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Re: Question on creation of man [Re: kland] #151962
04/17/13 07:44 PM
04/17/13 07:44 PM
Avalee  Offline OP
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Northern CA
Thanks Kland for the advise. I think that is a bit over my head and I would not know the answers either. To me what the Bible and the backup from the Spirit of Prophecy is enough. I have overheard him in an arguement with another man about something and I sure dont want to go that far with him.

Re: Question on creation of man [Re: Avalee] #151963
04/17/13 09:17 PM
04/17/13 09:17 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline

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The Orient
I'm not sure that Adam contained all of the races. In a sense, of course he did father all races. But there was one special event that I believe added or adjusted genetic information after the original creation--Cain's curse. I don't have any way of proving this, but it seems quite logical in light of the information we do have. Here's the theory: Adam is created of a ruddy appearance and has children like him (the Bible says "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image..."). Then Cain murdered his brother, and under God's curse is afraid, so God marks him. "And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him." I believe God changed Cain's color. This may have changed the DNA as well, for we have a race of people which all goes back to him.

Mrs. White represents God's treatment of Cain as being a special lesson to the universe.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Notwithstanding that Cain had by his crimes merited the sentence of death, a merciful Creator still spared his life, and granted him opportunity for repentance. But Cain lived only to harden his heart, to encourage rebellion against the divine authority, and to become the head of a line of bold, abandoned sinners. This one apostate, led on by Satan, became a tempter to others; and his example and influence exerted their demoralizing power, until the earth became so corrupt and filled with violence as to call for its destruction. {PP 78.1}
In sparing the life of the first murderer, God presented before the whole universe a lesson bearing upon the great controversy. The dark history of Cain and his descendants was an illustration of what would have been the result of permitting the sinner to live on forever, to carry out his rebellion against God. The forbearance of God only rendered the wicked more bold and defiant in their iniquity. Fifteen centuries after the sentence pronounced upon Cain, the universe witnessed the fruition of his influence and example, in the crime and pollution that flooded the earth. It was made manifest that the sentence of death pronounced upon the fallen race for the transgression of God's law was both just and merciful. The longer men lived in sin, the more abandoned they became. The divine sentence cutting short a career of unbridled iniquity, and freeing the world from the influence of those who had become hardened in rebellion, was a blessing rather than a curse. {PP 78.2}


According to that quote, Cain and his descendants were the ones responsible for bringing God to the point of destroying sinners in the Flood. About Seth and Cain, Mrs. White says more.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Abel had led a pastoral life, dwelling in tents or booths, and the descendants of Seth followed the same course, counting themselves "strangers and pilgrims on the earth," seeking "a better country, that is, an heavenly." Hebrews 11:13, 16. {PP 81.1}
For some time the two classes remained separate. The race of Cain, spreading from the place of their first settlement, dispersed over the plains and valleys where the children of Seth had dwelt; and the latter, in order to escape from their contaminating influence, withdrew to the mountains, and there made their home. So long as this separation continued, they maintained the worship of God in its purity. But in the lapse of time they ventured, little by little, to mingle with the inhabitants of the valleys. This association was productive of the worst results. "The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair." The children of Seth, attracted by the beauty of the daughters of Cain's descendants, displeased the Lord by intermarrying with them. Many of the worshipers of God were beguiled into sin by the allurements that were now constantly before them, and they lost their peculiar, holy character. Mingling with the depraved, they became like them in spirit and in deeds; the restrictions of the seventh commandment were disregarded, "and they took them wives of all which they chose." The children of Seth went "in the way of Cain" (Jude 11); they fixed their minds upon worldly prosperity and enjoyment and neglected the commandments of the Lord. Men "did not like to retain God in their knowledge;" they "became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." Romans 1:21. Therefore "God gave them over to a mind void of judgment." Verse 28, margin. Sin spread abroad in the earth like a deadly leprosy. {PP 81.2}


She speaks of "the descendants of Seth" and "the race of Cain." This implies that Cain's progeny looked different. This is further reinforced in that the sons of Seth later look upon the daughters of Cain and see them as especially beautiful. There was obviously something of a difference with them in their appearance.

I believe that God made Cain dark, to illustrate his dark deeds to the universe. I believe his race was represented after the Flood via Ham's wife. Ham's son Canaan received the curse of Noah and of God, delayed a few generations, of being a servant to the sons of Shem and of Japheth. When one considers the race which has been most "servant" to other races, the black race is almost universally recognized to fulfill this prophecy. I believe their color goes back to Cain.

All of our modern races have come from the sons and daughters-in-law of Noah. In several hundred generations, the appearance of mankind and the races of them has had opportunity to evolve/devolve. We have grown weaker, smaller, and less long-lived over time, in addition to developing more distinctive appearances in certain regions based on restrictive selection in the gene pool.

There is certainly no evidence in God's Word for there having been more than just Adam and Eve in the original creation. It was not a sin for their sons to marry their sisters. In the beginning, genetics were strong. Later, with weaker genetics, marrying a close kin would produce genetic weakness or defects, and was therefore prohibited.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson

Error is never harmless. It never sanctifies, but always brings confusion and dissension. -- Ellen White

The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. ...Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." -- Ellen White
Re: Question on creation of man [Re: Green Cochoa] #151964
04/17/13 11:34 PM
04/17/13 11:34 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
There is certainly no evidence in God's Word for there having been more than just Adam and Eve in the original creation.

And there is absolutely no evidence that God made Cain dark. This is total fantasy in your own mind.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Question on creation of man [Re: APL] #151987
04/18/13 01:46 PM
04/18/13 01:46 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
But APL, what if we don't like black people? See, they are the cause for the curse of the earth, they are the cause for the flood, and since they are cursed, we can treat them lower than humans. Never mind there are other races. Never mind genetic damage, genetic weakness, and genetic defects usually result in lack of something (pigments) rather than an increase of something. If we don't like black people, we can insert things, compare English words (for we all know God was white and spoke English, right) and make them appear as other English words regardless of what the underlying words are. If we don't like black people, then what does anything else matter besides our own personal bias?

Re: Question on creation of man [Re: kland] #152005
04/19/13 04:13 AM
04/19/13 04:13 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
kland - I hear ya!

EGW on the topic:

"The fact that their skin is dark does not prove that they are sinners above the white race." {SW 35.1}.

And

"Many of the slaves had noble minds, but the fact that their skin was dark, was sufficient reason for the whites to treat them as though they were beasts." {SW 43.1}

And:
"Ask yourselves if Christ would make any difference. In assembling His people would He say, Here brother, or, Here sister, your nationality is not Jewish; you are of a different class. Would He say, Those who are dark-skinned may file into the back seats; those of a lighter skin may come up to the front seats. {TSA 85.3}

In one place the proposition was made that a curtain be drawn between the coloured people and the white people. I asked, Would Jesus do that? This grieves the heart of Christ. The colour of the skin is no criterion as to the value of the soul. By the mighty cleaver of truth we have all been quarried out from the world. God has taken us, all classes, all nations, all languages, all nationalities, and brought us into His workshop, to be prepared for His temple. {TSA 85.4}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Question on creation of man [Re: APL] #152006
04/19/13 04:51 AM
04/19/13 04:51 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline

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The Orient
Amen to all of those quotes, APL. Thank you.

Some of my best friends are blacks, Asians, hispanics and whites. I don't really look at skin colors much, to be honest. There have been times when I honestly could not recall someone's skin color when I went to describe them to others. (This surprised and challenged even me, because it seems such a basic term in describing someone--I felt embarrassed that I couldn't even remember their color.)

I work in multi-ethnic, multi-cultural and multi-lingual areas and circumstances. All people have the same needs and challenges, though sometimes specific needs and challenges are more highlighted in one region than in another.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson

Error is never harmless. It never sanctifies, but always brings confusion and dissension. -- Ellen White

The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. ...Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." -- Ellen White
Re: Question on creation of man [Re: Green Cochoa] #152144
04/26/13 08:05 PM
04/26/13 08:05 PM
A
Augustus  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 13
UK
Green Cochoa, you analysis is based on: supposition, prejudice, lack of spiritual insight and void of love. I do hope that this kind of conversation,does not take place around your dinner table. One must be very careful when interpreting the scriptures.
Jesus said, 'However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.' John 16:13. Can you honestly say, that The Spirit Of GOD lead you to this conclusion. Was your study based on prayful reading of the bible and spirit of prophecy?
Furthermore, you stated that{I'm not sure that Adam contained all of the races}; before giving your ill informed views, should you not of spend the time very careful researching your topic.
The BIBLE clarly states: [Malachi 2:10 - 'Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?'. 'From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands'. Acts 17:16]
You stated-' But there was one special event that I believe added or adjusted genetic information after the original creation'- 'I believe God changed Cain's color': There is a little known principle,that one must adhere to when interpreting scripture{The bible explains itself-you will do well if adherence is paid to this principle. Imagine if the Bible or Spirit of Prophecy used the phrase, I believe rather The Lord GOD said}.
I always find it rather instructive, when evolutionary terms find there way in christian discourse:'for we have a race of people which all goes back to him'. I am here referencing your use of the word...RACE. The bible description for the human family is: 'And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people' Revelation 14:6. Whenever bible believing Christians, borrows/uses evolutionay terminology, i.e., races when referring to fellow humans, then we are consciously/unconsciously
supporting this satantic world view. Lord Jesus said' By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.' John 13:35. And yes I am aware that Sister White used this term, however, at that time it did not have any evolutionary overtones.
'I believe that God made Cain dark, to illustrate his dark deeds to the universe'-perhaps you are unware of this description of Our Lord GOD Jesus Christ' And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass.' Revelation 2:18. My reading is... fine brass/burnished bronze is dark.
I rode this in love
Thank You

Re: Question on creation of man [Re: Augustus] #152148
04/27/13 01:02 AM
04/27/13 01:02 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline

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The Orient
Augustus,

I'm sure your post is well intentioned. Please be certain that my posts here are as well. I do base what I share on scripture. The Bible says God marked Cain so that anyone finding him would be afraid to kill him. What kind of mark? You know as little about that as I do. We cannot be sure. But one thing we can be certain of: it was visible and obvious to everyone else. Another thing we can be sure of: he looked different after God marked him. Furthermore, we see Mrs. White speaking of the "race of Cain." I'm using my God-given powers of reason to see a trend here. If God did it, why would it be evil?

God created the confusion of languages. Am I prejudiced to recognize this?

I have been around the world much. I know multiple languages, having lived in multiple cultures. I have observed that the single largest cause of prejudice in our world is not skin color--it is language. Am I now "prejudiced" or do I now "lack spiritual insight" to recognize this fact? If you think so, contemplate carefully the following passage by Mrs. White where she makes a similar observation relative to human languages.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
There is one God, one faith, one baptism. There is one Lord Jesus, who must abide in the soul of every one of these brethren. When the brethren of one nationality separate themselves from the brethren of another nationality, to build up a separate interest, they are doing that which God never designed should be done. The very same truth which sanctifies my heart will sanctify the hearts of brethren of other nations. The fact that my brethren and sisters are obliged to talk another language is no reason that their characters should not be fashioned according to the one true Pattern, Christ Jesus. In order to be fitted for heaven they need the same discipline that I need. It is because our foreign brethren have thought the work must be carried on to suit the peculiarities and prejudices of the people that the cause of present truth has not advanced as it should have advanced during these years. {RH, November 12, 1889 par. 8}
Some have thought that you must labor for the Germans in a different way from the way in which you work for the French or English; but the Germans need to learn at the foot of the cross the same lessons that the French must learn there. We have but one Saviour, and but one cross of Calvary. We have but one school in which to learn the lesson of humility. Christ has said, "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls; for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." It is at the cross of Calvary that we all must meet, and learn meekness and lowliness of heart. {RH, November 12, 1889 par. 9}
My French brethren have many lessons to learn from the great Teacher. Christ says to them, "Take my yoke upon you, lift my burdens." Christ says to the Germans, "Come unto me, and ye shall find rest unto your souls." He says to the English, "Take my yoke, bear my burden, learn of me, and ye shall find rest." The yoke of Christ never galls the neck of the wearer. It is the yoke of our own manufacture that is heavy and unendurable. It is when you are not willing to bear the yoke with Christ that you find the burden grievous. {RH, November 12, 1889 par. 10}
As you learn the lesson of meekness, as you become one with Christ as he is one with the Father, you will draw together. The brethren of different nationalities will have but one interest and hope and work. You will not feel that because the French have habits of thought and action to which you are not accustomed, you must divorce your interests from theirs. The Germans will not feel that because they have some good ideas and customs, they can never learn of others. Every follower of Christ must come to the foot of the cross. I must not say to my French brother, "You stand on that side of the cross, because that is your place," and to my German brother, "You stand on that side, and I will stand on this side because I am English." We must seek for unity and harmony. We should seek for the deep movings of the Spirit of God, that the sweet spirit of Christ may blend heart with heart. When we reach this union, God will let his rich blessing rest upon us as he let it rest upon the disciples on the day of Pentecost, and then we shall be able to go forth to proclaim the message of love and mercy to all nations. We must all drink at the same fountain; for Christ has said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." If we all partake of the same nourishment, we shall all have the same testimony to bear. I cannot see that the experience of our German brethren differs from the experience of our French or English brethren. And why should there be a difference in the experience of the children of God? {RH, November 12, 1889 par. 11}
The idea that there must be a difference in the manner of presenting and carrying forward the work in different nations, must be dispelled from our minds. There must be no separate interest. Distinctions must be broken down, that we may all meet together as brethren of the same household. And this unity must exist before the foreign work will have the strength that it is possible for it to have. {RH, November 12, 1889 par. 12}
Our work is to elevate one another as brethren. We are to feel a Christian interest for one another and for every one,--for Germans, French, Italians, English, Scandinavians,--for souls of all nationalities. All who name the name of Christ are to be one in him. Then do not divide the body, but seek to worship God together as brethren. If there is a brother of another nationality in your meeting, take especial interest in him, and invite him to take part in the service. If there is no one who can interpret the stranger's words, this need not deter him from taking part, for God understands all languages, and he will write his testimony and his name in the book of his remembrance. The spirit he manifests will make its impression upon hearts, although the words he utters cannot be comprehended. {RH, November 12, 1889 par. 13}


Mrs. White was not prejudiced. But she recognized the prejudicial barriers built up by differences in language among peoples. I also recognize this, and I, as a missionary of the Gospel, do not wish to harbor the least form of prejudice against anyone--for God loves every soul.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson

Error is never harmless. It never sanctifies, but always brings confusion and dissension. -- Ellen White

The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. ...Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." -- Ellen White
Re: Question on creation of man [Re: Green Cochoa] #152150
04/27/13 06:54 AM
04/27/13 06:54 AM
A
Augustus  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 13
UK
Green Cochoa, happy Sabbath from London UK.
My point is, we do not know what this mark was and as such, should not speculate. The bible and spirit of prophecy is silent on what that mark was {The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.' Deut. 29:29}. By making assumptions, we are only dishonouring Our Loving Lord and GOD. I know that you would agree with this.
Now, as a case in point, are you aware that, this bible text amongst others, were used by Europeans to justify the enslavement of Africans...because their supposition was that, this mark was dark skin. We always should allow the bible to explain itself{'For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little' Isaiah 28:10; 'Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:1}.
In reference to Sister White's use of 'the race of Cain', as stated earlier, the connotation here is sociological i.e.,{societal/cultural} and not evolutionary biological. There is a huge difference.
I did not comment on the linguistic aspects because some research have shown considerable commonality amongst languages. Thus favouring a common ancestor language and thereby, lends support to the accuracy of the Genesis account.
I do very strongly believe that, as representatives foremost of Our Lord Jesus Christ and then, the human family, we ought not to use such terms as RACE{it is purely an evolutionary construct in today's sinful world}, when referring to fellow human beings.
After all, are we not one in Christ Jesus{'There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus-Galatians 3:28 and 'So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith.' Galatians 3:26}.
Finally, you asserted, ['When one considers the race which has been most "servant" to other races, the black race is almost universally recognized to fulfill this prophecy. I believe their color goes back to Cain.']; this statement contains very little historical facts.
Yes their have been enslavement of Africans by greedy, lazy, unchristian and very cruel Europeans, whose only desire was to live the high life at the expense of fellow human misery. Gladly, this painful inhumane treatment experienced by other fellow human beings, whose minds were far more ennobled than their slave masters: lasted for a relatively short time{from the early 1500s to the mid to late 1800s}. And surely, the Lord Jesus would not of being pleased with the treatment received by his sons and daughters {"God is punishing this nation for the high crime of slavery. He has the destiny of the nation in His hands. He will punish the South for the sin of slavery, and the North for so long suffering its overreaching and overbearing influence." Ellen G. White, Testimonies Vol. 1, p. 264.}.
Prior to this sad and regrettable episode of human history, Africans ruled the would i.e Egyptians[personally I am not a fan of these Pharaohs, anyone who boastfully and arrogantly denies and defies The Lord GOD doesn't sit well with me, no respect for them or their accomplishment, not matter how grand]. Another is nimrod and his satanic exploits.
As far as I am aware, there has been no long history of servitude by people of colour.

GOD Bless

Re: Question on creation of man [Re: Green Cochoa] #152151
04/27/13 07:03 AM
04/27/13 07:03 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Language is a lot different that skin color.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Any man, be he minister or layman, who seeks to compel or control the reason of any other man, becomes an agent of Satan, to do his work, and in the sight of the heavenly universe he bears the mark of Cain. {PC 30.5}
Hm, does God then change the mans skin color or his language? I don't think so.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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