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Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? #148355
12/24/12 06:21 PM
12/24/12 06:21 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Early Christians protested the heathen day of worship. Mithra originally was an ancient god of Iran worshiped as a god of strength and war. By the first century, it was transformed into the leading sun god of the western world. Romans called him, Sol Invictus. Mithraism came complete with a cleverly conterfeited dying-rising savior, a special religious supper, a weekly holy day, and baptism of converts. It also included athletic feats of skill and war-like manliness. The fifth century western church ordered its celebration.

About the time of Christ, the days of the week were given names indicating which god ruled over it, with the most important god, Mithra, given the first day of the week, the day of the sun, or sun day. The week was known as the planetory week. Although the day's names were new, sun worship was not new but had been worshipped long before this time and was considered the earliest form of idolatry. Such is evidenced in the Bible.

Job 31:26 If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness;
27 And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand:
28 This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above.

Jer 43:12 And I will kindle a fire in the houses of the gods of Egypt; and he shall burn them, and carry them away captives: and he shall array himself with the land of Egypt, as a shepherd putteth on his garment; and he shall go forth from thence in peace.
13 He shall break also the images of Bethshemesh, that is in the land of Egypt; and the houses of the gods of the Egyptians shall he burn with fire.

(Bethshemesh: 1053 - house of the sun)

2Ki 21:3 For he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal, and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.
(grove: 842 - Asherah or Astarte, a Phoenician goddess)

2Ki 23:4 ¶ And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel.
(grove: 842 - Asherah or Astarte, a Phoenician goddess)
5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

2Ki 23:11 And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.

Eze 8:13 ¶ He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.

Zep 1:5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;


By the middle of the second century, Emperor Aurelian, whose mother was a priestess of the sun, made sun worship the official religion of the Roman empire. Priests of the templ of the Sun at Rome were called "pontiffs". The pagans called their god, "Lord Mithra" and his day of worship, "The Lord's Day". The Christians in Alexanderia and Rome tried to justify their worship of Mithra by saying this was the same Lord's day or Sabbath of the Bible.

Constantine, in 321 A.D. decreed the first Sunday Law commanding rest on "the Venerable Day of the Sun". At the time, Constantine, still a worshiper of Sol Invictus, was the "Pontifix Maximus", or the supreme pagan pontiff of the state religion.

While the celebrated day of Mithra was established for December 25, no date had been established by the middle of the third century for celebrating Jesus' birth. Various dates were presented for the official celebration of the birth of Jesus: January 2, January 6, March 21, April 18 or 19, and May 20 were among several. It wasn't until the fourth century that the commemoration of Christ's birth was included in the Feast of Epiphany on January 6 at most places. About 330 A.D., the church of Rome assigned December 25 as the celebration of the birth of Christ. Even though many Eastern churches kept other dates, by the end of the fourth century, the customs of Rome became universal.

Even though Rome stated the actual date of Christ's birth was unknown, various traditions made up explanations for the choice of the date. Without any reason given for Rome's choice of the date, one is left to consider if the date was chosen to inspire the people to turn from their worship of the sun to the worship of the Son.


The winter solstice occurs on December 21 with the first observable return of the sun being December 25 - "the birth of the sun god". This is the day Mithraists celebrated the birth of their god.

It was also the Roman feast of Saturnalia, which began on December 17 and lasted for 7 days with licentiousness and gambling and exchange of gifts such as candles to symbolize the increase of sunlight after the winter solstice. Many of the customs were transferred to the celebration of Christmas.

While attempts have been made to whitewash Mithra and morph it into some kind of Christian celebration, can any amount of whitewash remove the evil origins and intent? Given the origins of a pagan holiday, so evil and sinister, planned and designed by satan in an attempt to usurp the Creator God, should Christians have anything to do with such a holiday?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148365
12/24/12 09:07 PM
12/24/12 09:07 PM
dedication  Offline
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No, Christians should not celebrate Mithra.

Are you celebrating the fact that the days are now getting longer again as if nature were god, and worshipping the sun? or are you reflecting on Jesus, Who left the heavenly throne and took on humanity to bring salvation to the sin darkened world?

The incarnation and birth of Christ is a theme we should never renounce.

I have heard too many zealous Christians denouncing "the babe in a manger" as if any attention to that event belittled Christ and destroyed the judgment message.
It has caused me to realize this movement to remove a time to reflect on Christ's birth is not of God.

For years Christmas was a joyous time in our lives -- a time for family, a time to reflect on Christ's birth, a time to help those who had little. We all knew santa and that stuff was just a bunch of fairy tales trying to eclipse the real. The thought of worshipping the sun or a tree never even entered into our thoughts, any more than thinking to worship a big bouquet of flowers brought into the house. We knew the worldly partying and over indulgence was not what it was all about.

But lately it seems people LOVE to point out a lot of pagan history turning people away from the truth of the miracle of Christ's birth by bringing up all this pagan stuff.

I mean -- there are people who won't come to church in December because songs are being sung dealing with Christ's birth. Why would people think it wrong to sing these songs?
What event brought the angels of heaven to earth sing praises of joy over the hills of Bethlehem?

If a person looks at paganism not only will they shun the time, they will eventually also shun the whole virgin birth story.
And even the Sabbath -- as paganism made considerable effort to blacken Saturday.

The counterfeits abound -- Satan has planted counterfeits to try and eclipse every truth.

No don't worship any sun, moon or stars, but why throw out the real with the counterfeit?

Celebrate Christ's birth -- His taking the characteristics of humanity to be our brother and Savior.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #148370
12/24/12 11:16 PM
12/24/12 11:16 PM
Alpendave  Offline
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Well said Dedication. I see nothing wrong with taking a day that pagans intended for the celebration of a pagan deity and instead using it to reflect on the marvel of the incarnation. God created time and it is appropriate to celebrate God's goodness all the more whenever Satan attempts to draw us toward himself by claiming days for himself. One thing also to keep us safeguarded regarding holidays is to always remember God's Holy Day -- the 7th.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Alpendave] #148409
12/26/12 02:58 PM
12/26/12 02:58 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Dave Mullbock
Well said Dedication. I see nothing wrong with taking a day that pagans intended for the celebration of a pagan deity and instead using it to reflect on the marvel of the incarnation. God created time and it is appropriate to celebrate God's goodness all the more whenever Satan attempts to draw us toward himself by claiming days for himself. One thing also to keep us safeguarded regarding holidays is to always remember God's Holy Day -- the 7th.
And likewise we should worship on Sun day to celebrate the resurrection of our risen Lord. Even though pagans may celebrate the sun, we can celebrate the Son! It is all the more important to celebrate God's goodness on those days of evil.

No?

I think not! You two use the same arguments as the Constantine and the sunday keepers do. Christmas is very anti-Christian in general and even more so anti-Adventist in specifics. Shall we worship the evil one on the day of his making, the beginning of the enforcement of sunday laws, and the same one who will cause us to be killed? God forbid! You need way more whitewash and it will come up way short.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148417
12/26/12 05:02 PM
12/26/12 05:02 PM
dedication  Offline
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Sabbath, the 7th day is a holy day, blessed and hallowed by the Lord and set within the heart of the ten commandments asking us to remember.

There is nothing sacred or hallow about Dec. 25. In fact we have our family gatherings whenever all the family can get together which this year will be next week. We spent Dec. 25 getting the house ready for company!

It's not the day -- it's the season, and we do well to honour Christ's birth and reflect on the incarnation in a special way each year. During the Easter/Passover season we reflect in a special way on Christ's death and resurrection. We need seasons of special reflection on the great events of salvation history.

What is happening in too many of our churches is an element of outright hostility to the "babe in a manger" as if it were anti-Christian and pagan. So much so that all of December they refuse to come to church because they might have to hear the story or sing songs about it.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #148418
12/26/12 05:52 PM
12/26/12 05:52 PM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: EGW
The Day Not to Be Ignored.
Christmas is coming. May you all have wisdom to make it a precious season. Let the older church members unite, heart and soul, with their children in this innocent amusement and recreation, in devising ways and means to show true respect to Jesus by bringing to him gifts and offerings.{RH, December 9, 1884 par. 9}

--As the twenty-fifth of December is observed to commemorate the birth of Christ, as the children have been instructed by precept and example that this was indeed a day of gladness and rejoicing, you will find it a difficult matter to pass over this period without giving it some attention. It can be made to serve a very good purpose. {AH 478.1}
The youth should be treated very carefully. They should not be left on Christmas to find their own amusement in vanity and pleasure seeking, in amusements which will be detrimental to their spirituality. Parents can control this matter by turning the minds and the offerings of their children to God and His cause and the salvation of souls. {AH 478.2}
The desire for amusement, instead of being quenched and arbitrarily ruled down, should be controlled and directed by painstaking effort upon the part of the parents. Their desire to make gifts may be turned into pure and holy channels and made to result in good to our fellow men by supplying the treasury in the great, grand work for which Christ came into our world. Self-denial and self-sacrifice marked His course of action. Let it mark ours who profess to love Jesus because in Him is centered our hope of eternal life. {AH 478.3}

The Interchange of Gifts as Tokens of Affection.-- The holiday season is fast approaching with its interchange of gifts, and old and young are intently studying what they can bestow upon their friends as a token of affectionate remembrance. It is pleasant to receive a gift, however small, from those we love. It is an assurance that
we are not forgotten, and seems to bind us to them a little closer. . . . {AH 478.4}

It is right to bestow upon one another tokens of love and remembrance if we do not in this forget God, our best friend. We should make our gifts such as will prove a real benefit to the receiver. I would recommend such books as will be an aid in understanding the word of God or that will increase our love for its precepts. Provide something to be read during these long winter evenings. {AH 479.1}

Books for Children Are Recommended.--There are many who have not books and publications upon present truth. Here is a large field where money can be safely invested. There are large numbers of little ones who should be supplied with reading. ... The many trifles usually spent on candies and useless toys may be treasured up with which to buy these volumes. . . . {AH 479.2}

Let those who wish to make valuable presents to their children, grandchildren, nephews, and nieces procure for them the children's books mentioned. For young people the Life of Joseph Bates is a treasure; also the .. volumes of The Spirit of Prophecy. These volumes should be placed in every family in the land. God is giving light from heaven, and not a family should be without it.

Let the presents you shall make be of that order which will shed beams of light upon the pathway to heaven. {AH 479.3}

Jesus Not to Be Forgotten.--Brethren and sisters, while you are devising gifts for one another, I would remind you of our heavenly Friend, lest you should be unmindful of His claims. Will He not be pleased if we show that we have not forgotten Him? Jesus, the Prince of life, gave all to bring salvation within our reach. . . . He suffered even unto death, that He might give us eternal life. {AH 480.1}



Christmas--a Time to Honor God.--By the world the holidays are spent in frivolity and extravagance, gluttony and display. . . . But it is our privilege to depart from the customs and practices of this degenerate age; and instead of expending means merely for the gratification of the appetite or for needless ornaments or articles of clothing, we may make the coming holidays an occasion in which to honor and glorify God. {AH 480.3}

Christ should be the supreme object; but as Christmas has been observed, the glory is turned from Him to mortal man, whose sinful, defective character made it necessary for Him to come to our world.
481
{AH 480.4}
Jesus, the Majesty of heaven, the royal King of heaven, laid aside His royalty, left His throne of glory, His high command, and came into our world to bring to fallen man, weakened in moral power and corrupted by sin, aid divine. He clothed his divinity with humanity, that he might reach to the very depths of human woe and misery, to lift up fallen man. By taking upon himself man's nature, he raised humanity in the scale of moral value with God. These great themes are almost too high, too deep, too infinite, for the comprehension of finite minds. {AH 481.1}

Parents should keep these things before their children and instruct them, line upon line, precept upon precept, in their obligation to God--not their obligation to each other, to honor and glorify one another by gifts and offerings. {AH 481.2}

Turn Thoughts of the Children Into a New Channel.-- There are many things which can be devised with taste and cost far less than the unnecessary presents that are so frequently bestowed upon our children and relatives, and thus courtesy can be shown and happiness brought into the home. {AH 481.3}
Like the wise men of old, you may offer to God your best gifts and show by your offerings to Him that you appreciate His Gift to a sinful world. Set your children's thoughts running in a new, unselfish channel by inciting them to present offerings to God for the gift of His only-begotten Son.
482
{AH 481.4}
"Shall We Have a Christmas Tree?"-- Letters of inquiry have come to us asking, Shall we have a Christmas tree? Will it not be like the world? We answer, You can make it like the world if you have a disposition to do so, or you can make it as unlike the world as possible. There is no particular sin in selecting a fragrant evergreen and placing it in our churches, but the sin lies in the motive which prompts to action and the use which is made of the gifts placed upon the tree. {AH 482.1}

The tree may be as tall and its branches as wide as shall best suit the occasion; but let its boughs be laden with the golden and silver fruit of your beneficence, and present this to Him as your Christmas gift. Let your donations be sanctified by prayer. {AH 482.2}

Christmas and New Year celebrations can and should be held in behalf of those who are helpless. God is glorified when we give to help those who have large families to support. {AH 482.3}

A Tree Laden With Offerings Is Not Sinful.--Let not the parents take the position that an evergreen placed in the church for the amusement of the Sabbath school scholars is a sin, for it may be made a great blessing. Keep before their minds benevolent objects. In no case should mere amusement be the object of these gatherings. While there may be some who will turn these occasions into seasons of careless levity, and whose minds will not receive the divine impress, to other minds and characters
these seasons will be highly beneficial. I am fully satisfied that innocent substitutes can be devised for many gatherings that demoralize. {AH 482.4}

Provide Innocent Enjoyment for the Day.--Will you not arise, my Christian brethren and sisters, and gird yourselves for duty in the fear of God, so arranging this matter that it shall not be dry and uninteresting, but full of innocent enjoyment that shall bear the signet of Heaven? I know the poorer class will respond to these suggestions. The most wealthy should also show an interest and bestow their gifts and offerings proportionate to the means with which God has entrusted them. Let there be recorded in the heavenly books such a Christmas as has never yet been seen because of the donations which shall be given for the sustaining of the work of God and the upbuilding of His kingdom. {AH 483.1}

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #148423
12/26/12 08:43 PM
12/26/12 08:43 PM
Johann  Offline
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It is a sad experience to see how the words of Ellen G White is rejected on this point.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148427
12/27/12 01:36 AM
12/27/12 01:36 AM
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gordonb1  Offline
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Johann, do you know any SDA clergy who believe and follow EGW's counsel?

____________________

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: gordonb1] #148444
12/27/12 02:04 PM
12/27/12 02:04 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Johann, do you know any SDA clergy who believe and follow EGW's counsel?

____________________


Do you know any who do not?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148445
12/27/12 03:50 PM
12/27/12 03:50 PM
Alpendave  Offline
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No one is saying that Christmas is holy or set apart by God. Kland, your argument is a striking example of a straw man.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Alpendave] #148455
12/27/12 11:06 PM
12/27/12 11:06 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Dave Mullbock
No one is saying that Christmas is holy or set apart by God. Kland, your argument is a striking example of a straw man.

No one is saying that Sunday is holy or set apart by God. Dave, your argument is invalid.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #148456
12/27/12 11:19 PM
12/27/12 11:19 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
There is nothing sacred or hallow about Dec. 25. In fact we have our family gatherings whenever all the family can get together which this year will be next week. We spent Dec. 25 getting the house ready for company!

It's not the day -- it's the season, and we do well to honour Christ's birth and reflect on the incarnation in a special way each year. During the Easter/Passover season we reflect in a special way on Christ's death and resurrection. We need seasons of special reflection on the great events of salvation history.
There is nothing sacred or hallow about Sunday.
It's not the day -- it's the idea of worshiping together on Sunday. We reflect on the Sabbath and Christs death and resurrection.

Take all your arguments and apply it to Sunday worship. That's what the Sunday keepers do.

Christmas came first before Sunday worship was instituted by Constantine. It's one and the same animal.



Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: EGW
The Day Not to Be Ignored.
Christmas is coming. May you all have wisdom to make it a precious season. Let the older church members unite, heart and soul, with their children in this innocent amusement and recreation, in devising ways and means to show true respect to Jesus by bringing to him gifts and offerings.{RH, December 9, 1884 par. 9}
But do you?

Quote:
--As the twenty-fifth of December is observed to commemorate the birth of Christ, as the children have been instructed by precept and example that this was indeed a day of gladness and rejoicing, you will find it a difficult matter to pass over this period without giving it some attention. It can be made to serve a very good purpose. {AH 478.1}
And do you?

[quote] The youth should be treated very carefully. They should not be left on Christmas to find their own amusement in vanity and pleasure seeking, in amusements which will be detrimental to their spirituality. Parents can control this matter by turning the minds and the offerings of their children to God and His cause and the salvation of souls. {AH 478.2}
Do you?

Quote:
The desire for amusement, instead of being quenched and arbitrarily ruled down, should be controlled and directed by painstaking effort upon the part of the parents. Their desire to make gifts may be turned into pure and holy channels and made to result in good to our fellow men by supplying the treasury in the great, grand work for which Christ came into our world. Self-denial and self-sacrifice marked His course of action. Let it mark ours who profess to love Jesus because in Him is centered our hope of eternal life. {AH 478.3}
...
Do you? Do you do follow Ellen White's counsel or do you do your own amusement too?

Don't know about you, but most don't follow her instruction in the matter.

How about your church? How did they follow the instruction you listed? Maybe your church is rare.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Alpendave] #148463
12/28/12 05:33 AM
12/28/12 05:33 AM
Johann  Offline
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Why should we have services on Sunday?

Quote:
Whenever it is possible, let religious services be held on Sunday. Make these meetings intensely interesting. Sing genuine revival hymns, and speak with power and assurance of the Saviour’s love. Speak on temperance and on true religious experience.—Testimonies for the Church 9:233. {ChS 164.2}


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148467
12/28/12 06:38 AM
12/28/12 06:38 AM
Johann  Offline
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In our local churches we have the greatest evangelistic meeting each year on Christmas eve. This service usually has the greatest attendance of any other service in the church during the whole year. Many of the people attending are not members of the church.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148468
12/28/12 06:43 AM
12/28/12 06:43 AM
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The most beautiful Christmas service I have ever attended was in Norway on Christmas day. Families all participated in the service, and there was no sermon. It seemed more like a praise festival, but quiet and sweet, not loud or "festive." A loving spirit pervaded the entire program. I'll never forget it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Green Cochoa] #148471
12/28/12 07:19 AM
12/28/12 07:19 AM
Johann  Offline
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I have also experienced in Norway, where I served as a pastor at that time, that a member wanted us to cancel our weekly Wednesday night prayer meeting when Christmas came on a Wednesday - just to avoid the appearance of us keeping Christmas. I suppose that spirit is still ruling in some areas.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148472
12/28/12 09:00 AM
12/28/12 09:00 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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My post referred to a Christmas Sabbath. I would not expect people to abandon the church service on account of Christmas. Why should prayer meeting be any different?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Green Cochoa] #148473
12/28/12 10:28 AM
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Johann  Offline
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There are many opinions within the SDA church on how to do vaarious things. . .


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148475
12/28/12 12:44 PM
12/28/12 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Early Christians protested the heathen day of worship. Mithra originally was an ancient god of Iran worshiped as a god of strength and war. By the first century, it was transformed into the leading sun god of the western world. Romans called him, Sol Invictus. Mithraism came complete with a cleverly conterfeited dying-rising savior, a special religious supper, a weekly holy day, and baptism of converts. It also included athletic feats of skill and war-like manliness. The fifth century western church ordered its celebration.

About the time of Christ, the days of the week were given names indicating which god ruled over it, with the most important god, Mithra, given the first day of the week, the day of the sun, or sun day. The week was known as the planetory week. Although the day's names were new, sun worship was not new but had been worshipped long before this time and was considered the earliest form of idolatry. Such is evidenced in the Bible.

Job 31:26 If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness;
27 And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand:
28 This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above.

Jer 43:12 And I will kindle a fire in the houses of the gods of Egypt; and he shall burn them, and carry them away captives: and he shall array himself with the land of Egypt, as a shepherd putteth on his garment; and he shall go forth from thence in peace.
13 He shall break also the images of Bethshemesh, that is in the land of Egypt; and the houses of the gods of the Egyptians shall he burn with fire.

(Bethshemesh: 1053 - house of the sun)

2Ki 21:3 For he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal, and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.
(grove: 842 - Asherah or Astarte, a Phoenician goddess)

2Ki 23:4 ¶ And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel.
(grove: 842 - Asherah or Astarte, a Phoenician goddess)
5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

2Ki 23:11 And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.

Eze 8:13 ¶ He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.

Zep 1:5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;


By the middle of the second century, Emperor Aurelian, whose mother was a priestess of the sun, made sun worship the official religion of the Roman empire. Priests of the templ of the Sun at Rome were called "pontiffs". The pagans called their god, "Lord Mithra" and his day of worship, "The Lord's Day". The Christians in Alexanderia and Rome tried to justify their worship of Mithra by saying this was the same Lord's day or Sabbath of the Bible.

Constantine, in 321 A.D. decreed the first Sunday Law commanding rest on "the Venerable Day of the Sun". At the time, Constantine, still a worshiper of Sol Invictus, was the "Pontifix Maximus", or the supreme pagan pontiff of the state religion.

While the celebrated day of Mithra was established for December 25, no date had been established by the middle of the third century for celebrating Jesus' birth. Various dates were presented for the official celebration of the birth of Jesus: January 2, January 6, March 21, April 18 or 19, and May 20 were among several. It wasn't until the fourth century that the commemoration of Christ's birth was included in the Feast of Epiphany on January 6 at most places. About 330 A.D., the church of Rome assigned December 25 as the celebration of the birth of Christ. Even though many Eastern churches kept other dates, by the end of the fourth century, the customs of Rome became universal.

Even though Rome stated the actual date of Christ's birth was unknown, various traditions made up explanations for the choice of the date. Without any reason given for Rome's choice of the date, one is left to consider if the date was chosen to inspire the people to turn from their worship of the sun to the worship of the Son.


The winter solstice occurs on December 21 with the first observable return of the sun being December 25 - "the birth of the sun god". This is the day Mithraists celebrated the birth of their god.

It was also the Roman feast of Saturnalia, which began on December 17 and lasted for 7 days with licentiousness and gambling and exchange of gifts such as candles to symbolize the increase of sunlight after the winter solstice. Many of the customs were transferred to the celebration of Christmas.

While attempts have been made to whitewash Mithra and morph it into some kind of Christian celebration, can any amount of whitewash remove the evil origins and intent? Given the origins of a pagan holiday, so evil and sinister, planned and designed by satan in an attempt to usurp the Creator God, should Christians have anything to do with such a holiday?
Is a tree shaped to the pagan symbol on which Christ was hung, a sin to have in church........?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Rick H] #148478
12/28/12 02:52 PM
12/28/12 02:52 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Rick, are you referring to the cross of tau?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148479
12/28/12 02:55 PM
12/28/12 02:55 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Slight correction: While the date of Christmas was decided in Rome in 330, December 25 was celebrated as the "Birthday of the Sun" under Emperor Aurelian in 275. So, it depends upon what one defines as Christmas versus worshiping on that day versus deciding it's the day to honor for Christians.

De 12:30-31 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148480
12/28/12 02:56 PM
12/28/12 02:56 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Yule

Yule Day is also another name for Christmas. Yule means "infant" or "little child" in Chaldee. December 25 was called the "Child's day" and the night before, the "Mother Night". Isn't that so sweet? Mother and child. Except for the fact that it was called that long before Christianity came into existence.

The Yule log came from the heathen Celtic worship practices in Britain. The evergreen branches were stripped of a log and used for decorations. The remaining log was considered sacred, the end being round like the sun and the length symbolizing the the sun's path through the sky. When it was burned, it gave out heat, just like the sun god.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148488
12/28/12 06:24 PM
12/28/12 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Yule

Yule Day is also another name for Christmas. Yule means "infant" or "little child" in Chaldee. December 25 was called the "Child's day" and the night before, the "Mother Night". Isn't that so sweet? Mother and child. Except for the fact that it was called that long before Christianity came into existence.

The Yule log came from the heathen Celtic worship practices in Britain. The evergreen branches were stripped of a log and used for decorations. The remaining log was considered sacred, the end being round like the sun and the length symbolizing the the sun's path through the sky. When it was burned, it gave out heat, just like the sun god.


I shared you sentiments about Christmas until I made a study of what Ellen G White had to say about this subject. It seems to me like you feel ill at ease following what she has to say. Should we disregard all of that now?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148522
12/30/12 05:04 AM
12/30/12 05:04 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
In our local churches we have the greatest evangelistic meeting each year on Christmas eve. This service usually has the greatest attendance of any other service in the church during the whole year. Many of the people attending are not members of the church.

Yes, every Christmas (not on the 25th necessarily) we have a musical choir presentation. For several years I had the privilege of leading the choir. It was singing beautiful songs to emphasis the first coming of Christ with the Bible story read in between songs.

And yes, every year the church was PACKED. Many people who don't go to church that much show up for the Christmas Contata. Many non-members. It is one of the biggest witnessing programs!

In the last church (which was considerably larger community than we are in now) every Christmas we would make up Christmas hampers for people in need.

And, ADRA gets a nice gift each year. It used to be a major pre-Christmas activity to go caroling and collecting for ADRA several nights a week, each year, but people don't seem to do that as much anymore. But we still remember to give.

We also used to have the tree in church each year where people decorated it with pretty envelopes filled with money for a specific mission project.

Sadly that's no longer done much -- for two reasons.
1. Offering Money is now kept in safe places as trust seems to have lessened.
2. A few people got vocal claiming the tree was an "idol" and an abomination. (Even though EGW recommended this very activity.)

For me the season is Christ centered.





Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148523
12/30/12 05:22 AM
12/30/12 05:22 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Yule

Yule Day is also another name for Christmas. Yule means "infant" or "little child" in Chaldee. December 25 was called the "Child's day" and the night before, the "Mother Night". Isn't that so sweet? Mother and child. Except for the fact that it was called that long before Christianity came into existence.


If you study paganism enough you will find that just about everything pertaining to Christianity has a counterfeit in paganism. And paganism had the ideas FIRST.

You will find athiests accusing Christians of simply absorbing and refining paganism for all our beliefs.

It's true the whole "mother and child" scene can be found in all the pagan religions. The big difference is -- paganism calls the mother "the mother of God", while in the Biblical reality Jesus was God, and the human mother gave Him a human body and He became the Son of man.

We don't have yule logs or any of that stuff, or get into Mary worship.

But we do not throw out the virgin birth and the Bethelem story of our Creator coming to earth in human flesh, "made of a woman" just because satan devised counterfeits in the hopes that we would lose sight of the real.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #148530
12/30/12 12:12 PM
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Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication


If you study paganism enough you will find that just about everything pertaining to Christianity has a counterfeit in paganism. And paganism had the ideas FIRST.



You may be right, and then not quite. We agree that truth came first, the truth about creation and redemption. The truth about the flood, the tower of Babel, etc.

Then Paganism can be a thousand different versions or counterfeit stories of what really happened and what God requires of man. All paganism is a counterfeit rendition of the real truth with all kinds of fiction mixed into the religious exercises, teachings, and practices.

So in reality truth came first. Out of truth emerged fictitious paganisms. When TRUTH appeared in Jesus Christ the enemy saw to it that the TRUTH got mixed again with fiction. We see this happening already in the days of the Apostles and Paul.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148532
12/30/12 01:57 PM
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The question that underlies such discusisons is: Should we celebrate in a Christian manner, on a day that can be demonstrated to have pagan symbolism.

E.G. Christmas. No one knows the day that Christ really was born. December 25 has a pagan association. Therefore, should we celebrate the birth of Christ, which we do not know the date, on a date with a pagan background.

I would challenge you to find any date in the year that does not have a pagan association.

If you have studied Hinduism in depth, you know that every day in the year is celebrated as the birth day of multiple Hindu gods and goddesses. There is no day in the year on which Hindus do not believe multiple gods and goddesses were born. The followers of those gods and goddesses celebrate their birthday on that day in the year. IOW, every day in the year is associated with a Hindu religious day of celebration.

You can add to the above all of the other gods and godesses that exist in other religions.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148571
12/31/12 03:44 PM
12/31/12 03:44 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: kland
Yule

Yule Day is also another name for Christmas. Yule means "infant" or "little child" in Chaldee. December 25 was called the "Child's day" and the night before, the "Mother Night". Isn't that so sweet? Mother and child. Except for the fact that it was called that long before Christianity came into existence.

The Yule log came from the heathen Celtic worship practices in Britain. The evergreen branches were stripped of a log and used for decorations. The remaining log was considered sacred, the end being round like the sun and the length symbolizing the the sun's path through the sky. When it was burned, it gave out heat, just like the sun god.


I shared you sentiments about Christmas until I made a study of what Ellen G White had to say about this subject. It seems to me like you feel ill at ease following what she has to say. Should we disregard all of that now?
If you're referring to your agreement with dedication, I addressed that. Did you disagree?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148572
12/31/12 03:46 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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I know a church which had a gaudy silver tree with silk ornaments on it complete with fake wrapped box presents under it. On the platform. I know another church which had a simple undecorated tree out in the foyer.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148573
12/31/12 03:51 PM
12/31/12 03:51 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Quote:
R: Is a tree shaped to the pagan symbol on which Christ was hung, a sin to have in church........?

k: Rick, are you referring to the cross of tau?

Or are you referring to the celestial cross, formed by the equator and the elliptic of the sun, one of Mithra's signs?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Gregory] #148576
12/31/12 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Gregory
´- - -

I would challenge you to find any date in the year that does not have a pagan association.

If you have studied Hinduism in depth, you know that every day in the year is celebrated as the birth day of multiple Hindu gods and goddesses. There is no day in the year on which Hindus do not believe multiple gods and goddesses were born. The followers of those gods and goddesses celebrate their birthday on that day in the year. IOW, every day in the year is associated with a Hindu religious day of celebration.

You can add to the above all of the other gods and godesses that exist in other religions.



The University of Iceland issues annually an extensive calender as a booklet where you find all kinds of information for every day of the year. Information useful for farmers and many others. As far as I recall it also has the information which saint is hallowed by the Roman Catholic church on each day of the year.

So it might be difficult to find a day that is not hallowed in memory of some saint by the Catholic church as well.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148579
12/31/12 06:47 PM
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As a church pastor in Virginia, many years ago, I became aquainted with the concept of a "Chrismon tree." I found this to be a very meaningful celebration of Christiaqn liefe an belief.


Briefly: Congregational members handmake Christian themed things to hanage on an evergreen tree. A Chrismon tree has nothing seculasre hanging on it. At its best, it is teh work of loving members of the congregation.

IF you want to, you can find a lot about Chrismon trees on teh Internet. But, here is one post:

Quote:
WHAT'S A CHRISMON? Chrismons are a type of Christmas Tree decoration used in many churches and often in the homes of Christians. The symbols used represent a variety of biblical and theological concepts that are well known among most believers. Often, if the ornaments on a Christmas tree are comprised mostly of Christian symbols, the tree is known as a "Chrismon Tree." Chrismons are white with gold decorations of beads, ribbon, glitter, etc. It is common, however, to see these ancient Christian designs in other colors than white and gold.


NOTE: The word "Chrismon" has been trademarked/copyrighted. See that story on the Internet.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148593
01/01/13 07:35 AM
01/01/13 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
I know another church which had a simple undecorated tree out in the foyer.

I know lots of churches that have beautiful bouquets of flowers on the platform. Most have greenery, or floral arrangements of some sort in the foyer, on the piano, or on the platform. In the fall (thanksgiving) we often have colorful garden produce near the front as decoration. And yes, I've often seen small trees used as well (not just at Christmas)

Are you saying it's wrong to decorate churches with nature?




As for the symbol of the cross --
I know one elder who insisted all the handles on the top of the communion covers be cut off because they were in the shape of a cross.
I thought that strange -- a denial that the communion was in remembrance of what happened on a cross 2000 years ago.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #148595
01/01/13 08:10 AM
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It seemed to me like this "movement" claiming the cross was a pagan symbol swept in particular parts of the United States about 50-60 years ago. It was about the time I moved from America to Europe. I found no such stigma in Europe at that time.

In Germany, however, I found a similar stigma against the use of churches. Adventists refused to use a church, and would only have their services in a hall or a chapel. They felt that a church building was like a Catholic relic.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148609
01/01/13 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Johann, do you know any SDA clergy who believe and follow EGW's counsel?

____________________

Do you know any who do not?


Let's assume that you're transparently representing the honour of your SDA clergy colleagues Johann - they are all following EGW's counsel to the best of their knowledge - and to the best of your recollection as a world-traveled minister.

Take a small item, flesh eating clergy, given sharp emphasis by EGW, but laughably legalistic to the world.

S.A. Nagel hosted you at his home, and you spoke highly of him in a recent post I recall. Yet he wrote a book "Anti-Meat Special" where he testified that most of his G.C. brethren ate flesh in the cafeteria. Surely it was a bold move for brother Nagel to place inspired counsel above his peers' ridicule. Or was brother Nagel a liar?

Or have the ministers now evolved to heed all the counsel of EGW, shunning not only dead flesh but all animal foods?
Or possibly, have they adopted this 100 year-old light and built upon it, as is their duty & privilege, bringing new light to the people?
Was Sherman Nagel a disgrace or a beacon of light?

Is EGW relevant to ministers today?
_____________

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: gordonb1] #148618
01/01/13 07:56 PM
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dedication  Offline
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If EGW's counsel were fully followed we would have a very different church today -- there is no question on that point in my mind.

There are ministers that I know who regard EGW as merely a good spiritual writer but not as an "authority".

There are two extremes -
1. Those like I stated above who regard her as merely a good spiritual writer.
2. Those who like to use her as a hammer -- extracting all her most severe statements to individuals, leaving out the statements that show the balance which she gives to the subject, and then making the "extreme statements" a test.

It has often been those operating in #2 mode that have driven people away from EGW's writings for they appear to them unreasonable and outright damaging. They fight against a distorted picture of her messages.

An example -- one person was very familiar with EGW's anti-meat statements. When he found out that EGW herself ate meat occasionally well after writing out the health message, he turned against all her writings.

Eating meat or not eating meat is a principle for HEALTH. If we care for our health we do not eat meat as long as there is other nutritious food available. Meat should not be part of our diet. And yes, she wrote some strong statements to ministers who insisted on a meat diet.
The only way they were going to shake the habit was to STOP their meat consumption totally.

Yet, when EGW and her family were up in the mountains where her husband was recoperating from a stroke, her son went out and shot a duck for food. It's not a matter where we take a stand in which we would rather die than eat meat.

"We are getting short of provisions...A young man from Nova Scotia had come in from hunting. He had a quarter of deer... He gave us a small piece of the meat, which we made into broth. Willie shot a duck which came in a time of need, for our supplies were rapidly diminishing.--Manuscript 11, 1873.

The interesting thing is how those who like to compile her strongest statements against something, will disregard her statements where she says something is "OK" which they think should have been severely rebuked.

Example -- she gives counsel on HOW to observe Christmas, while they heap the whole concept of a time to celebrate Christ's birth with darkest paganism.

But as to your question --

Is EGW relevant to minister today?
Yes, today of all times ministers NEED to take EGW's statements seriously. We are on the brink of stupendous times -- we need the messages God gave her to cast a light on the endtime path even as we keep our eyes on Jesus.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: gordonb1] #148622
01/01/13 09:36 PM
01/01/13 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Johann, do you know any SDA clergy who believe and follow EGW's counsel?

____________________

Do you know any who do not?


Let's assume that you're transparently representing the honour of your SDA clergy colleagues Johann - they are all following EGW's counsel to the best of their knowledge - and to the best of your recollection as a world-traveled minister.

Take a small item, flesh eating clergy, given sharp emphasis by EGW, but laughably legalistic to the world.

S.A. Nagel hosted you at his home, and you spoke highly of him in a recent post I recall. Yet he wrote a book "Anti-Meat Special" where he testified that most of his G.C. brethren ate flesh in the cafeteria. Surely it was a bold move for brother Nagel to place inspired counsel above his peers' ridicule. Or was brother Nagel a liar?

Or have the ministers now evolved to heed all the counsel of EGW, shunning not only dead flesh but all animal foods?
Or possibly, have they adopted this 100 year-old light and built upon it, as is their duty & privilege, bringing new light to the people?
Was Sherman Nagel a disgrace or a beacon of light?

Is EGW relevant to ministers today?
_____________


Your assumptions are not fully correct.

For clarification let me make a few statements:

1. I have never been to the home of Dr. Nagel. He visited us in Nigeria and enjoyed everything on our table.

2. I have been a vegetarian all of my life, and I have no intention of changing that.

3. As much as I respect Dr. Nagel, I will never make his writings my Bible, nor a foundation for my evaluation of my church.

4. Although I have never had a meal at Dr. Nagel's place I have had meals with uncountable Seventh-day Adventist pastors in many countries in three different hemispheres of this world.

5. Again, although I am a vegetarian myself, my church has never made it a test of fellowship to be a vegetarian. If I do that, I am no longer true to my own church and my fellowship with the believers.

6. Some of the compilations of the writings of Ellen White give more the views of the compilers than those of Ellen White herself. Often those compilers dismiss quite a bit of what she also has written. Consider the post of dedication.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148624
01/01/13 09:53 PM
01/01/13 09:53 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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I agree with these points, Johann. Well said. Compilations of Ellen White frequently fail of transmitting her thoughts accurately. She was far more balanced than people make her to be when they quote the more outlying statements.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Green Cochoa] #148628
01/01/13 10:14 PM
01/01/13 10:14 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I agree with these points, Johann. Well said. Compilations of Ellen White frequently fail of transmitting her thoughts accurately. She was far more balanced than people make her to be when they quote the more outlying statements.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


That sounds very good


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148636
01/01/13 11:23 PM
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Gregory  Offline
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Quote:
Compilations of Ellen White frequently fail of transmitting her thoughts accurately. She was far more balanced than people make her to be when they quote the more outlying statements.


EGW, contrary to the way that she is often presented was a reasonable person.

How many of you have heard that she said that every woman should have a red dress to wear--Not what she actually said.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Gregory] #148642
01/02/13 12:35 AM
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"The world has converted the Church"
__________________________________

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Gregory] #148646
01/02/13 02:03 AM
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Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gregory


How many of you have heard that she said that every woman should have a red dress to wear--Not what she actually said.


Several years ago I checked this out by reading every place in her writings where she refers to the color red. I found just a few where she speaks of clothing.

1. She liked the red coat of her granddaughter

2. Her secretary left her red stockings in America when they went to Australia. Ellen White wrote to a friend in America who was coming to Australia and asked that person to bring along those red stockings.

Those are the only two references I recall now.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #148671
01/02/13 03:58 PM
01/02/13 03:58 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: kland
I know another church which had a simple undecorated tree out in the foyer.

I know lots of churches that have beautiful bouquets of flowers on the platform. Most have greenery, or floral arrangements of some sort in the foyer, on the piano, or on the platform. In the fall (thanksgiving) we often have colorful garden produce near the front as decoration. And yes, I've often seen small trees used as well (not just at Christmas)

Are you saying it's wrong to decorate churches with nature?


I think you missed my point. I was contrasting the two trees. There was nothing natural about the one tree.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148672
01/02/13 04:01 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Johann, was there something about Ellen White's writings regarding Christmas you would like to discuss? I got the feeling you thought she meant differently.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148684
01/02/13 10:17 PM
01/02/13 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Johann, was there something about Ellen White's writings regarding Christmas you would like to discuss? I got the feeling you thought she meant differently.


Well, yes, since you asked. In this discussion I noticed DEDICATION presented quite a few wonderful quotations by Ellen G White on Christmas. It appears to me that some of the people participating in this discussion prefer ignoring anything presented by such an authority, and displaying their own vain wisdom about some pagan gods, rather than what the Lord Himself is able to bring to His children.

Am I too concerned about this matter?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148700
01/03/13 05:52 PM
01/03/13 05:52 PM
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Re. Red Dress:

Johann, there is a 3rd statement by EGW that you did not cite. in writing to a specific woman, EGW stated that she (the other woman) looked well in red. And, EGW sent that woman a gift of three pieces of cloth, one was red, and encouraged her to make herself a dress out of each of the pieces of cloth.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Gregory] #148704
01/03/13 08:21 PM
01/03/13 08:21 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gregory
Re. Red Dress:

Johann, there is a 3rd statement by EGW that you did not cite. in writing to a specific woman, EGW stated that she (the other woman) looked well in red. And, EGW sent that woman a gift of three pieces of cloth, one was red, and encouraged her to make herself a dress out of each of the pieces of cloth.


Thank you Gregory! I have no recollection of finding this reference. I think every SDA worker should have a good knowledge of the matters Ellen White deals with. Through my half century of work with church members I have discovered that there is a great ignorance of what she really deals with, and this even marks some of those who pride themselves with being the most conservative among us, who have traced a pattern by which they judge their fellow believers from a few select quotations they have come across or borrowed from others in similar circumstances.

With this I am not pointing out specific individuals, just a trend I have seen in various countries, where such lines take different directions according to cultural patterns in the local society.

Study the Scriptures and Testimonies, applying it to yourself before you make it at base to judge others by it.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148727
01/04/13 04:23 PM
01/04/13 04:23 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: kland
Johann, was there something about Ellen White's writings regarding Christmas you would like to discuss? I got the feeling you thought she meant differently.


Well, yes, since you asked. In this discussion I noticed DEDICATION presented quite a few wonderful quotations by Ellen G White on Christmas. It appears to me that some of the people participating in this discussion prefer ignoring anything presented by such an authority, and displaying their own vain wisdom about some pagan gods, rather than what the Lord Himself is able to bring to His children.

Am I too concerned about this matter?
Yes, that was what I was referring to. Is there one of them you'd like to discuss? As I get the feeling you think they support the idea of celebrating Christmas the way we do.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Alpendave] #148729
01/04/13 04:34 PM
01/04/13 04:34 PM
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Can anyone name me one Adventist who claims to celebrate or worship Mithra?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Stan] #148792
01/06/13 11:07 AM
01/06/13 11:07 AM
Johann  Offline
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Many claims are being made. . .

Many years ago our local Book and Bible House happened to have a book or two in their stock that were published by a Pentecostal church.

Just yesterday I visited a senior church member who insisted that our SDA leaders are spiritualists, and he claimed he could prove it. Since the Pentecostals do not share our view on the state of the dead, they must be spiritualists. And since our conference president at that time (I think he died about 20 years ago) did not stop this sale immediately he must have been a spiritualist, even if the books were removed at a later date. And since none of the later presidents have ever made a public statement about it, they must also be spiritualists.

So where do you find TRUTH?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #148807
01/07/13 06:13 PM
01/07/13 06:13 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Stan, can you name one Catholic who claims they worship the sun or satan by going to church on Sunday?


------------


Or were you responding to the title?

Last edited by kland; 01/07/13 06:21 PM.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148808
01/07/13 06:16 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Johann, one claim you seem to imply to me is that you think Ellen White supports the way most people celebrate Christmas today. All the quotes I know of, show a much different view. Is there one of them you'd like to discuss? No?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #148995
01/13/13 06:29 PM
01/13/13 06:29 PM
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Wondering why there haven't been any further responses to the last post or two here?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Daryl] #149114
01/18/13 03:35 PM
01/18/13 03:35 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Perhaps references reviewed revealed reflections reversed?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #149115
01/18/13 03:57 PM
01/18/13 03:57 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Satan Claus

Oops, a switch of the lettering?

While there may have been a bishop named "Nicholas" who helped the poor, that wasn't where the name came from. (Sant-Ni-Klaus) and "Kriss Kringle" are from the German word, "Christ Krindl" or Christ Child - a counterfeit Christ.

The Egyptian god, Bes, and the Roman god, Saturn, may be familiar as a short rotund god who gave gifts to children, who lived in the far north making toys for them.

When the dutch children came to America and brought their ancient Catholic customs with them, the English children also wanted a visit from a heavenly visitor such as their Sinter Klaas. But the idea of having a Catholic saint and bishop was repulsive to the parents so they changed the date from December 5 to Christmas and introduced a change in the character.

The pagan god, Thor, of whom Thursday is named, from ancient German mythology is described as a god of the peasants, and elderly man, jovial and friendly, of heavy build, with a long white beard. He drove a chariot pulled by two white goats, Cracker and Gnasher. He lived in the Northland, fighting the giants of ice and snow. He a friendly and helpful god and being the god of fire, the fireplace of every home was sacred to him as that was where he entered the home by coming down the chimney.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #149119
01/18/13 04:35 PM
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Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Johann, one claim you seem to imply to me is that you think Ellen White supports the way most people celebrate Christmas today. All the quotes I know of, show a much different view. Is there one of them you'd like to discuss? No?


No, I make no such claim. But that does not mean that we need to refrain from "celebrating" Christmas the way Ellen White suggests, does it? Some posters here seemed to reject what Ellen says about Christmas as if her recommendations are equal to following pagan customs. I want to emphasize that Ellen White was not a pagan.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Johann] #149166
01/21/13 09:21 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Guess I'm not one of them. For some reason I thought you were implying I was. Not sure why you brought it up. Maybe you know some others who disagree with Ellen White's recommendations. I agree with what Ellen White says how we should "celebrate" Christmas. I disagree with how the majority of our churches and in our churches celebrate Christmas. They do reject what Ellen White says. But they do follow pagan customs.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159269
12/16/13 02:54 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Mistletoe

Mistletoe was considered sacred to the sun and was used at the re-birth of the sun and the winter solstice.

Mistletoe was also a sacred plant of the Druids in Britain. So sacred was this plant that when enemies happened to meet beneath it in the forest, they would lay down their arms, exchange a friendly greeting, and keep a truce until the next day.

After Britain converted to Christianity, the bishops banned the pagan practice. Except at York where a priest brought it in and laid claim that it was a symbol of Christ. The people of England then adapted mistletoe as a decoration for their homes, and the paganism was soon forgotten.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159276
12/16/13 05:50 PM
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Mountain Man  Offline
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Too bad much of the holiday is celebrated without Jesus.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Mountain Man] #159339
12/18/13 03:38 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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True. And while each day should be celebrated with Jesus, the question is, should Mithra be celebrated? Otherwise, in like manner, that is to say, should Sunday be celebrated with Jesus?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159344
12/18/13 04:08 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Wreaths and Christmas trees

Wreaths were formed from evergreen branches in the shape of the sun representing that life cannot exist without sunlight. They were also worn as fertility symbols representing the continuous cycles of life, death, and rebirth. Holly berries were considered sacred to the sun-god.

Green trees were cut and decorated with food and offerings to Mithra. Christmas trees originated from Egypt long before the Christian era. Because they remain green, they symbolize immortality and fertility. The Egyptian priests taught that the evergreen tree sprang from the grave of their god Osiris, who after being killed by another god, came to life from the energy of the evergreen tree.

Quote:
Jer 10:2 So says the LORD, Do not learn the way of the nations, and do not be terrified at the signs of the heavens; for the nations are terrified at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain; for one cuts a tree out of the forest with the axe, the work of the hands of the workman.
4 They adorn it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers, so that it will not wobble.
5 They are like a rounded post, and they cannot speak. They must surely be lifted, because they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of them; for they cannot do evil nor good, for it is not in them.


Look for one of these things in a church near you!

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159383
12/19/13 08:27 AM
12/19/13 08:27 AM
dedication  Offline
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No, Mithra should NOT be celebrated.

Nor should we get into the santa, big party, and materialistic spirit that prevails at this time of year. The whole santa, selfish, materialist theme has no place in the home and church in which Christ is center.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a special season when people are focusing on Christ's incarnation as He came to this earth, taking upon Himself humanity, coming to be our Savior,.
Nor is there anything wrong with loving fellowship with family and friends.

What I found is that some people get so INTO the pagan ideas that soon a person can't do anything without pagan ideas buzzing in their heads. It's a sad thing, especially when people won't even come to church in December because we sing songs like "Away in a Manager" or "Angels we have heard on high", and the Pastor preaches sermons centered around Christ's birth. And horrors -- the church sometimes has a special potluck supper with a few ever green decorations in the evening.

We've had people who sawed off the crosses from communion trays (because pagan's had crosses) They knocked down steeples from churches (they supposedly were about sun worship). They denounced little kids because they had rainbow stripes on their stockings (how could parents put such a pagan symbol on their kids?) We've had people denounce men wearing ties, claiming that was also a pagan symbol. They wanted the pulpit removed from the church, (because something in the shape reminded them of the papal "fish" hats). They even pulled down the curtains because they had a swirly design that supposedly came from some pagan background.

I'm sorry, but obviously the pagans had a lot of things we have today. They even had "virgin births" and baptisms, the death and resurrection of their gods. Should we denounce the resurrection of Christ because of that? No, of course not.

The big thing is to get away from paganism, not denounce every object, shape, or design that someone discovers was used somewhere in paganism.

Paul's principle when dealing with foods offered to idols, applies here -- if something makes you THINK you are worshipping other gods, then don't do it, but don't judge the freedom of people who see no connection with what they are doing, with pagan symbols.

For example -- a rainbow is Biblical -- a sign of the covenant no less (even though Paganism uses it as one of their symbols)

Trees are part of God's creation, no different bringing in some greenery in the snowy wintery weather, than bringing in bouquets of flowers in summer.

As for SUNDAY --
Indeed worship Jesus on Sunday, (and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday) oh wait -- better get rid of those names as well, they also come from paganism.

However, the seventh day, (dare I call it Saturday) is the day God blessed for SPECIAL holy time.

Thus that day is the SABBATH and we acknowledge that God is our Creator, Savior, and Lord.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159392
12/19/13 04:46 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication

As for SUNDAY --
Indeed worship Jesus on Sunday, (and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday) oh wait -- better get rid of those names as well, they also come from paganism.

However, the seventh day, (dare I call it Saturday) is the day God blessed for SPECIAL holy time.

Thus that day is the SABBATH and we acknowledge that God is our Creator, Savior, and Lord.

You make a good point. The Sabbath day, God blessed.
He didn't bless Sunday.
He didn't bless Mithra.

True, one could carry paganism to extremes. But should we as Adventists have anything to do with worshiping on Sunday? Should we as Adventists have anything to do with a day that is so anti-Christian, and specifically so anti-Adventist? The day which started the whole Sunday worshiping popularity! The day which started being responsible for the persecution, the Inquisition, and for the mark of the beast?

There is nothing any more Christian about Christmas than there is about Sunday. They are one and the same. The one came from the other. Can we take a satanic holiday, mask a nice "Christian" theme over the top of it and call it "holy"? Then how can we do the same for Mithra?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159417
12/20/13 03:40 AM
12/20/13 03:40 AM
dedication  Offline
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I see your position as extreme.

Don't you worship God on Sundays?
You wrote "should we as Adventist have anything to do with worshiping on Sunday?"
Are you suggesting you do not begin your day with prayer on Sundays (because the sun is rising about the same time and you may be worshipping the sun?) Don't you have worship on Sundays?
Aren't we suppose to worship God EVERY day?
Everyday we can say "This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it".

That should not take away from the specialness and holiness of the 7th day Sabbath.

December 25 is NOT a "holy" day like the Sabbath, unless it happens to fall on the seventh day of the week, otherwise it is a common day when you can do secular activities.

True, we should not get involved with the pagan, worldly stuff that is commonly associated with the seasonal holiday --
The world is trying very hard to make it Christless -- to the point where they don't want to call it Christmas anymore.


But Christmas can be a most Christ centered event. It all depends upon the person. You can focus on Mithra, or you can focus on Christ.

I chose to focus on Christ.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159425
12/20/13 12:12 PM
12/20/13 12:12 PM
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"Santa" is a poorly disguised word for "Satan." This counterfeit "giver" is meant only to distract our attention from the Source of every true and perfect gift (see James 1).

In fact, the disguise for "jolly" ol' "Saint" Nicholas can be broken as easily as looking up "Old Nick" in a dictionary.

As for having a Christmas tree during the holidays, we have inspired counsel on that. Every church should have a Christmas tree to which the members may bring their gifts to Jesus--with those gifts being its adornment.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"Shall We Have a Christmas Tree?"--God would be well pleased if on Christmas each church would have a Christmas tree on which shall be hung offerings, great and small, for these houses of worship. [NOTE: REFERENCE IS MADE IN THIS ARTICLE TO CURRENT BUILDING PROJECTS. AS THE PRINCIPLES SET FORTH IN THIS CONNECTION ARE APPLICABLE TODAY, THESE SPECIFIC REFERENCES ARE LEFT IN THE ARTICLE.] Letters of inquiry have come to us asking, Shall we have a Christmas tree? Will it not be like the world? We answer, You can make it like the world if you have a disposition to do so, or you can make it as unlike the world as possible. There is no particular sin in selecting a fragrant evergreen and placing it in our churches, but the sin lies in the motive which prompts to action and the use which is made of the gifts placed upon the tree. {AH 482.1}

The tree may be as tall and its branches as wide as shall best suit the occasion; but let its boughs be laden with the golden and silver fruit of your beneficence, and present this to Him as your Christmas gift. Let your donations be sanctified by prayer. {AH 482.2}

Christmas and New Year celebrations can and should be held in behalf of those who are helpless. God is glorified when we give to help those who have large families to support. {AH 482.3}

A Tree Laden With Offerings Is Not Sinful.--Let not the parents take the position that an evergreen placed in the church for the amusement of the Sabbath school scholars is a sin, for it may be made a great blessing. Keep before their minds benevolent objects. In no case should mere amusement be the object of these gatherings. While there may be some who will turn these occasions into seasons of careless levity, and whose minds will not receive the divine impress, to other minds and characters these seasons will be highly beneficial. I am fully satisfied that innocent substitutes can be devised for many gatherings that demoralize. {AH 482.4}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Green Cochoa] #159427
12/20/13 03:34 PM
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I agree that treating Christmas as a pagan holiday is extreme. There is nothing pagan about it if it is treated properly. Our pioneers did so with gusto.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159430
12/20/13 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
That should not take away from the specialness and holiness of the 7th day Sabbath.
But that's what we are talking about. You knew that, didn't you? So why did you talk about all days are for worship?

What in your mind would be a most satanic holiday?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: Mountain Man] #159432
12/20/13 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I agree that treating Christmas as a pagan holiday is extreme. There is nothing pagan about it if it is treated properly. Our pioneers did so with gusto.
Do you view Ellen white as one of "our pioneers"? What did she say about Christmas? (Note: see what Green quoted) Is that how it is "celebrated" in our churches today? Or is what is in our churches today merely a celebration which demoralizes, a season of careless levity and amusement?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159444
12/20/13 11:15 PM
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dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication
That should not take away from the specialness and holiness of the 7th day Sabbath.
But that's what we are talking about. You knew that, didn't you? So why did you talk about all days are for worship?

What in your mind would be a most satanic holiday?


A right attitude at Christmas that focuses on Christ's incarnation (His birth and coming to this world to save us from sin) most certainly does NOT take away from Sabbath observance in the least.

You seem to think it's somehow evil to worship on other days than the Sabbath. There is nothing wrong with setting aside time, other than on the Sabbath to worship. We are to worship everyday --
Then on the Sabbath it's a special holy day of worship.
In fact Sabbath worship is much more meaningful if we've spent time in worship all week long.




A satanic holiday??? -- Halloween -- that's when death, violence and spirits are celebrated, an unholy holiday for sure.

Last edited by dedication; 12/20/13 11:19 PM.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159451
12/21/13 12:47 AM
12/21/13 12:47 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I agree that treating Christmas as a pagan holiday is extreme. There is nothing pagan about it if it is treated properly. Our pioneers did so with gusto.
Do you view Ellen white as one of "our pioneers"? What did she say about Christmas? (Note: see what Green quoted) Is that how it is "celebrated" in our churches today? Or is what is in our churches today merely a celebration which demoralizes, a season of careless levity and amusement?


I don't know what church you go to, and no doubt there are churches who are more into entertainment instead of worship are more worldly than usual during the Christmas season -- following the customs of the world.

However, the churches I've been part of generally have a musical program-- a cantata with songs and readings telling the story of Christ's birth and mission. This is usually an evening program. We find it's one time when a lot of non-Adventists come to our churches and they hear the story of Jesus.

On Sabbaths there is usually a sermon focused on some aspect of Christ's first coming.
During the season there is a heightened "giving" appeal, for ADRA, etc.

Prior to Christmas names are collected of people who could use a little cheer, and food baskets and possibly a toy or two if the family has children is delivered.

Yes, quite often there is a potluck dinner and fellowship, but I haven't seen a "demoralizing, careless levity" -- it's just fellowship where usually someone has volunteered to make the place look special. Often the musical program and potluck supper are combined and guests are invited.

Churches that have church schools usually have a Christmas concert by the kids a few weeks before Christmas. The last one I attended the school band played numerous pieces (quite tradition music by the way) which they had learned in their band class, and the kids had several poems and a short little play demonstrating the "true meaning" of Christmas. There was no demoralizing levity.

Any occasion can be turned into "demoralizing levity" or it can be an uplifting time that strengthens family and friendship ties, opens doors to witnessing, as well as being spiritually uplifting for the people involved -- it all depends on the people and their outlook.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159462
12/21/13 03:37 PM
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Dedication, thank you for expressing the matter in a balanced and loving way.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159526
12/23/13 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
A satanic holiday??? -- Halloween -- that's when death, violence and spirits are celebrated, an unholy holiday for sure.
So what if we our churches were to make a big celebration of halloween and say it's not the witches and stuff we're remembering but merely acknowledging that God sends His spirit to those on the earth, not focusing on the pagan ideas, but keeping our focus on Christ, etc., etc.

Would you be comfortable with such a holiday celebration, no matter how it was whitewashed, realizing the origin behind it?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159557
12/24/13 07:13 AM
12/24/13 07:13 AM
dedication  Offline
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There is a huge difference between Christmas and Halloween.

The Christian world and even many non-Christians do focus on Christ and His first advent during the Christmas season.
Though santa tries to choke that out, it is there none the less.

Halloween on the other hand, has nothing in it that is Christian.
But yes, even on Halloween, we should find an alternative to focus on -- like the Great Controversy Theme, the State of the Dead, how sin causes violence and death, and how Christ brings peace and life.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159558
12/24/13 07:15 AM
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dedication  Offline
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One of my favorite Christmas Choir Song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdSS0Ya5W3g

Based on a passage in Isaiah

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159568
12/24/13 03:17 PM
12/24/13 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
There is a huge difference between Christmas and Halloween.

The Christian world and even many non-Christians do focus on Christ and His first advent during the Christmas season.
Though santa tries to choke that out, it is there none the less.

Halloween on the other hand, has nothing in it that is Christian.
But yes, even on Halloween, we should find an alternative to focus on -- like the Great Controversy Theme, the State of the Dead, how sin causes violence and death, and how Christ brings peace and life.
But what if we whitewash it with something nice? Would that make it ok?

"In the ninth century, Pope Gregory IV said that it (Allhallows day) must be kept by all Christians. Church discipline would be enforced on those who refused."

"Christ's mass, performed on December 25, must be attended by the faithful, under penalty of mortal sin for not doing so."

Is there a huge difference?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159582
12/24/13 08:33 PM
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dedication  Offline
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with focusing on Christ's birth and incarnation in a special way during the month of December.

We do NOT go to mass, or believe the date itself is holy, nor do we seek the pope's blessing in attending some service.

I believe it is far more EVIL to call heavenly things "pagan" than it is to celebrate Christ's birth in the month of December.

Satan has counterfeited EVERY aspect of Christ's mission and ministry. And all those counterfeits were in place BEFORE Christ's first advent.

Yes, shun the pagan issues, but don't shun Christ, His birth and the most awesome truth that God became man in order to save us. Don't condemn people who make this season a special time to focus on these precious truths.

If we refuse to honor Christ because Satan has counterfeits, than we are in all essence denying Christ.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159584
12/24/13 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Satan has counterfeited EVERY aspect of Christ's mission and ministry. And all those counterfeits were in place BEFORE Christ's first advent.
Well said, well said. And Christ's first advent had nothing to do with the birth of the sun god. Until after it was Vaticanized.

Interesting how you suggest we should not take seriously certain versions of the scripture because the Vatican had hold of them, but yet at the same time, when the Vatican promoted the Christianization of a pagan holiday, you say embrace fully!

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159585
12/24/13 10:04 PM
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Winter Solstice

December 21st was the winter solstice, the shortest day of the year, after which the days become longer, the rebirth of the sun. It's also celebrated by some as the rebirth of the sun god. The 21st was technically the solstice. Since this is when the sun reaches it's furthermost point south, it happens the same time throughout the northern hemisphere. And only varies a day, depending upon when the technical time crosses midnight.

During the ancient times, they did not observe the increasing day length at the technical point. This rebirth of the sun wasn't observed, and celebrated, until about 4 days later....

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159598
12/25/13 07:55 AM
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dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland

Interesting how you suggest we should not take seriously certain versions of the scripture because the Vatican had hold of them, but yet at the same time, when the Vatican promoted the Christianization of a pagan holiday, you say embrace fully!



Again you mix apples with grapefruits.
The Bible is God's Word to us, and we want the true word.
It's not the fact that the Vatican "had hold of them", but what happened to the manuscripts.
It wasn't the Catholic Church that "gave us the true scriptures".

Nor do I "embrace the pagan" or the "mass" of Christmas.
Catholism didn't give us the true picture of the incarnation of Christ either.

I see the Christmas Season as a time to focus on Christ's birth, and for some family togetherness. After all it's a time when we all get PAID time off work and can get together -- which we will do next week. I'll be cleaning and cooking tomorrow in preparation.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159600
12/25/13 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Winter Solstice

December 21st was the winter solstice, the shortest day of the year, after which the days become longer, the rebirth of the sun. It's also celebrated by some as the rebirth of the sun god. The 21st was technically the solstice. Since this is when the sun reaches it's furthermost point south, it happens the same time throughout the northern hemisphere. And only varies a day, depending upon when the technical time crosses midnight.



I'm fully aware of that. And what a relief for us who live in a land where right now the sun goes down in the middle of the afternoon and doesn't come up again until after we've gone to work the next morning, to know the days will be getting longer again.

I've often thought on this that Christ came to earth at the darkest hour of earth's history, to bring hope. To bring assurance that the eternal day is coming.


Quote:
" The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken....Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}

The Child of Bethlehem, the meek and lowly Saviour, is God "manifest in the flesh." 1 Timothy 3:16. And to us He says: "I AM the Good Shepherd." "I AM the living Bread." "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life." "All power is given
unto Me in heaven and in earth." John 10:11; 6:51; 14:6; Matthew 28:18. I AM the assurance of every promise. I AM; be not afraid. "God with us" is the surety of our deliverance from sin, the assurance of our power to obey the law of heaven. {DA 24.3}

Here, where the Son of God tabernacled in humanity; where the King of glory lived and suffered and died,--here, when He shall make all things new, the tabernacle of God shall be with men, "and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God." And through endless ages as the redeemed walk in the light of the Lord, they will praise Him for His unspeakable Gift,--


Immanuel, "God with us." {DA 26.3}

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159636
12/27/13 01:41 PM
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Many churches and Christians have focused on the Christian aspects of Christmas.

In 1957, a Lutheran congregation developed what they called a Chrismon Tree. It is an evergreen that is decorated only with Christian symbols.

This has been taken up with many congregations and individuals.

Google "chrismon tree" and "chrismon" and you will find a lot of information. I should be of interest to you.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159639
12/27/13 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: kland

Interesting how you suggest we should not take seriously certain versions of the scripture because the Vatican had hold of them, but yet at the same time, when the Vatican promoted the Christianization of a pagan holiday, you say embrace fully!



Again you mix apples with grapefruits.
The Bible is God's Word to us, and we want the true word.
It's not the fact that the Vatican "had hold of them", but what happened to the manuscripts.
It wasn't the Catholic Church that "gave us the true scriptures".

Nor do I "embrace the pagan" or the "mass" of Christmas.
Catholism didn't give us the true picture of the incarnation of Christ either.

I see the Christmas Season as a time to focus on Christ's birth, and for some family togetherness. After all it's a time when we all get PAID time off work and can get together -- which we will do next week. I'll be cleaning and cooking tomorrow in preparation.
Maybe I do mix apples with grapefruits. On the one hand the Vatican helped preserve the scriptures. Whether they changed some of it, has yet to be proved. But with Christmas, it was entirely instigated by the Vatican.

So you shun the part where they had only partial influence, if any, and fully embrace what the Vatican created.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159690
12/28/13 04:41 AM
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If the Vatican had it's way, we would not have the scriptures.

And why do you misrepresent --
What the Vatican created, is not what I embrace.


This is --

Quote:
Christmas--a Time to Honor God.--By the world the holidays are spent in frivolity and extravagance, gluttony and display. . . . Thousands of dollars will be worse than thrown away upon the coming Christmas and New Year's in needless indulgences. But it is our privilege to depart from the customs and practices of this degenerate age; and instead of expending means merely for the gratification of the appetite or for needless ornaments or articles of clothing, we may make the coming holidays an occasion in which to honor and glorify God. {AH 480.3}
Christ should be the supreme object; but as Christmas has been observed, the glory is turned from Him to mortal man, whose sinful, defective character made it necessary for Him to come to our world.
{AH 480.4}
Jesus, the Majesty of heaven, the royal King of heaven, laid aside His royalty, left His throne of glory, His high command, and came into our world to bring to fallen man, weakened in moral power and corrupted by sin, aid divine. He clothed his divinity with humanity, that he might reach to the very depths of human woe and misery, to lift up fallen man. By taking upon himself man's nature, he raised humanity in the scale of moral value with God. These great themes are almost too high, too deep, too infinite, for the comprehension of finite minds. {AH 481.1}

Parents should keep these things before their children and instruct them, line upon line, precept upon precept, in their obligation to God--not their obligation to each other, to honor and glorify one another by gifts and offerings. {AH 481.2}

While sinful amusements are condemned, as they should be, let parents, teachers, and guardians of youth provide in their stead innocent pleasures, which shall not taint or corrupt the morals. Do not bind down the young to rigid rules and restraints that will lead them to feel themselves oppressed and to break over and rush into paths of folly and destruction.

Christmas is coming. May you all have wisdom to make it a precious season. Let the older church members unite, heart and soul, with their children in this innocent amusement and recreation, in devising ways and means to show true respect to Jesus {RH, December 9, 1884 par. 9}


But you tell me inviting my children home at this time and making home a pleasant place where we can enjoy family togetherness at a time when we focus on Christ's birth --
is embracing the Vatican fully??????

You aren't just speaking against the wrong practices linked with Christmas, you are condemning what we are told by God's messenger to do.




Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #159779
12/30/13 02:53 PM
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But, do you do as God's messenger says?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159780
12/30/13 03:02 PM
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NOTE 4. PAGE 316. THE ISRAELITES, IN THEIR ADORATION OF THE GOLDEN CALF, PROFESSED TO BE WORSHIPING GOD. THUS AARON, WHEN INAUGURATING THE WORSHIP OF THE IDOL, PROCLAIMED, "TOMORROW IS A FEAST UNTO JEHOVAH." THEY PROPOSED TO WORSHIP GOD, AS THE EGYPTIANS WORSHIPED OSIRIS, UNDER THE SEMBLANCE OF THE IMAGE. BUT GOD COULD NOT ACCEPT THE SERVICE. THOUGH OFFERED IN HIS NAME, THE SUN-GOD, AND NOT JEHOVAH, WAS THE REAL OBJECT OF THEIR ADORATION. {PP 760.1}

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159826
12/31/13 02:32 PM
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Eze 8:13 He also said to me, You turn again, and you shall see greater evils that they are doing.
14 And He brought me to the opening of the gate of the LORD's house, toward the north. And behold, women were sitting there, weeping for Tammuz.
15 And He said to me, Have you seen, O son of man? Turn yet again, and you shall see greater evils than these.
16 And He brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and behold, at the opening of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs toward the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east; and they bowed themselves eastward to the sun.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #159895
01/02/14 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Eze 8:13 He also said to me, You turn again, and you shall see greater evils that they are doing.
14 And He brought me to the opening of the gate of the LORD's house, toward the north. And behold, women were sitting there, weeping for Tammuz.
15 And He said to me, Have you seen, O son of man? Turn yet again, and you shall see greater evils than these.
16 And He brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and behold, at the opening of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs toward the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east; and they bowed themselves eastward to the sun.


No I do not do any of that --
no bowing down to images, or worshipping the rising sun, not worshipping of trees either, or weeping for Tamaz or Mithra or any of those pagan myths.
The Israelites were worshipping the golden calf and saying it "represented" God. That of course is wrong. If anyone were to worship santa saying he represents God, then that too would be totally unacceptable.
That dimension can enter into Christmas and there the warning is appropriate.
Unhealthful eating and partying -- should be avoided as well.


However, people who refuse to go to church all December, because the subject and songs are focused on Christ's incarnation his birth, and why He came to this world as a human being, is going to extremes.
Some seem to think worshipping Christ during December when the focus is his first Advent, is the same as worshipping the golden calf -- and that is plain unreasonable and strange.


All most of us do, is have our family together sometime during the Christmas season, -- and enjoy each other's company.
Another great thing is to invite people who don't have family to join, and be part of a family setting for the day.

Makes me wonder -- do you even have family?

Many who condemn even the innocent activities of Christians during the Christmas Season don't have families --

quite often it's people who don't have family or who lost family who want nothing whatsoever to do with the Christmas season as it is very much a "family time" -- a time that knits families together, but accentuates loneliness for those without family.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: dedication] #160110
01/07/14 04:18 PM
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De 12:30 take heed to yourself that you do not become snared by following them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not ask about their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods that I too may do likewise?

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #160111
01/07/14 04:34 PM
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Halloween

Just like sanctifying the day of the sun, so the papacy sanctified Halloween. It was also, "Christianized", and urged that special masses must be said for the dead. Children went out to gather "offerings" of food from neighbors as that was easier than the alternative of fasting. These offerings were so departed souls could be released from their sufferings in purgatory sooner.

Some today dress their children up in Bible costumes in an attempt to "Christianize" the pagan holiday even more.

The custom of giving treats to kids who come by came from offerings to demons of things they liked, dainty food and sweets. This would help the humans to escape their persecutions. Or, humans could disguise themselves as one of them, and they wouldn't recognize them.

Don't forget to give an apple to the Roman goddess Pomona, to whom gardens and orchards are dedicated. The feast of Pomona, November 1.

Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #186233
03/19/18 03:19 PM
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Re: Should Christians celebrate Mithra - the birth of the sun god? [Re: kland] #186235
03/20/18 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Is Drew Carey wrong?

He's Jehovah Witness --

The part of santas and easter bunnies NOT belonging with nativity scenes and the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, is spot on.

But don't eliminate the nativity and the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.

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