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Re: Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way. [Re: dedication] #146248
10/24/12 10:12 AM
10/24/12 10:12 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
We were all born with the carnal nature. We must be born again (John 3) The carnal nature is enmity towards God and cannot please God (Romans 8) We must be born again, renewed, transformed by the Holy spirit.

Christ was born perfect. His was the "born again" nature from the beginning. We are not to bring Christ down to our level, He will lift us up to His level through the born again experience.

We are totally incapable of living according to God's righteousness. We can only live it when we die to the old nature and rise with Christ in newness of life with Holy spirit filling our lives.



"A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, and heart, and soul. The apostle says, "And we have the mind of Christ." Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power. . . . {EGW in Reflecting Christ 303.4}


" Our Lord was tempted as man is tempted. He was capable of yielding to temptations, as are human beings. His finite nature was pure and spotless,... But here we must not become in our ideas common and earthly, and in our perverted ideas we must not think that the liability of Christ to yield to Satan's temptations degraded His humanity and He possessed the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man.... Christ's perfect humanity is the same that man may have through connection with Christ. [16MR 181-182}


This is a beautiful picture of Jesus Christ and His work. He was without the propensities of sin that every other child is born with, and yet his human flesh was degenerated like other people in his day through 4,000 years of sin. The age was no longer close to a thousand years.

It means so much to study the final weeks of Jesus on earth. On the cross it was His human nature that died. His divinity did not die. It was divinity that brought Him back to life. And through Him divinity has to see us through.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way. [Re: dedication] #146285
10/25/12 07:58 PM
10/25/12 07:58 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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So none of you believe in the words of the Spirit of Prophecy when she said through the Spirit of God that...

"In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God’s assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2}

You guys are proving that you don't really know the truth here. Be careful how you respond.

"In his human nature, he perfected a character after the divine similitude. By a life of perfect obedience to every requirement of God, he procured redemption for all who will be obedient.

Yes, He had the character of God, but He also partook of the nature of man. In this it means He had to be proven in character just like every man who ever lived had to be proven in devotion. Even before Adam had sinned he had to be proven, or go through a test of loyalty.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way. [Re: Johann] #146286
10/25/12 08:23 PM
10/25/12 08:23 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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"With deep earnestness the mother of Jesus watched the unfolding of His powers, and beheld the impress of perfection upon His character. With delight she sought to encourage that bright, receptive mind. Through the Holy Spirit she received wisdom to co-operate with the heavenly agencies in the development of this child, who could claim only God as His Father. {DA 69.1}
From the earliest times the faithful in Israel had given much care to the education of the youth. The Lord had directed that even from babyhood the children should be taught of His goodness and His greatness, especially as revealed in His law, and shown in the history of Israel. Song and prayer and lessons from the Scriptures were to be adapted to the opening mind. Fathers and mothers were to instruct their children that the law of God is an expression of His character, and that as they received the principles of the law into the heart, the image of God was traced on mind and soul. Much of the teaching was oral; but the youth also learned to read the Hebrew writings; and the parchment rolls of the Old Testament Scriptures were open to their study. {DA 69.2}
In the days of Christ the town or city that did not provide for the religious instruction of the young was regarded as under the curse of God. Yet the teaching had become formal. Tradition had in a great degree supplanted the Scriptures. True education would lead the youth to “seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him.” Acts 17:27. But the Jewish teachers gave their attention to matters of ceremony. The mind was crowded with material that was worthless to the learner, and that would not be recognized in the higher school of the courts above. The experience which is obtained through a personal acceptance of God’s word had no place in the educational system. Absorbed in the round of externals, the students found no quiet hours to spend with God. They did not hear His voice speaking to the heart. In their search after knowledge, they turned away from the Source of wisdom. The great essentials of the service of God were neglected. The principles of the law were obscured. That which was regarded as superior education was the greatest hindrance to real development. Under the training of the rabbis the powers of the youth were repressed. Their minds became cramped and narrow. {DA 69.3}
The child Jesus did not receive instruction in the synagogue schools. His mother was His first human teacher. From her lips and from the scrolls of the prophets, He learned of heavenly things. The very words which He Himself had spoken to Moses for Israel He was now taught at His mother’s knee. As He advanced from childhood to youth, He did not seek the schools of the rabbis. He needed not the education to be obtained from such sources; for God was His instructor. {DA 70.1}
The question asked during the Saviour’s ministry, “How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?” does not indicate that Jesus was unable to read, but merely that He had not received a rabbinical education. John 7:15. Since He gained knowledge as we may do, His intimate acquaintance with the Scriptures shows how diligently His early years were given to the study of God’s word. And spread out before Him was the great library of God’s created works. He who had made all things studied the lessons which His own hand had written in earth and sea and sky. Apart from the unholy ways of the world, He gathered stores of scientific knowledge from nature. He studied the life of plants and animals, and the life of man. From His earliest years He was possessed of one purpose; He lived to bless others. For this He found resources in nature; new ideas of ways and means flashed into His mind as He studied plant life and animal life. Continually He was seeking to draw from things seen illustrations by which to present the living oracles of God. The parables by which, during His ministry, He loved to teach His lessons of truth show how open His spirit was to the influences of nature, and how He had gathered the spiritual teaching from the surroundings of His daily life. {DA 70.2}
Thus to Jesus the significance of the word and the works of God was unfolded, as He was trying to understand the reason of things. Heavenly beings were His attendants, and the culture of holy thoughts and communings was His. From the first dawning of intelligence He was constantly growing in spiritual grace and knowledge of truth. {DA 70.3}
Every child may gain knowledge as Jesus did. As we try to become acquainted with our heavenly Father through His word, angels will draw near, our minds will be strengthened, our characters will be elevated and refined. We shall become more like our Saviour. And as we behold the beautiful and grand in nature, our affections go out after God. While the spirit is awed, the soul is invigorated by coming in contact with the Infinite through His works. Communion with God through prayer develops the mental and moral faculties, and the spiritual powers strengthen as we cultivate thoughts upon spiritual things. {DA 70.4}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way. [Re: Mountain Man] #146292
10/26/12 01:07 AM
10/26/12 01:07 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nevertheless, Jesus was born perfect, without the stain of sin upon His character. The sin He bore in His body never contaminated His character. Also, He never chose to sin, thus His character remained sinless. Moreover, Jesus became perfect by maturing daily in the fruits of the Spirit.
Again, depends on how you define "perfect". When Christ was born, did He have all knowledge? No. Luke 2:52 AKJV And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. Jesus developed a perfect character during His life: DA 762: The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character.

Christ took on the sins of the world, but NEVER participated in its sin. Again, EGW:
What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. {16MR 115.3}
There was not a drop of bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of the curse which He did not endure, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. {16MR 116.1}
By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way. [Re: APL] #146293
10/26/12 01:09 AM
10/26/12 01:09 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jsot
Weren't we all born without stain of sin?
Question - does a new born baby need a savior? Yes, or no?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way. [Re: APL] #146302
10/26/12 06:57 AM
10/26/12 06:57 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Brother Mt Man, if you will look at my original post I never said Jesus sinned neither in thought or action. But He was born with a human nature and still did not sin.

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jsot
Weren't we all born without stain of sin?
Question - does a new born baby need a savior? Yes, or no?


Yes they do.

You had the answer in the next sentence when I said " Weren't we all born without stain of sin? But the bible still says we are sinners even then."

John 3:6 (ESV) "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

"Christ, who knew not the least taint of sin or defilement, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. This was humiliation greater than finite man can comprehend. God was manifest in the flesh. He humbled Himself. What a subject for thought, for deep, earnest contemplation! So infinitely great that He was the Majesty of heaven, and yet He stooped so low, without losing one atom of His dignity and glory! He stooped to poverty and to the deepest abasement among men.—The Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898. {7ABC 453.4}

"The story of Bethlehem is an exhaustless theme. In it is hidden “the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God.” Romans 11:33. We marvel at the Saviour’s sacrifice in exchanging the throne of heaven for the manger, and the companionship of adoring angels for the beasts of the stall. Human pride and self-sufficiency stand rebuked in His presence. Yet this was but the beginning of His wonderful condescension. It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man’s nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. 8 {CSA 6.8}

Many people use this fact of being born into sin as an excuse to not making any headway in victory over sin...

"There are many who in their hearts murmur against God. They say, “We inherit the fallen nature of Adam, and are not responsible for our natural imperfections.” They find fault with God’s requirements, and complain that he demands what they have no power to give. Satan made the same complaint in heaven, but such thoughts dishonor God. And the Lord knoweth our thoughts afar off. He speaks to his people, saying, “O my people, what have I done unto thee? and wherein have I wearied thee? testify against me.” The complainers have an opportunity to bring their accusations against him; their Maker gives them an opportunity to speak. What charge have you to bring against Him that ruleth in the heavens? What have you to say against His dealings with you? What against His government? What against His law? If you have any excuse to offer for your neglect to comply with the conditions upon which your salvation is based, now make them known. If you have any excuse for sin, for impenitence, for covetousness, or for sensuality, you are permitted to give your reasons. Those who would justify themselves in wrongdoing, and lay the blame of their disobedience upon God, will be heard. They argue that they are born with strong passions and appetites, and are surrounded with objects that solicit to sin, and under such circumstances how is it just to condemn them? But God answers: “I did all that could be done for your forefather Adam; I gave him the noblest qualities and the highest powers; my requirements were light upon him. It was because he did not believe my word, did not choose to stand the simple test I imposed upon him, but believed the word of my enemy, that he fell from his holy estate. But in his fallen condition did I not send help? I sent my Son, who was equal with myself, that he might live an example upon earth, and die for man’s transgressions, that you might make no mistakes or failures in obtaining eternal life.” {ST August 29, 1892, par. 2}

Adam fell because he lost faith in the word of God, and to faith in the word we must be restored. We must believe the word of God to enter heaven or be under the guidance of parents who are justified and believe the word.

"Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature. Clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might associate with fallen humanity, He sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In His own character He displayed to the world the character of God.—The Review and Herald, December 15, 1896. {7ABC 452.6}

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #146303
10/26/12 07:16 AM
10/26/12 07:16 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Like I said before, the only advantage Jesus used in His victory over sin was the fact that He inherited the CHARACTER of His Father. This fact gave Him nobility of character inherently. But still, to be "perfected" as a man, to become the second Adam and fill the High Priestly position that Adam lost at his fall, Jesus needed to pass the test that Adam failed. This is what "perfected" the human nature of Jesus and restored man to the image of God through faith. The faith OF Jesus, who strengthens us by His faith and shows you perfect truth in His Spirit.

Our nature is fallen because of the fact that we are not born under the protective shield of the garment of the righteousness that covers those children born by parents who have not fallen.

Jesus was only fallen in this nature, in the association of having a 'corruptible' (not corrupted) body and mind.

The glory is, He not only came to restore man to "heavenly access status" forevermore, but we will become 'incorruptible' after probation ends. most people forget Adam was corruptible or under probation before his fall. The next life we become incorruptible and all un-fallen worlds also pass probation and become incorruptible with us.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #146304
10/26/12 07:22 AM
10/26/12 07:22 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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APL; I wanted to correct the statement you quoted because of the wording.

When I said "Weren't we all born without stain of sin?" it should be clarified that I meant "weren't we all born without a record of sin against us individually?" But this is still being born in a fallen condition because of our parents and their parents sin before us.

We were not born covered in the garment of light that Adam lost after sinning. Neither was Jesus. In fact He covered His glory with humanity so we could touch Him and hold Him.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way. [Re: dedication] #146518
11/02/12 07:40 PM
11/02/12 07:40 PM
C
Colin  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
We were all born with the carnal nature. We must be born again (John 3) The carnal nature is enmity towards God and cannot please God (Romans 8) We must be born again, renewed, transformed by the Holy spirit.


"Born with the carnal nature"? 'Carnal' is in Rom 8, yes, but we're born sinful, not carnal! smile We aren't born with a sinful character, after all, just a sinful heredity - that is the character of our ancestry. wink

I think you agree, dedication, as this is an easy confusion between carnal/sinful.

We do indeed need to be born from above, amen!
Quote:
Christ was born perfect. His was the "born again" nature from the beginning. We are not to bring Christ down to our level, He will lift us up to His level through the born again experience.

We are totally incapable of living according to God's righteousness. We can only live it when we die to the old nature and rise with Christ in newness of life with Holy spirit filling our lives.

Re: Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way. [Re: Colin] #146523
11/02/12 11:18 PM
11/02/12 11:18 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Question; why do the majority of scientists believe we were once beasts in our lineage; our Paleontology? Because without GOD the creator, we become lower than the beasts. They see it, and recognize without laws man is a mess and since they beklieve we evolved they see that state of 'carnality' as our beginning, which is the perfect mind trap of Satan, but in fact we were born better than we are now through Adam in the beginning. All the different possible DNA combinations were in him, including the DNA of Jesus. When Adam fell, Satan though it would be impossible for even God to correct the situation because of the depravity of man without a covering.

Satan rejoiced in being freed from the pit that held him and his angels captive...

until at the first altar the Holy angels showed Adam how to sacrifice. They showed him the plan of salvation in his mind, and Adam walked away covered with the skin of the lamb as a sign. This made Satan so angry. He knew then, Jesus was coming to get us.

Satan loves us to remain in confusion and degradation. He makes us feel comfortable there. He tempts us as he tempted Christ, and this is our test. The test of Adam, Can you stand? That is question. The only way off this rock, and the only way to live eternally is through Christ, He is the only man to live a sinless
life. So to Him we are to measure ourselves. When we see His humility it has a subduing effect on our souls if we truly love Him. If we don't we end up in the mob that came to get Him to stand trial.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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