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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: dedication] #149235
01/27/13 01:48 PM
01/27/13 01:48 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
OP
Site Administrator
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 24,541
Nova Scotia, Canada
That's the same one that I downloaded.

The fact that his video series on this is now private tells me that he must have changed his thinking regarding who makes up the 24 Elders.

I asked what happened to those videos on his Secrets Unsealed You Tube page.
Originally Posted By: dedication
There is a link to a paper but it seems hugely condensed and changed from what I remember it being earlier.

Link to Steve Bohr's paper on the 24 elders.
.


This quote I didn't see which I know was in his original:

There is the throne (Rev 4:2), and around it the rainbow of promise (Rev 4:3). There are cherubim and seraphim (Rev 4:6-8). The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled (Rev 4:4, 10). The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, therepresentatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,—all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 832.15}


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Daryl] #149239
01/27/13 10:28 PM
01/27/13 10:28 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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Posts: 24,541
Nova Scotia, Canada
According to the link to Pastor Stephen Bohr's written material, quoted below, the 24 Elders are representatives of all the inhabited planets:
Quote:
According to the Spirit of Prophecy, the 24 elders are powerful angels to whom God as delegated the responsibility of being representatives of the worlds that never sinned. Notice the following statements:

“This roll was written within and without. John says: "I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon" [verse 4]. The vision as presented to John made its impression upon his mind. The destiny of every nation was contained in that book. John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic intelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly, said, "Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" [verse 5].” Manuscript Releases, volume 12, pp. 296, 297

In its original Biblical context the words of verse 5 are spoken by one of the twenty-four elders but Ellen White identifies the elder as ‘one of the strong angels.’


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Daryl] #149240
01/27/13 10:35 PM
01/27/13 10:35 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
OP
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 24,541
Nova Scotia, Canada
Here's another interesting quote:
Quote:
Conclusion: Satan stole the position which rightfully belonged to Adam who was the legitimate representative of the planet. He usurped Adam’s rightful throne. This is the reason why Jesus called Satan “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31). When Adam chose to obey Satan, he became Satan’s subject for we are subjects of the master whom we choose to obey (Romans 6:16)

For additional evidence that the universe is governed by a heavenly council see 2 Chronicles 18:18-22.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Daryl] #149247
01/28/13 03:29 PM
01/28/13 03:29 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,877
Midland
Originally Posted By: Daryl
That's the same one that I downloaded.

The fact that his video series on this is now private tells me that he must have changed his thinking regarding who makes up the 24 Elders.
Why is that the only conclusion to be made? Looks like if he changed his mind, he would just remove it completely and there would be no evidence it ever existed. Or, just change the video with no comment and no one would be the wiser.

Who can access private videos, why would changing his mind still allow some to access it? I'm just suggesting to get all the facts before concluding things which may not be true.


Originally Posted By: dedication

This quote I didn't see which I know was in his original:

There is the throne (Rev 4:2), and around it the rainbow of promise (Rev 4:3). There are cherubim and seraphim (Rev 4:6-8). The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled (Rev 4:4, 10). The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, therepresentatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,—all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 832.15}

Quote:
There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 834.1}

Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: kland] #149253
01/28/13 05:06 PM
01/28/13 05:06 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Some think that TV can prove anything.

Stephen Bohr makes up his mind about when those resurrected with Christ went to heaven without support. Perhaps he ought to read his Bible?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Daryl] #149255
01/28/13 06:07 PM
01/28/13 06:07 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,153
Brazil
Originally Posted By: Daryl
According to the link to Pastor Stephen Bohr's written material, quoted below, the 24 Elders are representatives of all the inhabited planets:
Quote:
According to the Spirit of Prophecy, the 24 elders are powerful angels to whom God as delegated the responsibility of being representatives of the worlds that never sinned. Notice the following statements:

“This roll was written within and without. John says: "I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon" [verse 4]. The vision as presented to John made its impression upon his mind. The destiny of every nation was contained in that book. John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic intelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly, said, "Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" [verse 5].” Manuscript Releases, volume 12, pp. 296, 297

In its original Biblical context the words of verse 5 are spoken by one of the twenty-four elders but Ellen White identifies the elder as ‘one of the strong angels.’

This is very interesting. I hadn't noticed before that EGW refers to them as angels. I've found three more references related to the subject. Rev. 7:13, 14 says that one of the elders spoke to John, but in these passages EGW refers to him as an angel:

John beholds an innumerable company, precious, refined, purified, around the throne of the Majesty of Heaven. The angel inquires of John, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?" and John answers, "Sir, thou knowest." Then the angel declares: "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." {ST, December 22, 1887 par. 7}

As John saw the multitude standing around the throne of God, the question was asked, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"--"These are they which came out of great tribulation," the angel answered, "and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." {ST, April 17, 1901 par. 18; ST, November 22, 1905 par. 3}

It is the truth of God received in the heart and practiced in the life that makes man thus precious in the sight of God. As John sees this precious company refined and purified around the throne of God, the angel inquires, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?" And John answers, "Sir, thou knowest." And the angel answers, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them" [Revelation 7:13-15]. {1SAT 35.2}

So it seems clear that the 24 elders are angels. What doesn't seem so clear is that they are "powerful angels to whom God has delegated the responsibility of being representatives of the worlds that never sinned." This conclusion can't be inferred from the passages themselves - it's pastor Bohr's private opinion.

Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Rosangela] #149257
01/28/13 07:35 PM
01/28/13 07:35 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Bohr seems to make quite a point of that those resurrected with Christ could not have been there in heaven when Jesus came "home". As far as I can see this point is not substantiated, but is Bohr's own opinion.

That these "angels" should be representatives from other worlds is also his private opinion.

Last edited by Johann; 01/28/13 07:36 PM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: kland] #149262
01/29/13 02:04 AM
01/29/13 02:04 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 24,541
Nova Scotia, Canada
As I also have an You Tube account, only the account holder can see their own uploaded videos when they have been set to private mode from public mode.

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Daryl
That's the same one that I downloaded.

The fact that his video series on this is now private tells me that he must have changed his thinking regarding who makes up the 24 Elders.
Why is that the only conclusion to be made? Looks like if he changed his mind, he would just remove it completely and there would be no evidence it ever existed. Or, just change the video with no comment and no one would be the wiser.

Who can access private videos, why would changing his mind still allow some to access it? I'm just suggesting to get all the facts before concluding things which may not be true.


Originally Posted By: dedication

This quote I didn't see which I know was in his original:

There is the throne (Rev 4:2), and around it the rainbow of promise (Rev 4:3). There are cherubim and seraphim (Rev 4:6-8). The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled (Rev 4:4, 10). The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, therepresentatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,—all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 832.15}

Quote:
There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 834.1}



In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Daryl] #149268
01/29/13 06:57 AM
01/29/13 06:57 AM
D
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5000+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,005
Canada
I think Bohr has "kind of" changed his mind on the subject.

That link I posted does not contain the same material that was on his site about three years ago.

It appears that either someone sent him the quotes where EGW uses the word "angel" instead of "one of the 24 elders" or he himself came across them, and that caused him to change his webpage and privatize his video. Though there is still a bit of his former thoughts -- angels representing unfallen worlds is sort of a compromise for his earlier idea.

Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: dedication] #149269
01/29/13 07:08 AM
01/29/13 07:08 AM
D
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5000+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,005
Canada
Earlier ideas: Sept. 2010
Quote:
Key points:
1.The morning stars and sons of God existed BEFORE creation. See Job 38:1-7
◦The stars are angels (Rev 12:3, 9)
◦The sons of God are kings of their planets - worlds (Job 1:6, 7)
--1.They do not always live where God is
--2.Satan came along with them showing he is their peer or contemporary
--3.Satan came representing planet earth (implying the sons of God represent other planets)

2.Satan was among the sons of God because he believed the earth was given to him (Luke 4:5-6)
◦When Adam obeyed Satan, Satan became his master and Adam his slave (Romans 6:16)

3.The universe is ruled by a council. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22, Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4:1-7 (use NKJV)

4.Adam is an original son of God (Luke 3:38, Patriarchs & Prophets page 45)

5.The king is crowned and given his territory (Psalm 8:3-5; Review & Herald, Feb 24, 1874)
Who are the 24 elders?
---1.The are seated on thrones (not seats as the KJV said. Same Greek word is used for God's throne)
---2.They are clothed in white raiment
---3.They have crowns on their heads
---4.In the Desire of Ages pages 833 - 835 they are identified as the sons of God - the representatives of the unfallen worlds.


A Process of Elimination (who they are not)

* They are not cherubim and seraphim because they are distinguished from the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4, 10)
* They are not part of the angelic hosts because they are distinguished from them (5:12) and they are in heaven before the angelic hosts arrive (Revelation 4)
* They are not members of the unnumbered host of the redeemed because one of the elders asks John who the great multitude from every nation, kindred, people and tongue is (Revelation 7:13) Significantly the elders sing about the redeemed “from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Revelation 5:9) and in Revelation 7 one of the elders is asked about the identity of those who belong to all nations, and kindreds, and people and tongues.” (Revelation 7:9)

* They are not part of the 144,000 because they 144,000 are distinguished from them (Revelation 14:3)
* They are not those who resurrect in the special resurrection (Daniel 12:2) because they were in heaven when Jesus ascended (Revelation 4)
* They are not those who will resurrect in the general resurrection because they were in heaven when Jesus ascended (I Thessalonians 4:15-17)
* They are not those who resurrected with Jesus because the twenty-four elders were already there before Jesus arrived (Revelation 4)
* So they are not angelic and they are not human. They must be some other order of being.

The timing of Revelation 4 and 5
1.Revelation 4 shows the throne room of God BEFORE Jesus returns from earth after His crucifixion

2.Revelation 5 shows the Father with the scroll with seven seals. This is seen as the title deed to earth.

◦ An interesting Old Testament parallel is in 2 Kings 11 where Athaliah murdered the kings sons and usurped the throne for six years. (Note that Satan murdered the King's sons and ruled earth for 6000 years). In the seventh year (verse 4) the high priest manoeuvres to get the baby son who was hidden (Satan tried to kill Jesus as a baby but He was hidden) to be crowned as king. Here is the record:

◦And he brought out the king's son, put the crown on him, and gave him the Testimony; they made him king and anointed him, and they clapped their hands and said, “Long live the king!” (2 Kings 11:12)

◦Note that he was given the testimony as required.
■Deuteronomy 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
■Deuteronomy 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

3.Revelation 5 shows that initially no one was worthy to take the scroll - the title deed to earth. Then later Jesus, the Lamb that was slain, was shown to be worthy. Then He came and took the scroll and began to open the seals. The first seal showed the victorious years of the apostolic age.

4.Revelation 4 is thus before the ascension of Jesus (and at His anointing in Heaven as High Priest the anointing oil was so plentiful it fell down all the way to the disciples [who were in one accord - harmony] at Pentecost. Psalms 133:1-3 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.)

5.The 24 elders were waiting on Jesus with the 4 living creatures (beasts) who are seraphim, for they have six wings. With the Father, this is the heavenly council.

6.KJV, NKJV had problem with translation of Revelation 5:8-10 (us, we)
◦KJV: Revelation 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

◦This mistranslation is corrected in reputable modern versions:

Revelation 5:9-10 (New International Version)
“And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."”

Revelation 5:9-10 (New American Standard)
“And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."”

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