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Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
#151586
04/06/13 01:33 AM
04/06/13 01:33 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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This conversation was begun between JAK and myself in another thread, a portion of which I place in the text box below. The question came up as to why or why not should one accept Mrs. White as a prophet. I'm especially interested in JAK's or in anyone else's perspective as to why they might not choose to accept her writings as inspired. Just curious, GC, as to why Johann can't use Ellen White in his response. Or do you consider Ellen White in the category of sola scriptura? I consider her writings to be scripture. If I say want to distinguish between them, I use "Bible" and "Mrs. White." Both are part of the "spirit of prophecy." I would be happy to have Johann post support for his view from Mrs. White's writings. I think he does not do so because she does not support his view the way he would like. Mrs. White was abundantly clear on the headship issue. She criticizes ungodly men for lording it over their wives when they themselves are not subject to Christ, but completely upholds the husband's place as the head of the house when he is subject to Christ. This is balanced, and according to the Bible. Blessings, Green Cochoa. I consider her writings to be scripture. If I say want to distinguish between them, I use "Bible" and "Mrs. White." Both are part of the "spirit of prophecy." For the record, I categorically reject the inclusion of the writings of Ellen White, whatever you term her, as part of Scripture. I would be happy to have Johann post support for his view from Mrs. White's writings. I think he does not do so because she does not support his view the way he would like. Sounds to me like you are judging his motives... For the record, I categorically reject the inclusion of the writings of Ellen White, whatever you term her, as part of Scripture. For the record, the Bible itself defines what scripture is. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Timothy 3:16)
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:20-21) According to the Bible, scripture is given under inspiration of God. Was Ellen White inspired? Very definitely. Are her writings suitable for reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness? I hold that they are, and God Himself has tasked Ellen White with all of these things, often bringing special messages to individuals of correction and reproof. Unless you believe that the Holy Spirit can somehow inspire one person less than another, as if there were two different "levels" of "Holy Spirit," how could one see two different prophets and think one wrote "scripture" and the other's writings were common and ordinary? According to Jesus, the greatest prophet was John the Baptist. He did not write anything. Ellen White wrote more than any Bible author, including Moses and Paul and all of the Bible authors put together. She called her writings the "lesser light leading to the greater light of the Bible." The Bible is also the lesser light leading to the greater light. The "greater light of the Bible" is Jesus. There is none greater than He. He gave us the same message in John 5:39, saying "Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." Jesus is saying the scriptures are lesser and lead to Himself. As Ellen White was inspired by God to write the things which she wrote, her writings are equal to those of other Bible authors who were likewise inspired by God. All prophets are like the moon, the lesser light. They can only reflect that which is given them by God. Jesus is as the sun, the greater light--the source of all light and truth. This is why I accept that Ellen White's writings are scripture. This is why her statements on headship, the topic for this thread, are valid and important, just as they would be for any other topic on which she may have written. Blessings, Green Cochoa. Was Ellen White inspired? Very definitely. This is YOUR OPINION, which I don't happen to share. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#151590
04/06/13 04:00 AM
04/06/13 04:00 AM
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FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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Green Cochoa, I'm glad you started a thread on EGW. I don't mind talking about her and her role, if only to clarify for myself how I think about her. It's a complex issue usually involving a lot of bagggage.
I would like this conversation to proceed in a respectful manner, understanding that we two have differing views on the subject. I respect your position on her, and assume that you do the same for mine.
However, you or I can not assume that we make the same assumptions, and things that are a given to you are highly questionable to me. Therefore, all our statements must be backed up by some kind of authority, never assuming that the other will accept them carte blanch.
If others want to join the discussion I'm OK with that, but I will not put up with asinine inuendo regarding my Christianity or intelligence, or with stupidity. If it degrades to that I will simply drop out; or we can continue as a PM thread.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: JAK]
#151593
04/06/13 07:40 AM
04/06/13 07:40 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Let me first state that I was brought up from my early childhood on daily readings from the Bible and the writings of Ellen G White, so I learned to love and respect the Spirit of Prophecy as a special gift to the church.
When I started preparing for the ministry back in 1948 I attended a wonderful school where several of our classes used books by Ellen White as textbooks, and this is probably one reason why my English to some extent is the English of Ellen White, and I use some of her vocabulary.
When I continued my education at Emmanuel Missionary College our teachers used the writings of Ellen White and her interpretation of Scripture. It has been my privilege to meet a number of people who knew, worked with, and even lived at the home of Ellen White. Through the years I have obtained a copy of every book or pamphlet available by Mrs. White and used these extensively in my studies and sermon preparations. Before I got my first PC her Index was one of my greatest tools, because I always wanted to make sure of not presenting ideas that were contrary to the instructions given by Ellen, and this is still my aim.
At the same time I have also attempted to follow her instructions how to use her writings and the writings of the Bible. In this area I have detected a great danger, and I might give some samples of this in other posts.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: JAK]
#151594
04/06/13 08:45 AM
04/06/13 08:45 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Green Cochoa, I'm glad you started a thread on EGW. I don't mind talking about her and her role, if only to clarify for myself how I think about her. It's a complex issue usually involving a lot of bagggage.
I would like this conversation to proceed in a respectful manner, understanding that we two have differing views on the subject. I respect your position on her, and assume that you do the same for mine.
However, you or I can not assume that we make the same assumptions, and things that are a given to you are highly questionable to me. Therefore, all our statements must be backed up by some kind of authority, never assuming that the other will accept them carte blanch.
If others want to join the discussion I'm OK with that, but I will not put up with asinine inuendo regarding my Christianity or intelligence, or with stupidity. If it degrades to that I will simply drop out; or we can continue as a PM thread.
I would like for this conversation to remain respectful as well. We should be able to be courteous even with those with whom we disagree. I think it's appropriate to outline some key terms and make sure that we are on the same page with them. Obviously, at least so far, we have disagreed on the definition of scripture. For now, I would like to list a few terms that are often used to refer to Mrs. White's writings. If you do not agree with any of them, we can go with those that we agree on. These are terms used by either Mrs. White herself or others for her writings, and the list may not be comprehensive. In an attempt at clarity/disambiguation, I will list terms used for the Bible as well. Some will be held in common. Feel free to clarify which terms from both sides you would accept or not accept. I will not add "scripture" to Mrs. White for now, knowing that this term is not common and you have already disagreed with that one. Terms for Mrs. White's writings:Lesser light Testimonies Messages Terms for the BibleScriptures Testimonies Word of God Law and Prophets These lists are not comprehensive, of course. "Manuscripts," for example, can apply to either one, particularly when speaking of the original documents. I doubt you would disagree with this. So some terms will overlap. The following statement from Mrs. White is what prompts my concern for you, JAK, and is what motivates me to start this discussion with you. Frequently, people are so well convinced on something already as to make further discussion with them an unnecessary expense of time. I hope that this discussion will not be in vain, but that something positive will come of it. Again, here is the statement that gives me some concern for anyone who might choose to reject Mrs. White's writings. "If you lose confidence in the Testimonies you will drift away from Bible truth. I have been fearful that many would take a questioning, doubting position, and in my distress for your souls I would warn you. How many will heed the warning? As you now hold the Testimonies, should one be given crossing your track, correcting your errors, would you feel at perfect liberty to accept or reject any part or the whole? That which you will be least inclined to receive is the very part most needed." [VOL. 5, P. 98 (1882).] {5T 674.2} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#151595
04/06/13 09:41 AM
04/06/13 09:41 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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I would be happy to have Johann post support for his view from Mrs. White's writings. I think he does not do so because she does not support his view the way he would like.
Mrs. White was abundantly clear on the headship issue. She criticizes ungodly men for lording it over their wives when they themselves are not subject to Christ, but completely upholds the husband's place as the head of the house when he is subject to Christ. This is balanced, and according to the Bible.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
[quote]This is why I accept that Ellen White's writings are scripture. This is why her statements on headship, the topic for this thread, are valid and important, just as they would be for any other topic on which she may have written.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
In my previous post I gave my background to show on what basis I trust the writings of Ellen G White. I have noticed a great difference in your use, GC, of Ellen White and mine. As a starter let me just say that you give the impression of believing in "one sentence" inspiration while I have learned to rely on whole chapters or books in her writings. That is why I do not accept the rule you have made that everything stated here that does not agree with your opinions must be documented by a reference to prove your point. I find this impossible and based on wrong concepts of inspiration.
Last edited by Johann; 04/06/13 09:42 AM.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Johann]
#151598
04/06/13 11:01 AM
04/06/13 11:01 AM
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Just so everybody will know. From JAK's profile:Member of the SDA Church?: I am a Christian who chooses to fellowship with Seventh-day Adventists
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Daryl]
#151601
04/06/13 02:46 PM
04/06/13 02:46 PM
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FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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Thank you Daryl, for that clarification.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Daryl]
#151602
04/06/13 02:57 PM
04/06/13 02:57 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Johann - you espousing what EGW espoused. The Bible is its own expositor. Scripture is to be compared with scripture. The student should learn to view the word as a whole, and to see the relation of its parts. He should gain a knowledge of its grand central theme, of God's original purpose for the world, of the rise of the great controversy, and of the work of redemption. He should understand the nature of the two principles that are contending for supremacy, and should learn to trace their working through the records of history and prophecy, to the great consummation. He should see how this controversy enters into every phase of human experience; how in every act of life he himself reveals the one or the other of the two antagonistic motives; and how, whether he will or not, he is even now deciding upon which side of the controversy he will be found. {Ed 190.2}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: JAK]
#151603
04/06/13 03:01 PM
04/06/13 03:01 PM
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FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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Although others are welcome to respectfully add their perspective, this conversation is primarily between Green Cochoa and me. I will read all the posts, but I may not respond to everything.
Johann, I have always found you to be balanced, polite, and respectful in your views. I appreciate that, even if I sometimes don't agree with what you post.
I recognize that I am deep in enemy territory, (so to speak, don't take that literaly) and will have to defend my position without support from anyone else. I'm OK with that. It's a beautiful reflection of my life in the church...
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: JAK]
#151604
04/06/13 03:09 PM
04/06/13 03:09 PM
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FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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I would also note that I try to keep my posts short and managable, and I get bogged down reading long posts that are more like disertations. They usually contain too many points that need addressing to be helpful.
I WILL NOT go to some link or outside web page and read this or that marvelous explanation of some dogma or theolgy. Yes, I will check references, but I want to know what YOU think. Posts containing cut-and-paste quotes willy-nilly without a comment from the poster regarding what they mean will be ignored.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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