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Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #150251
03/02/13 02:39 AM
03/02/13 02:39 AM
Daryl  Offline
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Do we need both rebirth and conversion?

Better yet, can the two be separated?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Daryl] #150275
03/02/13 03:38 PM
03/02/13 03:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The Bible describes rebirth and conversion beginning and ending together. However, nowadays people begin rebirth and conversion together (like normal) but they don't end together (like the Bible describes). Instead, they experience rebirth first and then they gradually complete the process of converting to obeying everything else Jesus commanded. For example, many people are endeared to Jesus and embrace Him as their personal Savior, that is, they experience rebirth (their heart is in harmony with Jesus). But they have not converted to the truth about the Sabbath, diet and dress reform, spiritualism, the mark of the beast, etc (their head is not completely in harmony with Jesus). Again, the Bible does not describe this kind of experience.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #150338
03/03/13 09:33 PM
03/03/13 09:33 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The Bible describes rebirth and conversion beginning and ending together. However, nowadays people begin rebirth and conversion together (like normal) but they don't end together (like the Bible describes). Instead, they experience rebirth first and then they gradually complete the process of converting to obeying everything else Jesus commanded. For example, many people are endeared to Jesus and embrace Him as their personal Savior, that is, they experience rebirth (their heart is in harmony with Jesus). But they have not converted to the truth about the Sabbath, diet and dress reform, spiritualism, the mark of the beast, etc (their head is not completely in harmony with Jesus). Again, the Bible does not describe this kind of experience.


This is an important process, and reconversion is - or should be - a daily experience.

Do we need to cut this out in stone? The process of sanctification starts immediately and does not close until glorification. But even at glorification the process continues, because there will never be a moment through all of eternity where we can manage on our own without Jesus Christ.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Johann] #150452
03/07/13 10:28 AM
03/07/13 10:28 AM
Johann  Offline
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Quote:
There should not be the faintest misgivings in regard to the perfect freedom from sinfulness in the human nature of Christ. Our faith must be an intelligent faith, looking unto Jesus in perfect confidence, in full and entire faith in the atoning sacrifice. This is essential that the soul may not be enshrouded in darkness. This holy Substitute is able to save to the uttermost, for He presented to the wondering universe perfect and complete humility in His human character, and perfect obedience to all the requirements of God. Divine power is placed upon man, that he may become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. This is why repenting, believing man can be made the righteousness of God in Him. {16MR 117.1}
The purity and holiness of Christ, the spotless righteousness of Him who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth, was heaven’s light in contrast with satanic darkness. In Him was a perpetual reproach upon all sin in a world of sensuality and sin. {16MR 117.2}


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Johann] #150462
03/07/13 03:33 PM
03/07/13 03:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Amen! The fruit of Jesus' sacrificial life, death, resurrection, and mediation is people who experience rebirth and conversion is God's appointed way.

Quote:
True reformation begins with soul cleansing. Our work for the fallen will achieve real success only as the grace of Christ reshapes the character and the soul is brought into living connection with God. {MH 180.1}

Christ lived a life of perfect obedience to God's law, and in this He set an example for every human being. The life that He lived in this world we are to live through His power and under His instruction. {MH 180.2}

In our work for the fallen the claims of the law of God and the need of loyalty to Him are to be impressed on mind and heart. Never fail to show that there is a marked difference between the one who serves God and the one who serves Him not. God is love, but He cannot excuse willful disregard for His commands. The enactments of His government are such that men do not escape the consequences of disloyalty. Only those who honor Him can He honor. Man's conduct in this world decides his eternal destiny. As he has sown, so he must reap. Cause will be followed by effect. {MH 180.3}

Nothing less than perfect obedience can meet the standard of God's requirement. He has not left His requirements indefinite. He has enjoined nothing that is not necessary in order to bring man into harmony with Him. We are to point sinners to His ideal of character and to lead them to Christ, by whose grace only can this ideal be reached. {MH 180.4}

The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

The Saviour overcame to show man how he may overcome. All the temptations of Satan, Christ met with the word of God. By trusting in God's promises, He received power to obey God's commandments, and the tempter could gain no advantage. To every temptation His answer was, "It is written." So God has given us His word wherewith to resist evil. Exceeding great and precious promises are ours, that by these we "might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4. {MH 181.1}

Bid the tempted one look not to circumstances, to the weakness of self, or to the power of temptation, but to the power of God's word. All its strength is ours. "Thy word," says the psalmist, "have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against Thee." "By the word of Thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer." Psalm 119:11; 17:4. {MH 181.2}

Talk courage to the people; lift them up to God in prayer. Many who have been overcome by temptation are humiliated by their failures, and they feel that it is in vain for them to approach unto God; but this thought is of the enemy's suggestion. When they have sinned, and feel that they cannot pray, tell them that it is then the time to pray. Ashamed they may be, and deeply humbled; but as they confess their sins, He who is faithful and just will forgive their sins and cleanse them from all unrighteousness. {MH 181.3}

Nothing is apparently more helpless, yet really more invincible, than the soul that feels its nothingness and relies wholly on the merits of the Saviour. By prayer, by the study of His word, by faith in His abiding presence, the weakest of human beings may live in contact with the living Christ, and He will hold them by a hand that will never let go. {MH 182.1}

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Daryl] #190467
08/11/19 02:03 PM
08/11/19 02:03 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted by Daryl
The thread title is "Do We Really Understand Conversion?"

What then is conversion?


Jesus said, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." Mat. 23:15

Conversion is a public expression of intent to follow a new order. Backsliding is the increasing tendency to return to an original state.

Paul's conversion from Judaism to Christianity was spectacular and firm. Judas, on the other hand, followed Jesus but the love of country kept pulling him back until he fell away so far that he betrayed the one who he claimed to be following into the hands of those to whom he had returned.

There is an ever present tension between conversion and backsliding in the human heart. But the one who loves God will forever turn to Him, again and again and again until the very end, reaching ever upwards against a downward spiral.

///

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Daryl] #190481
08/12/19 08:37 AM
08/12/19 08:37 AM
Daryl  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
What about the conversion Peter?

When did the conversion of Peter take place?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Daryl] #190507
08/13/19 02:12 PM
08/13/19 02:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
The "process of conversion" has a beginning and an end - converting and converted. Rebirth happens when people experience the process of conversion in God's appointed way, when they learn how to live in harmony with "all things whatsoever"Jesus commanded. At this point eternal life begins and then they spend all of eternity growing and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. Along the way, while here on Earth (before probation closes), they may (not will as though it is inevitable and unavoidable) neglect Jesus and sin. Sinning severs our relationship with Jesus, it separates us from Him, and while thus disconnected we are in jeopardy of damnation. We must embrace (activate) the gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess our sin, which gives God the legal right to restore the relationship our sin severed, which then frees us to resume where we left off abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature, growing in grace and maturing daily in the fruit of the Spirit. We do not, cannot sin while thus arranged.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Daryl] #190508
08/13/19 02:18 PM
08/13/19 02:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted by Daryl
When did the conversion of Peter take place?

Peter was converting to Jesus during the three years he labored with Him. But it wasn't until he fully embraced Jesus as his personal Savior did he finally complete the process of converting to Jesus - which happened after the resurrection of Jesus.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #190512
08/13/19 04:15 PM
08/13/19 04:15 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted by Mountain Man
Originally Posted by Daryl
When did the conversion of Peter take place?

Peter was converting to Jesus during the three years he labored with Him. But it wasn't until he fully embraced Jesus as his personal Savior did he finally complete the process of converting to Jesus - which happened after the resurrection of Jesus.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

The KJV uses the word "converted" in its archaic sense of "restored yourself, returned again to Me." The more modern translations uses English as we know it and gives the original sense for our age. You can see the whole list of translations here: https://biblehub.com/luke/22-32.htm

Peter was converted long before, for it was he who said to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Mat. 16:16 It was his public acknowledgment of his faith as opposed to everyone else saying that Jesus was "John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." v.14

The same applies when you agree to be baptized. That holy immersion in full view of the public atests to your conversion. Conversion does NOT mean that you are firmly entrenched and unshakable in your new found faith, or that you must wait for or work to reach such a point.

///

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