Moses did have the God-ordained task of consecrating Aaron and his sons to the priesthood (see e.g. Exodus 40).

Here's an interesting fact: Aaron was the God-appointed high priest, the head of all the priests, but his kid brother Moses was the God-appointed leader above him. Moses was never ordained as a priest.

Why does the conference think that in order to be a leader, one must first be ordained a pastor? Is anyone else thinking that our ways are not quite right?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147383
11/24/12 01:32 AM
11/24/12 01:32 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: asygo
IIRC, both sinner and priest participated intimately in the slaughter and butchering of the animals. Can't look it up now.

It was the sinner who did the killing, not the priest. The priest would then take the blood and make an atonement by it, sprinkling it around the altar or before the veil.

Then there was the removal of fat and organs, etc. I always thought the priest helped with that.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147384
11/24/12 01:33 AM
11/24/12 01:33 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Regarding Samuel, it is clear from other accounts in the Bible that anyone not qualified to be a priest would not have been permitted to serve as one.

First, here's a quote that says Samuel was a priest:

...
Please stick to the Bible for this thread. But the Bible tells us enough to know what Samuel's role was. He was a judge, a prophet, and a priest. Note the following:
Originally Posted By: The Bible
1 Samuel 2:18 But Samuel ministered before the LORD, [being] a child, girded with a linen ephod.
...
1 Samuel 2:26 And the child Samuel grew on, and was in favour both with the LORD, and also with men.
1 Samuel 2:27 And there came a man of God unto Eli, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Did I plainly appear unto the house of thy father, when they were in Egypt in Pharaoh's house?
1 Samuel 2:28 And did I choose him out of all the tribes of Israel [to be] my priest, to offer upon mine altar, to burn incense, to wear an ephod before me? and did I give unto the house of thy father all the offerings made by fire of the children of Israel?
...
1 Samuel 3:19 And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.
1 Samuel 3:20 And all Israel from Dan even to Beersheba knew that Samuel [was] established [to be] a prophet of the LORD.
...
1 Samuel 7:15 And Samuel judged Israel all the days of his life.


Originally Posted By: asygo
But maybe he was not a normal priest.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The Bible does not indicate this, but perhaps Samuel's mother was descended from Aaron.

Even then, his tribe comes through his father. For example, though Mary and Elizabeth were cousins, Jesus was from Judah and John was from Levi.

Jesus was also descended from Levi. wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147385
11/24/12 01:33 AM
11/24/12 01:33 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The Bible does not indicate this, but perhaps Samuel's mother was descended from Aaron.

Even then, his tribe comes through his father. For example, though Mary and Elizabeth were cousins, Jesus was from Judah and John was from Levi.


Luke 1:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

Does this indicate that both of them were the children of Aaron? Abia is listed as a priest in 1 Chron 24:10 and Neh. 12:4.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147386
11/24/12 01:38 AM
11/24/12 01:38 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Good point, Johann. That's pretty clear regarding Jesus' lineage then. I had never connected those dots. Very interesting! Now I'm going to see in my Bible which of the genealogies is "wrong." smile

UPDATE: I just checked, and it's not as simple as it had appeared. It's still a mystery which genealogy is for Mary and which is for Joseph.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 11/24/12 01:46 AM. Reason: Update

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147387
11/24/12 01:42 AM
11/24/12 01:42 AM
Johann  Offline
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Among the Levites only the sons of Aaron were priests.

2 Chronicles 29:24
And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded that the burnt offering and the sin offering should be made for all Israel.

Did the priest make a verbal pastoral or evangelistic sermon when he killed the animal?

Who did the preaching in Israel?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147389
11/24/12 01:53 AM
11/24/12 01:53 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Among the Levites only the sons of Aaron were priests.

2 Chronicles 29:24
And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded that the burnt offering and the sin offering should be made for all Israel.

Did the priest make a verbal pastoral or evangelistic sermon when he killed the animal?

Who did the preaching in Israel?


Yes, the priests were also charged with teaching the people spiritually. Here's a verse where this is specifically noted.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
2 Chronicles
15:1 And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded:
15:2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD [is] with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.
15:3 Now for a long season Israel [hath been] without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.
15:4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147391
11/24/12 02:12 AM
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Johann  Offline
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Good point. But the priest was to take care of the sacrifices, something that was done away with at the cross.

Whose teachings and sermons are mostly recorded in the Bible? What do the books of the prophets contain?

Some of them were priests, Ezek. 1:3, but we know them primarily as prophets and not as priests. They are also referred to in the New Testament as prophets, and I have never seen them mentioned as the books of the priests.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147393
11/24/12 02:27 AM
11/24/12 02:27 AM
Johann  Offline
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Language is a strange phenomena, because many of them change continually. When I started in the ministry it was unthinkable to call an Adventist pastor a priest - or the same word that is used for the priests in the Old Testament. Today it has become common in several languages, however, I believe that term is never used for an Adventist pastor in English nor in German.

At least that is an indication we do not consider an Adventist pastor as a priest in the old sacrificial system nor in the Roman Catholic system.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147443
11/24/12 04:30 PM
11/24/12 04:30 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Please stick to the Bible for this thread.

Oops, forgot about that rule. smile

Is there a verse that specifically says Samuel was a priest? There are verses that provide circumstantial evidence, but I'm looking for a diect statement.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147444
11/24/12 04:35 PM
11/24/12 04:35 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Good point, Johann. That's pretty clear regarding Jesus' lineage then. I had never connected those dots. Very interesting! Now I'm going to see in my Bible which of the genealogies is "wrong." smile

UPDATE: I just checked, and it's not as simple as it had appeared. It's still a mystery which genealogy is for Mary and which is for Joseph.

I think they both come from Judah.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147445
11/24/12 04:38 PM
11/24/12 04:38 PM
asygo  Offline
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"Pastor" comes from the word for shpeherd. That's what a real pastor is. Preachers and evangelists are something else. We are wrong for amalgamating them into one role.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147527
11/26/12 10:55 PM
11/26/12 10:55 PM
asygo  Offline
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According to the Bible (2 Chronicles 30:22, 2 Chronicles 35:3, Nehemiah 8:9), the Levites taught the people as well. Perhaps pastors, and all other Gospel workers today, are Levites. Which wouldn't be so strange since Jesus is our one and only High Priest.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147529
11/26/12 11:04 PM
11/26/12 11:04 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Good point, Johann. That's pretty clear regarding Jesus' lineage then. I had never connected those dots. Very interesting! Now I'm going to see in my Bible which of the genealogies is "wrong." smile

UPDATE: I just checked, and it's not as simple as it had appeared. It's still a mystery which genealogy is for Mary and which is for Joseph.

I think they both come from Judah.


Thorough intermarriage between tribes Elizabeth and Mary could be relatives.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147541
11/27/12 01:27 AM
11/27/12 01:27 AM
asygo  Offline
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Yes. They must be related through somebody's mother.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147551
11/27/12 06:33 AM
11/27/12 06:33 AM
Johann  Offline
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Today a person is a Jew, according to the laws of Israel, if his mother is a Jew.

Quote:
author Wednesday May 16, 2012 01:52author by Saed Bannoura - 1 of International Middle East Media Center Editorial Group Report post

In Haifa District Court on Tuesday the judge ruled that whether a person is an Israeli citizen is determined by whether that person is of Jewish descent, i.e. born to a Jewish mother following halachic law, and not by their place of birth or whether they are by religion Jewish or not.
http://www.imemc.org/article/63500

Is this Scriptural


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147615
11/28/12 02:39 AM
11/28/12 02:39 AM
asygo  Offline
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If it is, I don't know how. AFAIK, the father determines lineage.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147622
11/28/12 04:02 AM
11/28/12 04:02 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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The portion quoted by Johann is sufficiently incomplete as to render any conclusion about its accuracy impossible. I, for one, do not know the "halachic law." Perhaps it states that a Jewish father must be married to a Jewish woman for her children to be Jews. Consider the case with Ezra.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147626
11/28/12 09:39 AM
11/28/12 09:39 AM
Johann  Offline
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Some years back I was told at a German embassy that today there are two countries in the world where it is primarily the citizenship of the mother which determines the citizenship of the child: Germany and Israel. I was told that the reason for this rule is that it was often impossible to prove who is the father -- before DNA. The news item I quoted indicates this is in accordance with halachic Jewish law. That is why I asked if anyone had discovered any indication this is based on something in the Bible, since the discussion was about the lineage in the tribes of Israel.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #147635
11/28/12 03:26 PM
11/28/12 03:26 PM
asygo  Offline
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Trying to get this back to ordination...

But to tie up this loose end, I believe that all the genealogies in the Bible list the names of the fathers/sons. Rarely is the mother even mentioned. Hence, Jesus was the son of David, and the priests were the sons of Aaron.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147938
12/04/12 11:31 PM
12/04/12 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Trying to get this back to ordination...

But to tie up this loose end, I believe that all the genealogies in the Bible list the names of the fathers/sons. Rarely is the mother even mentioned. Hence, Jesus was the son of David, and the priests were the sons of Aaron.

This also even applied to Christ.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #161993
02/18/14 02:13 PM
02/18/14 02:13 PM
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To go along with the verse 2 Chronicles 11:14-15, 1 Kings 13:33-34 describes Jeroboam's sin and that it would be destroyed from off the earth.

I know it doesn't mention women directly, but Jeroboam did consecrate whomever he wanted. This is why the sons of Levi (Heb. 7:5) were run off away from the sanctuary. I'm sure some women would have been included as many pagan religions had female priests. Of course, there were men as well who were not fit to serve in the Temple of God.

Last edited by Alchemy; 02/18/14 02:13 PM.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #162027
02/18/14 06:57 PM
02/18/14 06:57 PM
asygo  Offline
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That's an assumption based on one paradigm.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #162342
02/25/14 08:02 PM
02/25/14 08:02 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Today a person is a Jew, according to the laws of Israel, if his mother is a Jew.

Quote:
author Wednesday May 16, 2012 01:52author by Saed Bannoura - 1 of International Middle East Media Center Editorial Group Report post

In Haifa District Court on Tuesday the judge ruled that whether a person is an Israeli citizen is determined by whether that person is of Jewish descent, i.e. born to a Jewish mother following halachic law, and not by their place of birth or whether they are by religion Jewish or not.
http://www.imemc.org/article/63500

Is this Scriptural


Consider John Mark (the author of the Gospel by Mark)
"John, whose surname was Mark" Acts 12:12; 12:25; 15:37,

John Mark's mother, Mary, was related to Barnabas, a Levite, and the apostle that travelled with Paul on his first missionary journeys. Col. 4:10, Acts 4:36

Mary had a large home in Jerusalem, which become a central meeting place for the early Christian believers. (Acts 12:12-13)

But who is the father? All we hear about is his mother, his mother's house, his "uncle" who parted from Paul in order to take John Mark with him on missionary trips.

Apparently Mary was a widow, and John Mark's father was a Gentile. John is a Jewish name, Mark or Marcus, is a Roman name.

It's also been noted that "Mark seems to have targeted Roman believers, particularly Gentiles. When employing Aramaic terms, Mark translated them for his readers (3:17; 5:41; 7:11, 34; 10:46; 14:36; 15:22, 34). On the other hand, in some places he used Latin expressions instead of their Greek equivalents (5:9; 6:27; 12:15, 42; 15:16, 39). He also reckoned time according to the Roman system (6:48; 13:35) and carefully explained Jewish customs (7:3, 4; 14:12; 15:42)."


So was John Mark considered a Jew or a Gentile?

It appears from the Biblical stories that he was fully accepted in the Jewish circles.




Another interesting comparison is Timothy and Titus.

Timothy had a Jewish mother and a Greek Father.
Acts 16:1 Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:

Paul immediately has him circumcised! Acts 16:3 And this allows him full acceptance in Jewish circles.


But Titus has no Jewish mother -- his parents are both Gentiles

Gal. 2:3 But Titus, who was a Greek, was not compelled to be circumcised


So there is some truth to the mother being Jewish meaning her children were given full Jewish recognition as long as they were circumcised.
Whereas a Gentile-- even when a proselyte and adhering to the rituals, wasn't given full Jewish recognition.


.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #162343
02/25/14 08:17 PM
02/25/14 08:17 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Language is a strange phenomena, because many of them change continually. When I started in the ministry it was unthinkable to call an Adventist pastor a priest - or the same word that is used for the priests in the Old Testament. Today it has become common in several languages, however, I believe that term is never used for an Adventist pastor in English nor in German.

At least that is an indication we do not consider an Adventist pastor as a priest in the old sacrificial system nor in the Roman Catholic system.


This is another issue that I find really confusing in this controversial subject.
Why are anti WO always referring to the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood of Israel?

It is the Catholic church that has continued the earthly sanctuary system and rejected the heavenly sanctuary message.

They continued the earthly priest being the one people go to when they want forgiveness. They continued the "daily sacrifice" through the "recreation" of Christ being offered in a wafer (daily mass).

An Adventist pastor is NEVER to be called "priest" or "father" or "His holiness" . That rejection of those titles was standard Adventist teaching years ago.

Yet, now all these arguments want to lift the Adventist pastor up as being priests of the church? Why?

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162344
02/25/14 09:18 PM
02/25/14 09:18 PM
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Everything has been done to prepare the way for us all to accept the doctrines of the Vatican.

Just see how many today make their acceptance of the papal priesthood in Adventism as a mark of their private sanctification.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162346
02/25/14 09:28 PM
02/25/14 09:28 PM
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Luke is the only gentile Gospel writer and he also wrote Acts as a close follower of Paul.

When looking for male only disciples of Jesus Christ it is easiest when you read the Jewish Gospel writers.

Luke is the one who refers much more to the female disciples of Jesus Christ and female church leaders. Is Luke (including Acts) less inspired than other parts of the Bible? Why was he chosen to write such a substantial part of the New Testament?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: dedication] #162360
02/26/14 02:39 AM
02/26/14 02:39 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Johann
Language is a strange phenomena, because many of them change continually. When I started in the ministry it was unthinkable to call an Adventist pastor a priest - or the same word that is used for the priests in the Old Testament. Today it has become common in several languages, however, I believe that term is never used for an Adventist pastor in English nor in German.

At least that is an indication we do not consider an Adventist pastor as a priest in the old sacrificial system nor in the Roman Catholic system.


This is another issue that I find really confusing in this controversial subject.
Why are anti WO always referring to the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood of Israel?

It is the Catholic church that has continued the earthly sanctuary system and rejected the heavenly sanctuary message.

They continued the earthly priest being the one people go to when they want forgiveness. They continued the "daily sacrifice" through the "recreation" of Christ being offered in a wafer (daily mass).

An Adventist pastor is NEVER to be called "priest" or "father" or "His holiness" . That rejection of those titles was standard Adventist teaching years ago.

Yet, now all these arguments want to lift the Adventist pastor up as being priests of the church? Why?


I may be ignorant, dedication, or out of the loop with what is happening back in the homeland, but I'm not aware of anyone promoting a modern priesthood within our church. Certainly, I do not. The only "priesthood" one can legitimately point to in our modern society is that of the home, where the husband and father is to be priest. Mrs. White affirms this.

The reason we look at the Old Testament system of priesthood is to better understand God's ways and apply those same principles to our worship today. God only allowed a certain gender, of a certain family, of a certain tribe, of a certain nation to be His chosen leaders. The priests of old not only performed acts of worship in the sanctuary, but also were teachers and leaders of the people. In many respects, the pastors of the Waldenses modeled this system quite well. They were the authority figures who upheld spiritual standards in addition to other matters of concern to their societies.

God has no problem selecting a certain one or group to accomplish His purposes--or even in choosing their family to be His special instruments forever. Look at the line of David for an example of this--established to be "king" in Israel perpetually (ultimately fulfilled in Christ).

Did Jesus' appearance on earth suddenly change all this? Did God, after rejecting the Jews, suddenly accept any group, any tribe, any gender? If so, why were all of the disciples whom Jesus ordained male?

Anyone who follows Christ is one of His disciples, naturally. Johann points out correctly that Jesus had disciples who were women. But this fact makes the lack of ordination of any woman by Jesus the more striking and singular. He could have ordained Mary, or Martha, or the wife of any of His disciples. Why didn't He?

Jesus certainly knows the future, too. He knew as well back then as we know now that in this modern liberalized society, women would aspire to leadership in the church. Nor did Jesus particularly adhere to the traditions of the Jews in His day. He could easily have established a more egalitarian culture in the nascent Christian church. It would have been a simple thing for Him to ordain a woman--as simple as it was to ordain a traitor who did not deserve to be counted among His disciples. So why didn't He ordain a woman?

Apparently, Jesus did not wish to change this order of things. There is no instruction anywhere in the Bible to ordain a woman, nor even to place a woman in a position of authority over God's people. God does not leave this matter with us to decide. He retains the authority to establish whomsoever He will in leadership of His people.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162370
02/26/14 05:03 AM
02/26/14 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted By: green
God has no problem selecting a certain one or group to accomplish His purposes--or even in choosing their family to be His special instruments forever. Look at the line of David for an example of this--established to be "king" in Israel perpetually (ultimately fulfilled in Christ).
God had no problem selecting a group? What? God selected ALL the people. Exodus 19:5-6 "Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure to me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." The whole of the people were to be a kingdom of priests. ALL - to the fullest meaning of all. How long did that last? Not long. Why? Who then was to take the roll? The first born? How long did that last? Not long, and we finally end up with the Levites. They were squeaky clean, right Korah? God had no problem? The nation continually rejected God and went backwards, not forwards. God had a huge problem. God is still having problems with His people!!!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: APL] #162371
02/26/14 05:14 AM
02/26/14 05:14 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
God has no problem selecting a certain one or group to accomplish His purposes--or even in choosing their family to be His special instruments forever. Look at the line of David for an example of this--established to be "king" in Israel perpetually (ultimately fulfilled in Christ).
God had no problem selecting a group? What? God selected ALL the people. Exodus 19:5-6 "Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure to me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." The whole of the people were to be a kingdom of priests. ALL - to the fullest meaning of all. How long did that last? Not long. Why? Who then was to take the roll? The first born? How long did that last? Not long, and we finally end up with the Levites. They were squeaky clean, right Korah? God had no problem? The nation continually rejected God and went backwards, not forwards. God had a huge problem. God is still having problems with His people!!!


You raise a good point. So, then, why did God not grant Korah his wish? What was wrong with Korah? Wasn't he a good leader? Wasn't he among the 70 elders of Israel? What was the reason God denied him the position of priest?

If God wanted them ALL to be priests, as you imply (this was never God's intent, as I understand it), why was Korah positively disallowed?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162373
02/26/14 05:24 AM
02/26/14 05:24 AM
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Green - It is written:Exodus 19:5-6 "Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure to me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;

All means all. But most rejected God.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: APL] #162380
02/26/14 06:20 AM
02/26/14 06:20 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Green - It is written:Exodus 19:5-6 "Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure to me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;

All means all. But most rejected God.


APL,

What does "above all" mean? Should God have chosen ALL people, instead of some to be "above all?" What happened to "all means all?"

We can also examine another part of this. God said "if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then...." Who obeyed His command to kill the transgressors of His law? The Levites. Was it because the men only did this that they were made the priests? or was there another reason for this? Why did God choose the entire family of Aaron, but made only their menfolk priests? If "all means all," as you say, then why were the women not made to be priestesses?

You see, APL, you have looked at the text and misinterpreted it. The only "all" in the verse refers to those who were NOT made priests.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162406
02/26/14 01:29 PM
02/26/14 01:29 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa


What does "above all" mean? Should God have chosen ALL people, instead of some to be "above all?" What happened to "all means all?"

We can also examine another part of this. God said "if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then...." Who obeyed His command to kill the transgressors of His law? The Levites. Was it because the men only did this that they were made the priests? or was there another reason for this? Why did God choose the entire family of Aaron, but made only their menfolk priests? If "all means all," as you say, then why were the women not made to be priestesses?

You see, APL, you have looked at the text and misinterpreted it. The only "all" in the verse refers to those who were NOT made priests.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Who gives you the authority of an infallible interpretation of the Bible?

Martin Luther claimed the Roman Catholic church interpreted this passage the way you do, and that was one reason why he started the Reformation. Are we to refute the Reformation? Should we adopt the Roman Catholic interpretation, just like you do?

I have never seen Ellen White interpret this passage the way you do.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #162411
02/26/14 02:31 PM
02/26/14 02:31 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
That's the verb form. The noun form of the word is diakonos (G1249). We can see all the verses here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1249&t=KJV

It is interesting that Paul applies the word to Phebe.


I guess Paul thought Phoebe should be a Deaconess. There isn't any problem with women being ordained to ministries as far as I can tell. It's when they are ordained to certain positions that is of concern.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #162413
02/26/14 02:38 PM
02/26/14 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.


Or governed by a strict order by the King, like in the KJV, to be certain the new Bible is fully in accordance with the doctrines established by papacy and inherited by the Church of England. . . and followed with waggling tails by all of those who believe this to be the only possible truth.

Actually the translators of KJV also followed how this and several other words had already been translated earlier with the approval of the establishment. This is by many regarded as the only true conservatism, conserved by tradition.


Blessings Johann,

I don't believe it's fair to take one small part of Church history out of context like that. Those translators could look at history including that of the Jews and never see a woman ordained as a Pastor of Elder. When considering 1 Cor. 9:13-14, they would never see a woman consecrated to the Priesthood. As a matter of fact, even to our day there still has never been a woman consecrated to the Priesthood.

So, I don't believe there was any political or cultural bias that had any effect on on the KJV Bible's translation. Not in this regard anyway.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #162414
02/26/14 02:41 PM
02/26/14 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.

I think the Greek word is much more cohesive than the English usages have come to be. We think of "minister" as an elevated position. But the word is more synonymous with the likes of "servant." Let the Bible explain itself, rather than imposing modern meanings upon ancient words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This is just what I have been saying. This is the reason why terms like minister, servant, and deacon, are almost like synonyms. One reason why I have such a difficulty understanding why certain people regard themselves as conservatives, and yet, perhaps reluctantly, agree that deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

Why should we today invent such distinctions that were unknown to Paul, just to invent a strange doctrine to make it possible to ordain some and not others?
(bold emphasis mine)

What distinction unknown to Paul do you think is being invented today Johann?

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #162415
02/26/14 02:49 PM
02/26/14 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I guess I will have to go dig it into it, but where did 'Elder' or the position of the elders come from, is it the equivalent of deacon?


The Greek word is generally "presbyteros". Translated mostly "elder" in English versions.

Going through the lists in my Young's Analytical I notice that all through the Old Testament and the Gospels the term applies generally to tribal leaders or captains in Israel.

It does not seem to apply to church leaders until in Acts.

Is this what our modern pastors are? Or are they diakonos?


Well, in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, Paul compares the "preachers of the Gospel" with the priests in the earthly temple. You will never find any women there! (Hebrews 7:5)

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #162416
02/26/14 02:57 PM
02/26/14 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.


Or governed by a strict order by the King, like in the KJV, to be certain the new Bible is fully in accordance with the doctrines established by papacy and inherited by the Church of England. . . and followed with waggling tails by all of those who believe this to be the only possible truth.

Actually the translators of KJV also followed how this and several other words had already been translated earlier with the approval of the establishment. This is by many regarded as the only true conservatism, conserved by tradition.


Blessings Johann,

I don't believe it's fair to take one small part of Church history out of context like that. Those translators could look at history including that of the Jews and never see a woman ordained as a Pastor of Elder. When considering 1 Cor. 9:13-14, they would never see a woman consecrated to the Priesthood. As a matter of fact, even to our day there still has never been a woman consecrated to the Priesthood.

So, I don't believe there was any political or cultural bias that had any effect on on the KJV Bible's translation. Not in this regard anyway.


If you really think this part of history is taken out of context then you should "complain" to the Bible Societies, because they were circulating this information in connection with the 400th anniversary of the KJV as part of the original history of that translation. That was how it came to my attention.

Just show them that you have much better information about what happened.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #162417
02/26/14 03:11 PM
02/26/14 03:11 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.

I think the Greek word is much more cohesive than the English usages have come to be. We think of "minister" as an elevated position. But the word is more synonymous with the likes of "servant." Let the Bible explain itself, rather than imposing modern meanings upon ancient words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This is just what I have been saying. This is the reason why terms like minister, servant, and deacon, are almost like synonyms. One reason why I have such a difficulty understanding why certain people regard themselves as conservatives, and yet, perhaps reluctantly, agree that deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

Why should we today invent such distinctions that were unknown to Paul, just to invent a strange doctrine to make it possible to ordain some and not others?
(bold emphasis mine)

What distinction unknown to Paul do you think is being invented today Johann?


The big distinction we make between various church offices.

Romans 16:1
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

Paul claims to be a deacon as well. We approve of ordaining deacons. Here we have this sister who was a deacon.

In Acts we are told that deacons baptized according to a literal understanding of the Bible.

Why do we make the distinction the Bible does not?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #162418
02/26/14 03:34 PM
02/26/14 03:34 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I guess I will have to go dig it into it, but where did 'Elder' or the position of the elders come from, is it the equivalent of deacon?


The Greek word is generally "presbyteros". Translated mostly "elder" in English versions.

Going through the lists in my Young's Analytical I notice that all through the Old Testament and the Gospels the term applies generally to tribal leaders or captains in Israel.

It does not seem to apply to church leaders until in Acts.

Is this what our modern pastors are? Or are they diakonos?


Well, in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, Paul compares the "preachers of the Gospel" with the priests in the earthly temple. You will never find any women there! (Hebrews 7:5)


As far as I can see the only comparison Paul makes is that those who function in the temple are to receive a compensation for their work. The Christians soon stopped gathering in the temple, but had their own convocations.

Only the Roman Catholic church continued with the offerings in their doctrine that the priest miraculously made a body of Jesus Christ of the wafer. And then he repeated the offering on the Old Testament.

Seventh-day Adventist have accepted that Jesus Christ is now our High Priest in the new Sanctuary service, and therefore there is no more a priest making an offering during the mass.

I have been through the system. I was asked to tell about our religion in a Roman Catholic Church. Before my lecture the priest performed a mass, but because I was not a Roman Catholic I could not have the wafer, also because I did not believe in the miracle that the wafer would become the real body of Christ in my mouth.

This shows us that we follow the Reformation. One of the reasons for the reformation was because the Roman Catholic church believed their priest fathers were miracle makers and followed the Old Testament system of male only priesthood.

Martin Luther claimed this was false, and he taught that any church member could perform any of the rites of the Church pastor, regardless of male or female, since we now are all members of the Royal Priesthood.

Are you a Protestant or a Roman Catholic today?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162419
02/26/14 03:39 PM
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Johann  Offline
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Thank you for the questions, Alchemy. Just ask again if I did not give an answer to your satisfaction.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162423
02/26/14 04:46 PM
02/26/14 04:46 PM
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Nowhere in the Bible does God forbid ordaining women elders and pastors. Jesus Himself ordained women to serve as leaders. His appointment means more than humans laying hands on someone (and humans refusing to lay hands on someone).

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162445
02/26/14 10:45 PM
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You are so right, MM, even if you search the Scripture for the literal meaning of the text, it isn't there.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #162452
02/27/14 12:09 AM
02/27/14 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: asygo
That's the verb form. The noun form of the word is diakonos (G1249). We can see all the verses here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1249&t=KJV

It is interesting that Paul applies the word to Phebe.


I guess Paul thought Phoebe should be a Deaconess. There isn't any problem with women being ordained to ministries as far as I can tell. It's when they are ordained to certain positions that is of concern.

Are there qualifications for deaconesses? Does the Bible specify? Or should we just ordain anyone who answers the call from the Nominating Committee?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #162457
02/27/14 01:06 AM
02/27/14 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nowhere in the Bible does God forbid ordaining women elders and pastors. Jesus Himself ordained women to serve as leaders. His appointment means more than humans laying hands on someone (and humans refusing to lay hands on someone).


You keep saying this but you have not even shown one scripture that supports this.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #162465
02/27/14 05:54 AM
02/27/14 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nowhere in the Bible does God forbid ordaining women elders and pastors. Jesus Himself ordained women to serve as leaders. His appointment means more than humans laying hands on someone (and humans refusing to lay hands on someone).


Nowhere in the Bible is ordination ever forbidden...of anyone. So we could turn your statement into one authorizing the ordination of ____________.

The problem with this need to find a prohibition is, God does not need to proscribe all of the "special cases" when it's much easier to set down qualifications for the called. People are unhappy with those qualifications, and look for loopholes, saying things like "Well, since God did not forbid this...."

What must God think to see His people looking for ways to sidestep His clear directions!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162485
02/27/14 02:32 PM
02/27/14 02:32 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Mountain Man said "Nowhere in the Bible does God forbid ordaining women elders and pastors."

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

***** STAFF EDIT *****

You said "Jesus Himself ordained women to serve as leaders".

***** STAFF EDIT *****

If Jesus ORDAINED a woman, prove it. Through scripture or any of the writings of the Lord's servant.

Last edited by Daryl; 03/03/14 12:12 AM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162565
02/28/14 04:14 PM
02/28/14 04:14 PM
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And what is your definition of "ordain"? Does it mean, "to enact"? Does it mean the same as ordaining Pastors and Elders?

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162589
02/28/14 07:47 PM
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Adam was the high priest, he was our patriarch, the eldest of our tribe, created first. One of the 24 elders before the throne.

This is the order of heaven and it is a test for the worldly inside of the church who will fall away as soon as persecution arises. You are being wieghed in the ballance right now.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162610
03/01/14 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: jsot
When there is no man to do the job God will use a woman.

Good point. Jesus choose her. Of the thousands of faithful Jewish men who had not bowed the knee to false gods Jesus chose Deborah to judge Israel.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #162611
03/01/14 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: jsot
When there is no man to do the job God will use a woman.

Good point. Jesus choose her. Of the thousands of faithful Jewish men who had not bowed the knee to false gods Jesus chose Deborah to judge Israel.


There were no faithful servants to do the deed. She was the only one. The king had no faith in the people because they had no faith. She was used to support the king not to userp his position as king or the position of the priests.

But she was the first to point out to the king that this was a mistake, she told him that he should lead the people but he refused so she had to step up. But she was still NEVER ordained.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162613
03/01/14 04:39 AM
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Mountain Man  Offline
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There was no king. Only judges. Jesus "raised" her "up".

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162633
03/01/14 03:52 PM
03/01/14 03:52 PM
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Green must be commended for the work that he has done in this thread in listing the various Biblical verses that contain a word that he wants to comment upon.

In accord with his thinking on the various translations, he has used the KJV, I believe.

He certainly has a point when he suggests that we look mainly at what the Bible says, rather that what people say about the Bible.

It must be noted that in his work he has demonstrated the problems that occur when a person who does not know and understand the language attempt to determine what the Bible says based upon a translation into English from the Biblical language.

I will give but one example from those that exist.

Look at his citation of Acts 14:23 and its use of the English word "ordained.'

Transliterated (not translated) into English, the Greek word is "cheirotoneo."

That word does not mean ordained. The KJV translators went beyond the literal meaning of the Greek word when they translated it as "ordained." This is just one example of the KJV translators doing such.

The Greek word more literally means: "to extend the hand." It is typically used in situations where thee has been an election, such as would occur where people were asked to raise their hands in a vote on an issue.

In a search for the Biblical meaning and teaching one is informed by knowledge of the Biblical languages and there is value in looking beyond the mere English meaning.

Yes, God has protected his Word. God has preserved it in a form that the common person can read and understand.

But, it is unwise to place full faith and credit in any one translation to the exclusion of others.




Last edited by Gregory; 03/01/14 04:19 PM.

Gregory
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Gregory] #162663
03/01/14 11:51 PM
03/01/14 11:51 PM
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In a previous post I said:
Quote:
Look at his citation of Acts 14:23 and its use of the English word "ordained.'

Transliterated (not translated) into English, the Greek word is "cheirotoneo."

That word does not mean ordained. The KJV translators went beyond the literal meaning of the Greek word when they translated it as "ordained." This is just one example of the KJV translators doing such.

The Greek word more literally means: "to extend the hand." It is typically used in situations where thee has been an election, such as would occur where people were asked to raise their hands in a vote on an issue.


This is an example of the bias that the KJV translators had.

NOTE: God has preserved His word, but He has preserved it in imperfect translations.


Gregory
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #162691
03/02/14 11:24 AM
03/02/14 11:24 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
There was no king. Only judges. Jesus "raised" her "up".


You are so right. There were no kings in Israel in the days of the judges.

It would be much easier to have a dialog with people who have read their Bibles and know the WORD of God.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162692
03/02/14 11:30 AM
03/02/14 11:30 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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* * * MOD HAT ON * * *

I'm locking this thread temporarily for some thread cleanup/splitting. The topic has shifted, and needs to be divided so that the original topic can continue.

EDIT: Thread cleanup is finished. Please remember that this thread is a Bible study, focused strictly on the Biblical aspects of ordination. There are other ordination threads where extra-Biblical resources can be brought in and discussed. Thank you for your courtesy in remembering this.

* * * MOD HAT OFF * * *


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 03/02/14 12:31 PM.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #162990
03/05/14 11:19 PM
03/05/14 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
There were no faithful servants to do the deed. She was the only one. The king had no faith in the people because they had no faith. She was used to support the king not to userp his position as king or the position of the priests. But she was the first to point out to the king that this was a mistake, she told him that he should lead the people but he refused so she had to step up. But she was still NEVER ordained.

Perhaps this what I prepared for you will help:



///

Attached Files
g3920.jpg (403 downloads)
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163287
03/12/14 07:44 AM
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jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Since this thread is entitled "ordination" from a strictly biblical perspective, I challenge anyone to come up with one bible quote or one Spirit of Prophecy quote where the term Ordination is used for a woman.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163292
03/12/14 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Since this thread is entitled "ordination" from a strictly biblical perspective, I challenge anyone to come up with one bible quote or one Spirit of Prophecy quote where the term Ordination is used for a woman.

Why do you BLUNTLY refuse the leading of the Spirit in this matter? See Acts 2:17-18. Is it not written to each church, that "he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches"? Don't be stubborn!

For too long you have been willingly wallowing in deception and ignorance. Do what is right now and obey God rather than man; and you will not found wanting in the day of judgement.

///

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163297
03/12/14 04:26 PM
03/12/14 04:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Ordaining women to serve as pastors or elders is too contentious to be worthy of discussion. Tempers flare, people get ugly, and words fly like bullets. Proving women were not ordained in the OT or NT by the laying on of hands is easy. But trying to prove from the Bible that God prohibits it is impossible. The fact God raises up women to serve and lead should be sufficient. Asking men to ordain them by the laying ion of hands is too volatile to pursue. It's not worth the heat.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #163299
03/12/14 05:07 PM
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jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Ordaining women to serve as pastors or elders is too contentious to be worthy of discussion. Tempers flare, people get ugly, and words fly like bullets. Proving women were not ordained in the OT or NT by the laying on of hands is easy. But trying to prove from the Bible that God prohibits it is impossible. The fact God raises up women to serve and lead should be sufficient. Asking men to ordain them by the laying ion of hands is too volatile to pursue. It's not worth the heat.


This is so funny. On one thread someone is telling me I am teaching the doctrines of men, and on this thread someone is saying the bible is not sufficient to guide us through all truth. Which is it?

You do not know the truth if you think for one minute the bible is not sufficient for guiding the church through ALL DOCTRINES Mt Man.

“Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,” he continued, “deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation.... All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” God has provided abundant means for successful warfare against the evil that is in the world. The Bible is the armory where we may equip for the struggle. Our loins must be girt about with truth. Our breastplate must be righteousness. The shield of faith must be in our hand, the helmet of salvation on our brow; and with the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, we are to cut our way through the obstructions and entanglements of sin. {AA 502.2}


But according to you Mt Man there is another doctrine outside of scripture that we can find? If it's NOT IN THE BIBLE IT SHOULD NOT BE IN OUR CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And by the way, this would not be an issue if men like you were holding on to what the bible says. The words would not be flying, but since this is an end time issue, and we are being attacked by men who want to change the church, do you think it is a good idea for us who want to preserve the peculaiarity of the church to just remain silent andf let idiots take over?

You do not know how to govern in righteousness if you think that is the case.

By the way, I see you posting here too. You have made your oppinion known, why can't I? Just because I do so with a vengeance because MY GOD has has prompted me to do so, does not make the words He gives me evil. Only those who are attacking the word of God or those who would roll over and let them take over are doing evil Mt MAN.




Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163310
03/12/14 07:46 PM
03/12/14 07:46 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Mt Man, you said;

"Proving women were not ordained in the OT or NT by the laying on of hands is easy. But trying to prove from the Bible that God prohibits it is impossible".

How do you rationalize this statement with these Bible quotes?

1 Cor: 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

How could a woman be ordained yet follow this doctrine? You say it's not in scripture but there it is. Are you saing Paul was lying when he said it is the LAW of God? You do not know how to rightly divide the word of truth.

Women can sing and give testimony, and prophecy, but they are not supposed to be Ordained to lead the church. For man is the head of woman to guide the church, not to control. But GOD is the supposed to control all of us, and in this LAW is His will. Do you know better than God?

As Elder Waggoner wrote; "the man who does not acknowledge Paul’s writings as the commandments of the Lord, is unspiritual. He cannot discern spiritual things. How many are putting their own unspiritual doubts in the place of the holy word of God. {SITI December 29, 1890, p. 603.4}

But you say it's not in scripture. Should we go through this again? Have you put blinders on so you cannot see the word of God?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163323
03/13/14 04:48 AM
03/13/14 04:48 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, what do you believe Paul is saying in 1 Cor 14:34-35? Is he saying God prohibits women speaking or learning in church?

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #163325
03/13/14 04:55 AM
03/13/14 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, what do you believe Paul is saying in 1 Cor 14:34-35? Is he saying God prohibits women speaking or learning in church?


DIDN'T YOU EVEN READ WHAT I POSTED? This is so agrivating.

I said "women can sing and women can testify and women can Prophecy", didn't you read before speaking?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #163326
03/13/14 04:57 AM
03/13/14 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, what do you believe Paul is saying in 1 Cor 14:34-35? Is he saying God prohibits women speaking or learning in church?


This proves that you are arguing with the inspiration that Paul was under from the Holy Spirit.

You will attack without even listening first.

You and APL and Kland are like the Pharisees who shut their ears and gnashed their teeth when they didn't want to hear what was being said.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163327
03/13/14 05:01 AM
03/13/14 05:01 AM
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Listen carefully;

"God is calling for men who are willing to leave their farms, their business, if need be their families, to become missionaries for Him. And the call will be answered. In the past there have been men who, stirred by the love of Christ and the needs of the lost, have left the comforts of home and the society of friends, even that of wife and children, to go into foreign lands, among idolaters and savages, to proclaim the message of mercy." {AA 370.1}

Men leaving their wives to minister in the name of Christ. Does this say women leaving their husbands and CHILDREN?

I'm telling you in the name of Jesus, you are about to cross a line that you will NEVER get to come back from.

This is inspired, you better take heed.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163331
03/13/14 05:13 AM
03/13/14 05:13 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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I was part of the Andover SDA church here in Minnesota fifteen years ago.

One of the elders was a rich young woman, who I knew very well. I was invited to her home week after week by her husband. They would have the most worldly meetings in their home, but I didn't really know better at the time to not go there because all my friends from the church were there.

She announced one Sabbath in front of at least 20 people and ten children how discusted she was with the church that we will not permit homosexuals to be elders or ministers or even to be baptized.

Then she announced "well I've fooled them all, I love women, and I don't see anything wrong with that". She said she lusted after other young women there in the Sabbath meeting we were at. None of those women seemed suprized because she had told them privately that she lusted after them. They said "Oh that's just the way P-----ce is."

THIS WAS AN ELDER and a leader IN THE CHURCH! She wasn't even 30 years old then!

When she found out that I believe that she will be condemned for those actions, she used all of her influence against me in that church and became my enemy. Her husband said nothing and thought I was being selfish for addressing her sins that she perpetrated in front of children.

This is the spirit that motivates women to be Ordained.

She was ordained as an elder because she was rich and her father was a deacon.

Is this what the church of Christ has become?







Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163332
03/13/14 05:14 AM
03/13/14 05:14 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: JSOT
M: James, what do you believe Paul is saying in 1 Cor 14:34-35? Is he saying God prohibits women speaking or learning in church?

J: I said "women can sing and women can testify and women can Prophecy" . . .

But is that what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:34-35?

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163338
03/13/14 05:51 AM
03/13/14 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder


How do you rationalize this statement with these Bible quotes?

1 Cor: 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.



Everyone has a different interpretation for that Bible verse, no one on this forum that I have read, takes it literal, not even you.

First -- it does not say anything about ordination.

Secondly -- I presented thoughts on this text once before and people told me not to take it literally, including you, and including your quote from Waggoner who added a lot of exceptions.

Most recognize that earlier (chpt. 11) women were allowed to speak as long as their heads were covered.

Yet Paul says THREE TIMES in that verse, not just once, but THREE TIMES, with no qualifications or exceptions like you just made, that women were to be silent.
He doesn't say they must be silent EXCEPT .... (to sing, to prophecy, to testify) Three times the text emphatically says they are to be silent, not to speak -- and it gives NO exceptions.

So maybe that prophesying and praying mentioned earlier wasn't in church. Maybe they had a special room for women and that was the only place they could prophecy since they weren't allowed to speak in church? That would make more sense if we were to take the above text literally as it reads.

People usually add a lot of exceptions into that verse to the point where women can speak in all manner of leadership roles in the church as long as they are not ordained. But the text has nothing to do with ordination.




Paul is answering a question.
And that question was not about ordination.
So not sure why people see that verse as Paul saying "I do not allow the ordination of women", for he isn't saying that -- it's not the subject of this verse.

Remember Paul, in this letter, is answering a letter sent to him. (see 1 Cor. 7:1)


There is something very interesting when these verses are read in context.


Quote:
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.


The three chapters leading up to these verses were all dealing with bringing order into the confusion that was reigning in the Corinthian church.

Could Paul be addressing a Corinthian solution to their disorderly services. Silencing women may have been the solution the Corinthians suggested in their letter to Paul. It would fit the prevailing values of the first century in which women did not speak in public. So Paul voices their solution in its extreme to show them their fallacy in thinking this is the solution -- just silence the woman.

BUT WHAT is Paul's reaction to the suggestion for silencing the women?

He exclaims "WHAT? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

Sounds like a rebuke to those who suggested it.

He makes it plain that the service is to be for all.
His solution is
Let all things be done decently and in order,
Don't silence

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163341
03/13/14 06:17 AM
03/13/14 06:17 AM
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Are you two not members of the SDA church?

Here is what the official doctrine of the Christian church has been for two thousand years on this scripture and if you knew the order of the officially ORDAINED church doctrine on this you would know this.

Read carefully.

“Women in the Church” The Signs of the Times, 13, 18.

E. J. Waggoner

We are asked by a subscriber in Washington Territory to explain how the usages of Seventh-day Adventists, and of many other religious bodies as well, can be harmonized with 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35, and 1 Timothy 2:11, 12. He asks: “Were these commands transient? if so, when did they cease to be binding, and by what authority?”...
The question on the text itself is worthy of consideration, for many good people think that the Bible forbids women to take part in public religious service. 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35, reads as follows:- {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.14}
Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.15}
It is worthy of mention that those who are most bitterly opposed to women’s taking part in public service, are inconsistent with their own interpretation of this text. They interpret it to mean that women should never speak in public, either to preach, or to bear testimony in prayer-meeting; yet there is not a church in the land which does not have women singers, and in many of them the singing would greatly languish if it were not for the women. Now it is certain that those who sing do not “keep silence.” We do not think that this is wrong, not a violation of Paul’s injunction; we cite this instance merely for the purpose of showing the inconsistency of those who interpret Paul’s words as prohibiting speaking in meeting, but allowing singing. Now if the injunction to “keep silence” does not prohibit singing, it is reasonable to suppose that it does not prohibit speaking at proper times and in a proper manner, for simple speaking is far more nearly an approach to silence than is ordinary singing. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.16}
And this we shall find to be the case, when we consider a few other texts; for we must always let scripture explain scripture. Read the other text to which our correspondent referred, 1 Timothy 2:11, 12: “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” This must certainly be considered as parallel to, and explanatory of, 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35. But there is nothing in it which would stop a woman from bearing testimony in social meeting, or even from preaching. Notice that Paul says: “I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man,” the idea being of a women’s setting herself up as superior, and assuming authority which does not belong to her. But a simple testimony for Christ is the farthest removed from the assumption of authority, and even the preacher who usurps authority over his hearers, is out of place. The place of the preacher is not to be a lord over God’s heritage, but to act the part of an ambassador for Christ. From the two texts quoted we must conclude that Paul did not mean to prohibit women from witnessing publicly for Christ, but only to have them act with becoming modesty. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.17}
This conclusion is made positive by other texts. In 1 Corinthians 11:4, 5, 13, the same apostle says: “Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head; for that is even all one as if she were shaven.” “Judge in yourselves; is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?” {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.18}
In these verses, and the context, the apostle is giving directions for the proper conducting of public worship. Now if in chapter 14 he meant to teach that women should utter no sound in public service, why did he here give directions concerning their praying and speaking in public assemblies? Certainly no directions are needed for the performance of that which is forbidden, and the fact that Paul tells how women should pray and prophesy in public meeting, shows that such action was not forbidden. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.19}
To forbid women any of the privileges of the gospel would be utterly at variance with the spirit of the gospel. Says Paul: “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:27, 28. That means that in the gospel plan there is no difference made for race, condition, or sex. A woman stands before God a sinner, just the same as a man; she is responsible for her own sins, and, if saved, must be saved in exactly the same way that a man is. No Christian would think of prohibiting a person from taking part in meeting, on the ground that he is a servant, or because he is of a different nationality from the majority of the members of the church; then no Christian should prevent a person from speaking to the praise of God, because that person is a woman. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.20}
To interpret Paul’s language in 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35, as meaning that women should bear no part in public worship is to do violence to the Scriptures which, being inspired, must always and everywhere be harmonious. Thus in Acts 21:8, 9, we read that Philip the evangelist “had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.” Paul speaks of Phebe, “a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea” (Romans 16:1), and in Philippians 4:3 bespeaks the care of the church for “those women which labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other fellow-laborers.” And the mighty and eloquent Apollos was instructed in the way of God by Aquila and his wife Priscilla. Acts 18:2, 24-26. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.21}
In the Old Testament we read of “Miriam the prophetess” (Exodus 15:20) by whom the Lord spoke as well as by Moses and Aaron (Numbers 12:1, 2). We read also (Judges 4) of “Deborah, a prophetess” who judged Israel, and whose wisdom and prudence were esteemed so highly that Barak would not go to war without her counsel and her presence. Still later we read of “Huldah the prophetess” (2 Kings 22:14) to whom Josiah sent when he would inquire of the Lord concerning the book of the law which the priest had found. There is something remarkable about this case. At this time Jeremiah had been prophesying for five years, yet the king sent to Huldah instead of to him. Moreover the king’s messengers to the prophetess were, among others, a scribe of the law, and the high priest, whose lips should keep knowledge, and at whose mouth men were accustomed to seek the law. Micah 2:7. Yet it seems that on this occasion no one had the word of the Lord except this woman. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.22}
We have considered this matter at this length not only for the satisfaction of our correspondent, but also to meet a very common infidel cavil. There are many men, and more women, of a class who seek to overthrow the divinely-established order of nature, who are accustomed to rail at the apostle Paul as a crusty old bachelor and a misogynist, because of his words to the Corinthians. Hastily assuming that he absolutely forbade women to take any part in public meetings, they think that the present liberty accorded to women is an evidence of the advance which people of the nineteenth century have made over Paul’s antiquated notions. From railing at Paul they naturally come to despise all his writings, and as a natural consequence, they lightly esteem the entire Bible. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 279.1}
But Paul was not crusty, he was not a misogynist, and he was not a bachelor. He was a large-hearted, whole-souled, loving Christian, who treats of the family relation with a knowledge and tenderness not exceeded by any writer who ever lived. Instead of commanding women to say nothing in meetings for the worship of God, he encouraged them even to occupy responsible positions. What he did do was to give instruction that would keep them from being classed with the heathen women who, in their eagerness for notice, divested themselves of that modesty which always characterizes true woman, and which the gospel tends to heighten. W. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 279.2}

THIS IS THE OFFICIAL SDA/ CHRISTIAN CHURCH DOCTRINE ON THIS TEXT. IF YOU ARGUE AGAINST IT MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL!


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163342
03/13/14 06:51 AM
03/13/14 06:51 AM
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I think you tend to "rail" out without reading what people are saying.

Waggoner clearly says Paul didn't mean that "women be silent".


Women be silent don't speak in church, it's a shame to speak -- no, Waggoner says, Paul didn't mean that.
I agreed Paul didn't mean that.

But then Waggoner goes on to say that Paul did mean that, and even though the text emphatically declares three times, with NO EXCEPTIONS that women be silent with no speaking, no discussion, Waggoner tries to hang on to thinking Paul did mean it, but then has to rationalizes a lot of exceptions (since Paul was earlier saying women could pray and testify etc) and then Waggoner puts a whole different meaning on it.

However, either Paul meant it, or he didn't mean it.
This going around in circles (he didn't mean it, but he did mean it) just confuses the issue.


That verse in 1 Cor. 14 isn't talking about women usurping superiority by speaking -- it isn't talking about ordination. Paul is refuting the Corinthians that want to silence women, and it is obvious he says that women can participate as long as it's done decently and in order.


Quote:
THE CONCERNED CORINTHIAN'S SUGGESTION
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

PAUL'S RESPONSE TO THEIR SUGGESTION:
14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.


The way that text is used and understood by most people is not correct.



And by the way -- Waggoner's article is not OFFICIAL POSITION, it is his own study.








Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163359
03/13/14 10:27 AM
03/13/14 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
I was part of the Andover SDA church here in Minnesota fifteen years ago.

One of the elders was a rich young woman, who I knew very well. I was invited to her home week after week by her husband. They would have the most worldly meetings in their home, but I didn't really know better at the time to not go there because all my friends from the church were there.

She announced one Sabbath in front of at least 20 people and ten children how discusted she was with the church that we will not permit homosexuals to be elders or ministers or even to be baptized.

Then she announced "well I've fooled them all, I love women, and I don't see anything wrong with that". She said she lusted after other young women there in the Sabbath meeting we were at. None of those women seemed suprized because she had told them privately that she lusted after them. They said "Oh that's just the way P-----ce is."

THIS WAS AN ELDER and a leader IN THE CHURCH! She wasn't even 30 years old then!

When she found out that I believe that she will be condemned for those actions, she used all of her influence against me in that church and became my enemy. Her husband said nothing and thought I was being selfish for addressing her sins that she perpetrated in front of children.

This is the spirit that motivates women to be Ordained.

She was ordained as an elder because she was rich and her father was a deacon.

Is this what the church of Christ has become?






Long ago, when Roman Catholicism had fallen away, the leaders had a tendency, in which they indulged themselves with impunity, to tell fanciful tales to get people aflutter and do as they wished. Suddenly, it seemed, the nails of the cross were with them, the shroud, the bones, and miracles testifying to their "autenticity".

Some members here are demonstrating, in very strange ways, this very tendency. The leading of the Spirit of prophecy (the Holy Scriptures, Acts 2:17-18) has been supplanted by them with dubious claims of prophethood, and with words that do NOT profit. Then they vehemently decry those who speak the truth.

///

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: James Peterson] #163360
03/13/14 05:04 PM
03/13/14 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
I was part of the Andover SDA church here in Minnesota fifteen years ago.

One of the elders was a rich young woman, who I knew very well. I was invited to her home week after week by her husband. They would have the most worldly meetings in their home, but I didn't really know better at the time to not go there because all my friends from the church were there.

She announced one Sabbath in front of at least 20 people and ten children how discusted she was with the church that we will not permit homosexuals to be elders or ministers or even to be baptized.

Then she announced "well I've fooled them all, I love women, and I don't see anything wrong with that". She said she lusted after other young women there in the Sabbath meeting we were at. None of those women seemed suprized because she had told them privately that she lusted after them. They said "Oh that's just the way P-----ce is."

THIS WAS AN ELDER and a leader IN THE CHURCH! She wasn't even 30 years old then!

When she found out that I believe that she will be condemned for those actions, she used all of her influence against me in that church and became my enemy. Her husband said nothing and thought I was being selfish for addressing her sins that she perpetrated in front of children.

This is the spirit that motivates women to be Ordained.

She was ordained as an elder because she was rich and her father was a deacon.

Is this what the church of Christ has become?






Long ago, when Roman Catholicism had fallen away, the leaders had a tendency, in which they indulged themselves with impunity, to tell fanciful tales to get people aflutter and do as they wished. Suddenly, it seemed, the nails of the cross were with them, the shroud, the bones, and miracles testifying to their "autenticity".

Some members here are demonstrating, in very strange ways, this very tendency. The leading of the Spirit of prophecy (the Holy Scriptures, Acts 2:17-18) has been supplanted by them with dubious claims of prophethood, and with words that do NOT profit. Then they vehemently decry those who speak the truth.

///


Why do you think you have to continually mention the Catholic church as a guideline for the Seventh Day Adventist church?

I was givining a personal testimony. The bible gives us plenty of examples of using personal testimony to get a point across. Are you saying Jesus was inspired by the Catholics?

Do you deny scripture?

I have renounced Catholicism as from Satan, you keep mentioning them in reguards to the true Church of Christ like that is all you think about.

Prove your point through scripture or shut your mouth demon. In the name of Jesus amen.

You are a master at distraction. Trying to convey your demonic thoughts as if your words mean more than scripture. I can prove EVERYTHING I just said that you are mocking. The Catholic church cannot prove ANY Of the claims that you mentioned as similar to my claims.

I gave the name of the church I used to go to and and I can supply about 30 witnesses to the day I was mentioning. Can you say that about your precious Catholic church?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: James Peterson] #163361
03/13/14 05:19 PM
03/13/14 05:19 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Long ago, when Roman Catholicism had fallen away...


Everyone here, witness the words of this man...

Mr Peterson, are you claiming that the Catholic Church "fell away"?

The Catholic Church was NEVER in Christ EVER!!!!!!!!

The Mystery of iniquity was alive in the time of Paul, hundreds of years BEFORE the Catholic Church was officially formed. They sprung from the evil root of the mystery of iniquity from their inception.

You are starting to sound more and more like a Catholic Apologist. They claim that the Catholic Church was the orginal church since the beginning. The bible says they were NEVER in Christ EVER!!!!

The Roman church is not the white horse church, they have always been the beast, the mystery of Iniquity has always been at the root of Catholicism. The DRAGON gave them their seat and authority. ONLY A CATHOLIC WOULD CLAIM THEY FELL AWAY FROM THE FAITH.

You prove over and over who you serve.

FALLEN is Babylon th Great.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: dedication] #163362
03/13/14 05:42 PM
03/13/14 05:42 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
I think you tend to "rail" out without reading what people are saying.

Waggoner clearly says Paul didn't mean that "women be silent".


Women be silent don't speak in church, it's a shame to speak -- no, Waggoner says, Paul didn't mean that.
I agreed Paul didn't mean that.

But then Waggoner goes on to say that Paul did mean that, and even though the text emphatically declares three times, with NO EXCEPTIONS that women be silent with no speaking, no discussion, Waggoner tries to hang on to thinking Paul did mean it, but then has to rationalizes a lot of exceptions (since Paul was earlier saying women could pray and testify etc) and then Waggoner puts a whole different meaning on it.

However, either Paul meant it, or he didn't mean it.
This going around in circles (he didn't mean it, but he did mean it) just confuses the issue.


That verse in 1 Cor. 14 isn't talking about women usurping superiority by speaking -- it isn't talking about ordination. Paul is refuting the Corinthians that want to silence women, and it is obvious he says that women can participate as long as it's done decently and in order.


Quote:
THE CONCERNED CORINTHIAN'S SUGGESTION
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

PAUL'S RESPONSE TO THEIR SUGGESTION:
14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.


The way that text is used and understood by most people is not correct.



And by the way -- Waggoner's article is not OFFICIAL POSITION, it is his own study.




Please read carefully, I have obviously been reading your posts closer than you have mine, and I will prove it.

Where in what I wrote do see me saying women should keep silent permanently in church? Talk about jumping to conclusions. You obviously didn't read what I said very well.

My point was that women are to be under subjection to men in the church, which IS biblical! I used the quote from Waggoner to show that women can sing in church, and women can give testimony in church, and women can prophesy in church (with head covered) because there are other texts that Paul wrote that gave guidelines to how this should be done.

I was quoting that writing to show what the PIONEERS believed. Waggoner was speaking for the church!!! He kept saying "WE BELIEVE" and this would NEVER have happened if this wasn't the official doctrine of our church, or Mrs. White would have rebuked him in the Spirit, and not one person contradicts this statement out of all of the pioneers of the SDA church.

Women could not possibly be ordained under those guidelines...that was my point.

And I want to point something gently because you may not have seen this in the quote even though I emphasized it for you very clearly, but you said;

"That verse in 1 Cor. 14 isn't talking about women usurping superiority by speaking"

This is a lie. You might not have seen it, but you are speaking a lie here. This is what Waggoner said in that quote that you obviously missed...

"But there is nothing in it which would stop a woman from bearing testimony in social meeting, or even from preaching. Notice that Paul says: “I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man,” the idea being of a women’s setting herself up as superior, and assuming authority which does not belong to her.

Waggoner is saying that this text IS about women usurping authority by speaking.

Are claiming this is not true? Are you saying that Waggoner didn't say that? OR are you claiming that you know more about this subject than Waggoner or even Paul himself?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163365
03/13/14 06:25 PM
03/13/14 06:25 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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“While I do not make it a part of my work to presume to interpret that which has been written, yet I may be pardoned for expressing as my conviction the thought that this article published in the Review does not refer to the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel, but rather touches upon the question of setting apart, for special duties in local churches, God-fearing women in such churches where circumstances call for such action.
And may I add that Sister White, personally, was very careful about expressing herself in any wise as to the advisability of ordaining women as gospel ministers. She has often spoken of the perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a gainsaying world; but as yet I have never seen from her pen any statement that would seem to encourage the formal and official ordination of women to the gospel ministry, to public labor such as is ordinarily expected of an ordained minister... it is simply saying that so far as my knowledge extends, Sister White never encouraged church officials to depart from the general customs of the church in those matters.”—C. C. Crisler

THE "GENERAL CUSTOMS OF THE CHURCH" Dedication!

This is a personal testimony from a very close friend of Mrs White. How could someone so close to Mrs White get this wrong? Do you think she was a hypocrite who wrote one thing but lived a different belief?

So if Mrs White was quoted as commenting on "the perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a gainsaying world" then wouldn't this be a condemnation of the practice to avoid persecution from the world?

Doesn't this mean she was saying the practice of ordaining women to the church as pastors would lessen our influence in the world? Why would the General Conference try to over rule this testimony and want the church to be in peril?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163366
03/13/14 07:10 PM
03/13/14 07:10 PM
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James, E. J. Waggoner did not dictate dogma or doctrine for the church. He merely stated his opinion.

In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul is obviously addressing disorderly worship services. "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" Verse 23. His concern is for visitors. Orderly worship edifies. Disorderly worship vilifies.

The fact Paul counsels women to learn from their husbands at home strongly suggests asking their husbands during worship services added to the confusion and disorderliness. The same thing is true of anyone asking questions during worship services in a loud and disorderly manner.

There was an elderly couple who caused disorder during church services because he would loudly ask his wife, "What did he say?" And then she would loudly repeat it. We solved the problem by issuing him an assisted hearing device.

There was a young family who caused disorder during church service because the children loudly asked their mom and dad to explain the sermon. Mom and dad tried to accommodate them as quietly as they could but it still very disruptive. We solved the problem by installing a window and speakers in a side room.

Paul is not prohibiting ordaining women to serve as pastors or elders. Paul is simply counseling people to conduct orderly, godly worship services. He counseled men and women to "keep silence in the church" when speaking causes confusion and disorder. "Let him keep silence in the church". Verse 28. "Let your women keep silence in the churches". Verse 34.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #163369
03/13/14 08:12 PM
03/13/14 08:12 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, E. J. Waggoner did not dictate dogma or doctrine for the church. He merely stated his opinion.

In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul is obviously addressing disorderly worship services. "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" Verse 23. His concern is for visitors. Orderly worship edifies. Disorderly worship vilifies.

The fact Paul counsels women to learn from their husbands at home strongly suggests asking their husbands during worship services added to the confusion and disorderliness. The same thing is true of anyone asking questions during worship services in a loud and disorderly manner.

There was an elderly couple who caused disorder during church services because he would loudly ask his wife, "What did he say?" And then she would loudly repeat it. We solved the problem by issuing him an assisted hearing device.

There was a young family who caused disorder during church service because the children loudly asked their mom and dad to explain the sermon. Mom and dad tried to accommodate them as quietly as they could but it still very disruptive. We solved the problem by installing a window and speakers in a side room.

Paul is not prohibiting ordaining women to serve as pastors or elders. Paul is simply counseling people to conduct orderly, godly worship services. He counseled men and women to "keep silence in the church" when speaking causes confusion and disorder. "Let him keep silence in the church". Verse 28. "Let your women keep silence in the churches". Verse 34.


****** STAFF EDIT ******

Waggoner was expressing the doctrines of our church and the historica Christian church and EVERYONE agreed. He said WE, not HE, and You do not speak for the church. ****** STAFF EDIT ******

Are you saying that the historical church and the Pioneers did not agree on this subject?

Then why would there be no change until little children like you think to change what has been for 2000 years?

Do you deny that this has been the historical view on this?

Last edited by Daryl; 03/20/14 12:44 AM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163377
03/14/14 05:51 AM
03/14/14 05:51 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Please read carefully, I have obviously been reading your posts closer than you have mine, and I will prove it.

Where in what I wrote do see me saying women should keep silent permanently in church? Talk about jumping to conclusions. You obviously didn't read what I said very well.


Firstly in speaking of 1 Cor. 14:24-25, never did I say YOU SAID women should keep silent permanently in church. So not sure why you used that as an example.

I wrote --
" I presented thoughts on this text once before and people told me not to take it literally, including you, and including your quote from Waggoner who added a lot of exceptions."

Everyone makes exception to that verse, no one takes it as it reads -- including YOU! That was my point.

Originally Posted By: Jamesonofthunder

My point was that women are to be under subjection to men in the church, which IS biblical!


And I don't agree with that point. Christ is the head of the church, not men. Women are not to be in subjection to men in the church.
Do you realize how many women have been sexually as well as spiritually abused because of that false teaching? Thousands upon thousands, way more than your example of one woman who turned out to be a lesbian. A lot of male ministers have turned out to be homosexuals as well.

Yes, we are to respect the minister and support him (when he is leading according to God's ways) but be in subjection to other men (other than one's husband) that is not Biblical.

That is Catholic Doctrine. Strict obedience to ecclesiastical leadership is essential doctrine in the Catholic Church. It is brought to its extreme in the Jesuit order as subordinates must obey "like a corpse" and ask no questions but do whatever the superior commands.

That is not how it is to be in the true church.

Matt 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and said unto them, You know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you.








Originally Posted By: Jamesonofthunder
I used the quote from Waggoner to show that women can sing in church, and women can give testimony in church, and women can prophesy in church (with head covered) because there are other texts that Paul wrote that gave guidelines to how this should be done.


I know what Waggoner wrote, that's why I said he doesn't believe Paul meant what we read in that three fold command for women to be silent, not to speak, either.

Neither you, nor Waggoner take that text as it reads.
Both of you make a lot of exceptions to a very emphatic thrice stated command.

That's why I said I agree, Paul wasn't teaching the things that verse said -- he was quoting the Corthinians who first wrote to him, and then rebuked them saying, "What? do you think the Word of God came only to you?

Paul's commands were that women could prophecy, witness, sing etc etc, in church, as long as everything was done in decency and order, but these Corinthians wanted to silence them, and Paul rebuked them.

The ones who thought they were so superior, were those Corinthians who wanted to silence all women. And they meant women were to maintain absolute silence -- no speaking.


Paul in 1 Cor. 14 isn't saying women are usurping superiority by speaking in church. That is reading things into the verse. He isn't speaking of ordination here.



And that is the truth.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: dedication] #163378
03/14/14 07:10 AM
03/14/14 07:10 AM
dedication  Online Content
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In 1Corinthians Paul is answering questions which were asked in a letter written by some members of the Corinthian church.
It's like people answering questions on this forum, he sometimes quoted from the letter and then addressed the issue. The problem is -- the quotation marks, or whatever they used to mark quotes, have been lost.

The only way we can tell is when a statement appears which Paul then refutes.

The following is to illustrate this in Paul's letter.

Example One:
1 Cor. 7:15 "Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: 'It is well for a man not to touch a woman'"

The clause "It is well for a man not to touch a woman" should be regarded as the suggestion made by the Corinthians who have been influenced by some who taught abstinence in marriage.

In the texts that follow Paul clearly refutes that position.

EXAMPLE TWO:
The Corinthians have described their experience at the Lord's Supper.
11:21 For in eating every one takes his own supper ahead of others, and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

Obviously that was not what Paul is recommending for he reproves the practice in the next verse

11:22 What? have you not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise you the church of God, ....


EXAMPLE THREE:

6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

So Paul has strongly told the Corinthians they MUST experience a changed life in order to enter the kingdom. God has provided for their cleansing.

Then comes this confusing passage:

6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them.

This is a gnostic thought brought in from the Corinthian's background -- they are saying it doesn't matter what we do with the body it will be destroyed anyway, as long as in spirit we serve God.

Paul refutes this thinking in the next verses.

The body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
6:14 And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.




In the same way Paul, first quotes their position and then refutes the Corinthians who want to silence women from testifying, prophesying and speaking in church.






Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163388
03/14/14 08:58 PM
03/14/14 08:58 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Dedication, why are the names of women and children not counted among the number? Do you think God is a mysoganist? Or do you think the apostles were only being influenced by the traditions of the day?

In other words are you saying that Paul was not being inspired to say these things are the law of God?

Why was such a strong injunction placed upon the disciples that ONLY widdows over the age of 60 were to be deacons, and why they were the only women to be counted among the number? Why did Paul say the younger widows were to be excluded?

If the Holy Spirit is guiding your thoughts here why are you trying to explain away direct injunctions by an Apostle? Are you more qualified to explain these things than Paul?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: dedication] #163391
03/14/14 09:29 PM
03/14/14 09:29 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication

Originally Posted By: Jamesonofthunder

My point was that women are to be under subjection to men in the church, which IS biblical!


And I don't agree with that point. Christ is the head of the church, not men. Women are not to be in subjection to men in the church.

Do you realize how many women have been sexually as well as spiritually abused because of that false teaching? Thousands upon thousands, way more than your example of one woman who turned out to be a lesbian. A lot of male ministers have turned out to be homosexuals as well.


Here again is the same argument you guys always run to. You always say "Look how many women have been abused under these guidelines".

I have said over and over that the abuses of men are no excuse not to follow the commands of God.

You said "I don't agree with that point. Christ is the head of the church, not men. Women are not to be in subjection to men in the church."

But 1 Corinthians 11:3 says; "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

You just in essence said you don't believe that this is inspired?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163392
03/14/14 09:50 PM
03/14/14 09:50 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Listen, I am not doing this to be mean. I truly am being motivated by the Holy Spirit to address this. God inspires me to challenge false doctrines to help prepare the church for what is coming. Do you find fault in me for this?

If you could see my life, and see the wonderful blessings I have received in the light of all of this you would understand that I am not speaking for myself.

My wife is one of the greatest blessing I have ever received. She is from Indonesia where domestic violence is almost unheard of and they follow the natural order of men, even though 80% of Indonesia is Muslim, 10% are Christian and half of them are SDA and their families are strong and supportive.

I have never seen a more blessed church than the poor SDA people of Indonesia. They know how to govern their lives in light of these scriptural commands. The divorce rate is less than 5% in a lifetime! The children grow up understanding the power of the family.

In AMERICA you can't find hardly any women willing to listen to these scriptures and look at divorce rate even among SDA in this country! Our divorce rate is as high as non SDA people and just as many of our children go to jail for drugs and alcohol.

A Pastors kid here in my local church made the movie "Seventh GAY Adventist" and there are people pushing for this to be shown in our local congregations!

If you trace all these recent abominations of our church they all stem from a lack of respect for the biblical comprehension of the order of the church. When the United States SDA church started pushing for Women ordination of elders the evidence showed a direct correlation between this movement and the divorce rate. When the push for homosexual baptism came into the church the rate of young people experimenting with homosexual lifestyle shot up like a rocket.

I have personally heard a pastor say that homosexuality is genetic, and this same pastor was secretly baptizing homosexuals in our church and making them deacons and deaconesses within months of their baptism. I found out by seeing a known homosexual woman passing the collection plate with her lesbian biker jacket on and she was baptized weeks before. Do you think it is right that pastors like him (who had refused ordination in the SDA church) should have the power to do things like this? Forcing his own agenda down the throats of the laity?

These things are the abominations that we are supposed to be sighing and crying for.

The church is an army. There is an order to the army. There is the Commander in chief, then the secretary of defense, then the generals, then the Captains and so on.

Does the General have the same responsibilities as a Captain?

We all have been given a role to serve in the church, the question is, are you going to listen to the Commander in cheif, or are you going to be courtmartialed?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163393
03/14/14 10:06 PM
03/14/14 10:06 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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When Paul said that a Bishop (Overseer)is supposed to be;

One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)1 Timothy 3:4-5

Doesn't this not directly imply that the way the overseer's home is governed is directly applicable to the governance of the church?

And the same word is used for women to be in subjection to their husbands. Are you saying that Paul is not saying children should be in subjection their fathers? Are you going to free the kids from the tyrany of adult supervision? That is the mindset of the world and that is exactly what is happening in the church in America right now.

In another local church they had what was called "crowded room" where they let the kids set up loud guitar amps and drums on the stage where the altar for the communion was pushed up against the back wall and the singer would stand where the sermon was given, and totally get wicked in their music without any supervision, the pastor would come in and say a prayer then let the kids destroy the place in the sanctuary while he wrote his sermon in his office. This went on for three years until someone got pregnant and another girl was abused by a boy.

Do you think children should not be under subjection to their parents? Then why would Paul say the same words for women? Do you think he was trying to be mean? He said it was a command of God!


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163395
03/14/14 10:29 PM
03/14/14 10:29 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Look to the first sin of Eve and that is all the biblical proof you need that things would have been a lot better if the woman would have remained by the side of the husband. But this did not happen so what did God say as part of the curse?

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Genesis 3:16

Are you saying we are no longer under subjection to the curse? You do realize that the curse is a blessing to those who LISTEN to the commands of God don't you?

You are making the curse into a literal curse by trying to do away with the commands God established to govern the church. Women are coveting the position God gave to men, but God said they shalt rule over thee until the end for a blessing for the church. If you cannot see this it is because you do not accept the words of God and your are under the curse.

But men also make the curse into a literal curse by being oppressive to women, this is the problem with sin. But a true man of God will not opress the women under his authority. Get it? If the men are guided by the Holy Spirit the curse becomes a blessing. If the women are guided by the holy Spirit the family and church is stronger. They are used by the authority of God to bring blessings.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163396
03/14/14 10:42 PM
03/14/14 10:42 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Say a woman is smarter than the husband, which admittedly is the case more times than not these days...

If she is wise, she uses her authority to bring peace to the family and strengthens her husband through wise counsel. If he rejects this, that makes him a fool and the family will suffer. But if he accepts her counsel the family is blessed because the one in charge listened to the wisdom the wife received from God. There is no shame in this.

But There is shame for the foolish and wicked husband who will not receive the counsel and governs with an iron fist. The church should get involved then and give counsel, but if he will not listen then his motivations are exposed and he loses his ministry.

The wife should have never made a covenant with such a man and she pays for it the rest of her days. This is a warning against hasty mariages. Do you think she should break the command of God and divorce him so she can remarry? That is what a worldly woman would do, and she is no more under the guidance of the Holy Spirit than the man is.

Why are so many foolish people, who are almost a majority in the corporate church right now, saying lets do away with the guidance given by God and follow our own cousel?

****** STAFF EDIT ******

Last edited by Daryl; 03/20/14 12:31 AM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163397
03/14/14 10:51 PM
03/14/14 10:51 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Say a woman is smarter than the husband, which admittedly is the case more times than not these days...

If she is wise, she uses her authority to bring peace to the family and strengthens her husband through wise counsel. If he rejects this, that makes him a fool and the family will suffer. But if he accepts her counsel the family is blessed because the one in charge listened to the wisdom the wife received from God. There is no shame in this.

But There is shame for the foolish and wicked husband who will not receive the counsel and governs with an iron fist. The church should get involved then and give counsel, but if he will not listen then his motivations are exposed and he loses his ministry.

The wife should have never made a covenant with such a man and she pays for it the rest of her days. This is a warning against hasty mariages. Do you think she should break the command of God and leave him? That is what a worldly woman would do, and she is no more under the guidance of the Holy Spirit than the man is.

Why are so many foolish people, who are in control of the church right now, saying lets do away with the guidance given by God and follow our own cousel?

****** STAFF EDIT ******

****** STAFF EDIT ****** Here Peter quotes the ****** STAFF EDIT ****** prophet Joel:

Quote:
But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.

And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy."

God has ordained both men AND women equally to minister to His people. If you refuse the guidance HE has given, then say so; and we will understand.

///

Last edited by Daryl; 03/20/14 12:30 AM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: James Peterson] #163398
03/14/14 10:57 PM
03/14/14 10:57 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Say a woman is smarter than the husband, which admittedly is the case more times than not these days...

If she is wise, she uses her authority to bring peace to the family and strengthens her husband through wise counsel. If he rejects this, that makes him a fool and the family will suffer. But if he accepts her counsel the family is blessed because the one in charge listened to the wisdom the wife received from God. There is no shame in this.

But There is shame for the foolish and wicked husband who will not receive the counsel and governs with an iron fist. The church should get involved then and give counsel, but if he will not listen then his motivations are exposed and he loses his ministry.

The wife should have never made a covenant with such a man and she pays for it the rest of her days. This is a warning against hasty mariages. Do you think she should break the command of God and leave him? That is what a worldly woman would do, and she is no more under the guidance of the Holy Spirit than the man is.

Why are so many foolish people, who are in control of the church right now, saying lets do away with the guidance given by God and follow our own cousel?

****** STAFF EDIT ******

****** STAFF EDIT ****** Here Peter quotes the ****** STAFF EDIT ****** prophet Joel:

Quote:
But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.

And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy."

God has ordained both men AND women equally to minister to His people. If you refuse the guidance HE has given, then say so; and we will understand.

///


To minister yes, to prophesy yes, to govern NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

So you think one text in scripture superceeds others?

This text from Joel is in perfect harmony with Paul's writings if you are led by the Spirit, ****** STAFF EDIT ******

Mrs White received the promise of Joel and her husband James was great man who governed his family in righteousenss, and his wife SUBMITTED to his authority completely unless he was not being guided by the spirit of truth. Then and only then would Mrs White rebuke her husband in the authority of God as a prophet.

****** STAFF EDIT ******

Last edited by Daryl; 03/20/14 12:26 AM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163406
03/15/14 06:07 AM
03/15/14 06:07 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Dedication, why are the names of women and children not counted among the number?

What number are you talking about?

Did you realize that in Paul's letters he personally addresses many women by name ?

of the 28 people Paul greeted in Romans 16, ten of them were women and he commended their ministries more often than he commend men in that list. These commendations may indicate his sensitivity to the opposition women undoubtedly faced for their ministry and are remarkable, given the prejudice against women’s ministry that existed in Paul’s culture.

Quote:
16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a deacon of the church which is at Cenchrea:
16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she has need of you: for she has been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
16:8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
16:9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' [household].
16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the [household] of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
16:12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
16:14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.




I told you before that I am not pushing for women to be ordained as ministers, because I see it is a "power struggle" to be president, not just to minister within the church.

But many of these arguments that antiWO people put forth ARE NOT SCRIPTURAL, but rather have been the twisting of scripture in order to subject and subdue women.

Many of the arguments are based on TRADITION -- a tradition, not on God's will or "order" at all.



Originally Posted By: JamesonofThunder
Do you think God is a mysoganist? Or do you think the apostles were only being influenced by the traditions of the day?

I think people are reading their writings incorrectly.
The apostles were way ahead of their culture in granting women roles within the church.

Jesus broke quite a few "traditional rules" in His relationships with women, and elevating them as equally worthy to enter into conversation with Himself and to sit at his feet (a position disciples would take).

Women travelled with Jesus, just like the disciples did. Something that was NOT common in their culture. No they weren't the specially elected 12, but they were still disciples travelling with Him as He went about His ministry.

Some of them are also named,
Mary called Magdalene, Joanna the wife of Chuza, Susanna, and many others (Luke 8:2,3)




Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
In other words are you saying that Paul was not being inspired to say these things are the law of God?

Of course he was inspired, but people have tended to wrest his sayings to their own understanding.


Like the verse:
"Everything is lawful for me.... in 1 Corinthians 6:12 and the first part of verse 13.

How often have I heard that verse recited by someone who thinks that it really doesn't matter what we do as long as it is in moderation and it doesn't control us?
BUT that understanding is in contradiction to what Paul said in other verses.
It wasn't until I realized Paul was quoting and refuting gnostic teachings in those verses that it all started making perfect sense. Before it seemed like Paul was constantly contradicting himself.

The same with 1 Cor. 14 and the command uttered THREE TIMES in those verses, that women must be silent in church, must not speak, its a shame for them to speak. There's no way one can read those verses as the inspired command and still allow any woman to voice anything in church.
Yet, Paul in other verses allows women to speak in church.

It only makes sense that he is rejecting that saying which OTHERS were saying. OTHERS were saying "women must be silent in church". Paul quotes their impassioned desire to silence all women and counters it by writing, "What? -- Did the Word of God come only to you [men]?

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Why was such a strong injunction placed upon the disciples that ONLY widdows over the age of 60 were to be deacons, and why they were the only women to be counted among the number? Why did Paul say the younger widows were to be excluded?


What?
No --
Reread 1 Timothy 5

Paul is talking about the church financially SUPPORTING widows.
That means -- giving them money with which to live. (Compare with Acts 6:1)

According to his advice --Widows who have relatives should not be supported by the church, their relatives should be providing for them.
Basically Paul is telling families to take care of their own relatives. Younger widows are to go back to their parents and help them or to marry and raise a family so they have something to do and wouldn't be living in idle ease (on church money) and getting into trouble.

Only truly destitute widows -- older widows who have proven their dedication to serving the Lord, and have no one else to support them, should be placed on the church list for financial assistance.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163408
03/15/14 06:34 AM
03/15/14 06:34 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: dedication

Originally Posted By: Jamesonofthunder

My point was that women are to be under subjection to men in the church, which IS biblical!


And I don't agree with that point. Christ is the head of the church, not men. Women are not to be in subjection to men in the church.

Do you realize how many women have been sexually as well as spiritually abused because of that false teaching? Thousands upon thousands, way more than your example of one woman who turned out to be a lesbian. A lot of male ministers have turned out to be homosexuals as well.


Here again is the same argument you guys always run to. You always say "Look how many women have been abused under these guidelines".

I have said over and over that the abuses of men are no excuse not to follow the commands of God.

You said "I don't agree with that point. Christ is the head of the church, not men. Women are not to be in subjection to men in the church."

But 1 Corinthians 11:3 says; "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

You just in essence said you don't believe that this is inspired?



MY BIBLE says women are to be submissive to their OWN husbands.
No where does my bible say women are to be in subjection to all other men.
Women are no more under subjection to ecclesiastical leaders than men are.


Quote:
1 Corinthians 11:3 says; "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.


In Cor. 11:3 do you see the word "THE" the man -- "the woman" singular. One man, one woman -- as in husband and wife.
It's not saying ALL men in the church.
And Eph. plainly says "OWN" husband, not all men.

Husbands are to love and protect their wives, and wives are to respect and listen to their husbands. The husband is the head in his family.

BOTH husband and wife are to respect and listen to their pastor, to support and encourage him, but they are not to be IN SUBJECTION to the pastor.
The text says CHRIST is the head of the church. We are to be in subjection to Him.

This idea of subjection to ecclesiastical figure heads that call themselves "father", is a purely Catholic doctrine -- this being in subjection to or (ruled over) by the men in ecclesiastical leadership positions. In fact I was just browsing through a book earlier this week written by a Catholic priest on ecumenical unity. One of his points -- people follow their pastor so get the pastors of the various churches on board and the sheep will follow. Right into the wolf's den, I might add.

The local church is to be run by the board members composed of men and women praying together and deciding on church issues together, not by a kingly power that thinks to subject the membership under himself.





Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163412
03/15/14 02:10 PM
03/15/14 02:10 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
MY BIBLE says women are to be submissive to their OWN husbands. No where does my bible say women are to be in subjection to all other men. Women are no more under subjection to ecclesiastical leaders than men are.
I have argued the same point! There are more than just jsot that take issue with this on MSABOL. The whole issue of clergy and laity is at issue. See:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=163316#Post163316


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: APL] #163435
03/15/14 09:53 PM
03/15/14 09:53 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: dedication
MY BIBLE says women are to be submissive to their OWN husbands. No where does my bible say women are to be in subjection to all other men. Women are no more under subjection to ecclesiastical leaders than men are.
I have argued the same point! There are more than just jsot that take issue with this on MSABOL. The whole issue of clergy and laity is at issue. See:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=163316#Post163316


This is what I've seen as well.
Whether or not women are actually ordained isn't my concerned, we have plenty of freedom now to witness for the Lord.

But the elevation of the clergy to an authority to rule over the church is redefining the role of the pastor to match the role of the priest in the Catholic church.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163444
03/16/14 12:34 AM
03/16/14 12:34 AM
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"Eve was told of the sorrow and pain that must be her portion. “Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” God had made her the equal of Adam. But sin brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of one or the other. Eve had been the first in transgression. By her solicitation Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. Man’s abuse of the supremacy thus given him has too often rendered the lot of woman bitter and her life a burden. {EP 27.4}

****** STAFF EDIT ******

"Every family is a church, over which the parents preside. The first consideration of the parents should be to work for the salvation of their children. When the father (priest) and mother (teacher) as priest and teacher of the family take their position fully on the side of Christ, a good influence will be exerted in the home. And this sanctified influence will be felt in the church and will be recognized by every believer. Because of the great lack of piety and sanctification in the home, the work of God is greatly hindered. No man can bring into the church an influence that he does not exert in his home life and in his business relations.3 {CG 549.1}

"Morning and evening the father, as priest of the household, should confess to God the sins committed by himself and his children through the day. Those sins which have come to his knowledge and also those which are secret, of which God’s eye alone has taken cognizance, should be confessed. This rule of action, zealously carried out by the father when he is present or by the mother when he is absent, will result in blessings to the family.5 {AH 212.1}

"Those who have too little courage to reprove wrong, or who through indolence or lack of interest make no earnest effort to purify the family or the church of God, are held accountable for the evil that may result from their neglect of duty. We are just as responsible for evils that we might have checked in others by exercise of parental or pastoral authority, as if the acts had been our own.10 {CG 235.4}

****** STAFF EDIT ******

Last edited by Daryl; 03/19/14 11:56 PM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163462
03/16/14 06:27 PM
03/16/14 06:27 PM
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Dedication, you have provided food for thought. Well done.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163532
03/18/14 11:00 AM
03/18/14 11:00 AM
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MOD HAT ON!!!!!

Thread closed for Admin review.

MOD HAT OFF!!!!!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163577
03/20/14 12:57 AM
03/20/14 12:57 AM
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ADMIN HAT ON!!!!!

As I did a lot of thread cleaning and either removed or edited a lot of posts, I decided to re-open this thread.

ADMIN HAT ON!!!!!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #163631
03/23/14 12:21 AM
03/23/14 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.

I think the Greek word is much more cohesive than the English usages have come to be. We think of "minister" as an elevated position. But the word is more synonymous with the likes of "servant." Let the Bible explain itself, rather than imposing modern meanings upon ancient words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This is just what I have been saying. This is the reason why terms like minister, servant, and deacon, are almost like synonyms. One reason why I have such a difficulty understanding why certain people regard themselves as conservatives, and yet, perhaps reluctantly, agree that deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

Why should we today invent such distinctions that were unknown to Paul, just to invent a strange doctrine to make it possible to ordain some and not others?


Paul has been quoted as calling for Deacons and Elders to be a man of one wife, etc... So, Paul was aware that women should never be considered a Priest. Consequently, not a preacher of the Gospel. 1 Cor. 9:13-14.

Paul was also aware of what he said in 1 Cor. 11:1-16 when he simply stated that "man is head of the woman" in the "churches of God".

As far as deaconess is concerned; a deaconess is under the supervision of pastors and elders and therefore is ordained to a certain ministry. A deaconess is not the same as a Pastor or Elder! All these efforts to "universalize" all these positions is grossly unBiblical.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #163632
03/23/14 12:27 AM
03/23/14 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.


Or governed by a strict order by the King, like in the KJV, to be certain the new Bible is fully in accordance with the doctrines established by papacy and inherited by the Church of England. . . and followed with waggling tails by all of those who believe this to be the only possible truth.

Actually the translators of KJV also followed how this and several other words had already been translated earlier with the approval of the establishment. This is by many regarded as the only true conservatism, conserved by tradition.


Well, the NKJV was not governed by a king and neither are greek and hebrew lexicons. So, the Bible is not polluted by culture, kings or tradition over the ages. The RCC believes that. It is true languages change over time and having the greek and hebrew languages available addresses that problem so we can trust the sure Word of God.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #163638
03/23/14 05:29 AM
03/23/14 05:29 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy

Well, the NKJV was not governed by a king and neither are greek and hebrew lexicons. So, the Bible is not polluted by culture, kings or tradition over the ages. The RCC believes that. It is true languages change over time and having the greek and hebrew languages available addresses that problem so we can trust the sure Word of God.

The Bible isn't polluted by culture, but peoples interpretations are polluted by culture or lack of understanding culture. And those interpretations have crept into scripture and the understanding thereof.

I fully agree we have the Greek and we need to look for the true meaning there when issues arise.

It's amazing what I've found lately.

If people would just take the time to study what Paul wrote, they will find out that they are using Paul's words to defend what Paul opposed.

Since digging under all the traditions heaped upon women and attributed to Paul, I have found truths hidden in Paul's writings about women that are quite different from the usual presentations, and very much in line with ideal relationships in family and church, that fit with his other writings.



Probably if his true meaning had been known and followed throughout Christian history we wouldn't have the radical women's movements (it won't be needed) and we would have men understanding true qualities of manhood, instead of the conquer or be conquered mentality.

It's just too bad that these revelations of what Paul was really saying are coming out when two camps are at war -- and scriptural wars always end up with people going off on opposite poles and shooting each other down without listening to what they are actually saying.


Yes, to understand anything written, one must have some knowledge as to WHY it was written, in order to get the true meaning of WHAT was written. And to learn, one has to understand something about the prevalent customs and conditions that existed at the time of writing.


There is nothing new in this method of interpretation.
Adventists have used it since the beginning.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #163639
03/23/14 06:31 AM
03/23/14 06:31 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy


Paul has been quoted as calling for Deacons and Elders to be a man of one wife, etc... So, Paul was aware that women should never be considered a Priest. Consequently, not a preacher of the Gospel. 1 Cor. 9:13-14.

Again this is my main concern -- why do people think men are called or ordained to be "priests" in the Christian church.

Christ is our Priest -- no man or woman is called to be a priest in the church.

We don't need any human intercessor to come before the throne of grace, for we are all given that priestly privilege of approaching God through Jesus Christ.

To take Paul's counsel in 1 Cor. 9:13-14 that just like those working in a temple received pay, so now preachers should receive some pay, DOES NOT MAKE THEM PRIESTS or transfer any priestly rites upon them.

EGW writes quite a bit that women who devote time working for the Lord, should be paid for their work just like men, but that doesn't make the priest either.



A deacon or elder is NOT a priest.

The word of "deacons" is "diakonos"
Paul uses that word 22 times.

In the KJV Paul's use of the word is translated as
"deacon" 3X
"minister(s)" 18x
And "servant" 1x

And guess where it is translated as "servant".
Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant G1249 of the church which is at Cenchrea:

The whole structure of that verse follows the same pattern as other verses where it is translated as deacon or minister which shows the translation should be "deacon" here as well, not "servant" of the church. But the hierarchical mindset of the translators just could not bring themselves to grant her that word.

A minister or deacon (diakonos) is NOT a priest.
They are "servant leaders" IN the churches.

An "elder" simply means an older person.
In the OT and in the Jewish system, the "elders" were regarded for their greater experience and wisdom and they would often sit in the city gates giving counsel and helping to solve problems people would bring to them -- etc.

Paul asks Timothy to ordain elders -- probably as deacons or bishops.

The Greek word is "presbyteros" = elder
Paul also used the word to describe "elder women" in 1 Tim. 2:5


The word "bishop" episkoposis used four times --
Bishop is more of an "overseer".



Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163712
03/26/14 03:04 AM
03/26/14 03:04 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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The NUMBER!!!!

1 Timothy 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man. 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

You think having damnation is a good thing? Hey let's have some damnation! They were not to be accounted among the NUMBER because they would go find a husband and then there would be TWO HEADS in the family.

It's all in the number.

Numbers 1:22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war.

Who was numbered in scripture?

Only the head of the household was ever numbered. When Jesus gave the sermon on the mount the MEN were numbered.

Matthew 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Only the head of the household was numbered. So a sixty year old widow who's children were grown and gone, and who was dedicated to serving the Lord, could be counted among the number because they were beyond the age of having children or wanting to be married again. That is why the younger widow was never to be brought into the NUMBER.

"He who is engaged in the work of the gospel ministry must be faithful in his family life. It is as essential that as a father he should improve the talents God has given him for the purpose of making the home a symbol of the heavenly family, as that in the work of the ministry, he should make use of his God-given powers to win souls for the church. As the priest in the home, and as the ambassador of Christ in the church, he should exemplify in his life the character of Christ. He must be faithful in watching for souls as one that must give an account. In his service there must be seen no carelessness and inattentive work. God will not serve with the sins of men who have not a clear sense of the sacred responsibility involved in accepting a position as pastor of a church. He who fails to be a faithful, discerning shepherd in the home, will surely fail of being a faithful shepherd of the flock of God in the church.—Manuscript Releases 6:49. {PaM 88.3}

Woa to anyone who tries to change this!

"The great Head of the church has given talents to the company of believers. He has given his Word to mold the character, and his Spirit to bring all things to their remembrance. He desires his people to bring into their work the true principles of missionary effort. Many of the Lord’s servants are numbered with those of whom John wrote, “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.” Those who are left to plant the standard in new places are to have a keen, sanctified interest in every plan which is related, directly or indirectly, to the great work of warning the world. Those who have stood in positions of trust, faithful men who have been led and guided by God, are to thank him for his molding, fashioning power. They are to carry his work onward and upward to perfect accomplishment. They are to move with careful, prayerful consideration, lest they mar the influence of the work by changing the order which the Lord has said should be followed. As they advance, step by step, they are to mind the same things, to advance in the same lines, that the truth may never be dishonored or lose its sacred, holy influence in the sight of the world. {GCB July 1, 1900, Art. B, par. 21}

This is what being a part of the REMNANT is!


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163716
03/26/14 02:36 PM
03/26/14 02:36 PM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
The NUMBER!!!!

1 Timothy 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man. 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

You think having damnation is a good thing? Hey let's have some damnation! They were not to be accounted among the NUMBER because they would go find a husband and then there would be TWO HEADS in the family.

It's all in the number.

Numbers 1:22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war.

Who was numbered in scripture?

Only the head of the household was ever numbered. When Jesus gave the sermon on the mount the MEN were numbered.

Matthew 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Only the head of the household was numbered. So a sixty year old widow who's children were grown and gone, and who was dedicated to serving the Lord, could be counted among the number because they were beyond the age of having children or wanting to be married again. That is why the younger widow was never to be brought into the NUMBER.

"He who is engaged in the work of the gospel ministry must be faithful in his family life. It is as essential that as a father he should improve the talents God has given him for the purpose of making the home a symbol of the heavenly family, as that in the work of the ministry, he should make use of his God-given powers to win souls for the church. As the priest in the home, and as the ambassador of Christ in the church, he should exemplify in his life the character of Christ. He must be faithful in watching for souls as one that must give an account. In his service there must be seen no carelessness and inattentive work. God will not serve with the sins of men who have not a clear sense of the sacred responsibility involved in accepting a position as pastor of a church. He who fails to be a faithful, discerning shepherd in the home, will surely fail of being a faithful shepherd of the flock of God in the church.—Manuscript Releases 6:49. {PaM 88.3}

Woa to anyone who tries to change this!

"The great Head of the church has given talents to the company of believers. He has given his Word to mold the character, and his Spirit to bring all things to their remembrance. He desires his people to bring into their work the true principles of missionary effort. Many of the Lord’s servants are numbered with those of whom John wrote, “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.” Those who are left to plant the standard in new places are to have a keen, sanctified interest in every plan which is related, directly or indirectly, to the great work of warning the world. Those who have stood in positions of trust, faithful men who have been led and guided by God, are to thank him for his molding, fashioning power. They are to carry his work onward and upward to perfect accomplishment. They are to move with careful, prayerful consideration, lest they mar the influence of the work by changing the order which the Lord has said should be followed. As they advance, step by step, they are to mind the same things, to advance in the same lines, that the truth may never be dishonored or lose its sacred, holy influence in the sight of the world. {GCB July 1, 1900, Art. B, par. 21}

This is what being a part of the REMNANT is!

Let's not twist the scriptures (the Holy Bible). God said, and I quote, "on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy." (Acts 2:18)

If then God declares that in the Kingdom, there is neither male nor female but all are one in Him, who are you to change His commandment and seek to teach men so? Repent, for I perceive that your heart is not right with God. Is it not written as well that theere is neither Jew nor Gentile in the Kingdom? And in this you rejoice for God has made you a priest among His people, you who were once cut off from the commonwealth of Israel and could not approach to serve in the Temple.

Do not seek now to suppress the people of God, lest he come against you in fiery judgment.

///

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163720
03/26/14 03:22 PM
03/26/14 03:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Jesus is the Head of the Church. The rest of us are mere members. Jesus gifts us according to the needs of the Church. He raises up men, women, and children to lead and serve the Church. Whether or not we choose to lay hands on them is of little consequence. It doesn't change the fact Jesus Himself appointed them to serve.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163727
03/27/14 12:09 AM
03/27/14 12:09 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #163729
03/27/14 02:59 AM
03/27/14 02:59 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Paul's writings are being totally misapplied.

I think we need to study them more carefully.

Consider Aquila and Priscilla. Aquila is NEVER mentioned alone as a worker for God, his wife Priscilla is always mentioned with him. She was a spiritual leader working right beside her husband in both spiritual witnessing and tentmaking.


Quote:
"Soon after his arrival at Corinth, Paul found "a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla." These were "of the same craft" with himself..... In Ephesus, as in Corinth, the apostle was cheered by the presence of Aquila and Priscilla, who had accompanied him on his return to Asia at the close of his second missionary journey. {AA 351.1}

He (Paul) and Aquila and Priscilla had more than one prayer-and-praise meeting with those associated with them in tent-making. 355

Aquila and Priscilla had accompanied him to Ephesus, and he left them there to carry on the work that he had begun.--AA 269

Aquila and Priscilla were not called to give their whole time to the ministry of the gospel, yet these humble laborers were used by God to show Apollos the way of truth more perfectly. AA 355.
While in Ephesus, Apollos "began to speak boldly in the synagogue." Among his hearers were Aquila and Priscilla, who, perceiving that he had not yet received the full light of the gospel, "took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly." Through their teaching he obtained a clearer understanding of the Scriptures, and became one of the ablest advocates of the Christian faith.--The Acts of the Apostles, p. 270

Apollos . . . had received the highest Grecian culture, and was a scholar and an orator . . . . Aquila and Priscilla listened to him, and saw that his teachings were defective. He had not a thorough knowledge of the mission of Christ, His resurrection and ascension, and of the work of His Spirit, the Comforter which He sent down to remain with His people during His absence. They accordingly sent for Apollos, and the educated orator received instruction from them with grateful surprise and joy. Through their teachings he obtained a clearer understanding of the Scriptures, and became one of the ablest defenders of the Christian church. Thus a thorough scholar and brilliant orator learned the way of the Lord more perfectly from the teachings of a Christian man and woman whose humble employment was that of tentmaking (LP 119)

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: dedication] #163731
03/27/14 04:06 AM
03/27/14 04:06 AM
dedication  Online Content
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We need to look at a few words in greater detail.

Ephesians 5

This scripture has been cited time and again as proof that men must rule over women. But is that what Paul is saying?

SUBMIT

5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

The word "submit" appears three times
--submit one to another
--wives submit to own husband
--church submit to Christ

What is the meaning of the original word translated "submit"?
Some say it means "obey".

So does verse 21 tell us to obey one another? If "submit" means "obey" it would have to apply to verse 21 as well.

In the Greek there is a word that means "be in obedient subject to", and that word is "peitharcheo". It contains the root "arch" which carries the meaning of "rule over".

But Paul isn't using that Greek word here, instead he uses "hupotasso" in the imperative form. Thus he is requesting or appealing to wives to voluntarily support their own husbands, to be responsive to their own husbands, to respect their husbands.

He is not commanding husbands to rule over their wives.
His appeal to the husbands is to love their wives.

LOVE

The Greek
has four distinct words for love:
agape -- godly love,
éros -- passionate love
philía, -- friendship, affection
storgē -- tolerant love, or love of parent for child

The English allows "love" to mean any of the above, but the Greek word Paul chose is "agape" -- husbands are to love their wives with a love that's not merely based on emotion or affection, but in a self-sacrificing way.

Actually the two words "hupotasso" and agape both imply giving up one's own interests and caring and serving the other.

So what Paul is saying is that BOTH husbands and wives are give up their own self interests in caring and serving the other.
The wife, with respect for her own husband, and the husband with godly love for his wife.

The RULERSHIP concept is not part of this.


1Pe 5:5

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves G5293 unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject G5293 one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163751
03/28/14 06:06 AM
03/28/14 06:06 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: dedication] #172988
05/03/15 11:33 AM
05/03/15 11:33 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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I would consider a pastor to be on the same level as a priest in these days. The Temple service doesn't exist on the earth today but those benefits have been transferred to the pastors , I believe.

Alchemy

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #172989
05/03/15 11:37 AM
05/03/15 11:37 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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I know "headship" is a big deal in these discussions and I find a lot of pride in those who support WOPE in the way they treat this issue.

If we could just read 1 Corinthians 11:1-16, especially the early part, we read Jesus has a head. The Father is the head of Christ! Headship is a holy institution that shouldn't be trifled with.

Alchemy

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #172997
05/03/15 05:35 PM
05/03/15 05:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Headship is just one aspect of the body of Christ. The body consists of many parts. The head is not more important than the foot. And the foot is not more important than the head. Each part is equally important. Men and women are equally important. Children are equally important.

1 Corinthians 12

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: dedication] #194136
06/10/21 02:03 AM
06/10/21 02:03 AM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Originally Posted by dedication
...

LOVE

The Greek
has four distinct words for love:
agape -- godly love,
éros -- passionate love
philía, -- friendship, affection
storgē -- tolerant love, or love of parent for child

...
That may work in a 'lexicon', but it doesn't work in the Bible (KJB, GNT TR).

Please take the Agape/Phileo test (and if you take it honestly, you will fail it):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OsSIGY6xj8



I have all the evidence, from scripture (KJB), to demonstrate what is presented in the video is truth (Watch the entire video, or if you want to jump straight to the test, go to time index: 00:47:52). Agape and Phileo are used interchangeably with no distinction in scripture, as are many other words for the same items (sheep, baskets, creation, etc), verbs (feed), emotions, etc.

Last edited by Matthew 10vs8; 06/10/21 02:05 AM.
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