"Torah" means "teaching," "instruction." It denotes all the revealed will of God. The context may determine if it applies to something specific within God's instructions (the 10 commandments or the law of Moses) or to God's instructions in general (the whole OT). In the case of Isaiah 8:20 "torah" may be parallel to "testimony" (which is the whole Word of God), in which case it would apply to the whole revealed will of God (that is, the whole OT); or it may be complementary to "testimony," in which case it could apply specifically to the 10 commandments or to the Pentateuch.

The SDA Bible Commentary says that the Hebrew word for "law" in Isaiah 8:20 is "torah", denoting all the revealed of God.

The SDA Bible Commentary also says, "This [the torah] is the common Biblical term for the inspired writings of Scripture, particularly those of Moses (see on Num. 19:14; Deut. 4:44; 30:10; 31:9; Prov. 3:11; See Vol. I. pp. 37,38). Isaiah directs men away from the words and wisdom of devils and men to the revealed wisdom of God. The prophets of God were His witnesses or spokesmen, and the "testimony" they bore was His message of wisdom and life. Isaiah here directs men to the Word of God as the standard of truth and the guide to right living. God has revealed Himself in His Word. Whatever men may speak that is not in harmony with that Word has "no light" in it (see on ch. 50: 10,11)."

I moved several posts from here and created a new thread out of them for the reason that they were Off-Topic to the thread they were in, therefore, please create a new thread in the future instead of going completely off topic in this thread.

What does it matter whether I own a vineyard or what I do. This is no concern of yours. According to Deut 13, you test the prophet with what he says and not with what he does.

When Israel came out of Egypt at passover, the Lord brought them to the foot of Sinai where they were suppose to hear the Lord each one individuals to receive His word, commands, laws, and judgments. This event was on the day of Pentecost. They heard the introduction of the law (the 10 commandments) and then they ran pleading to Moses saying "AV Ex 20:19 "Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die." The fire of the Lord (hearing His laws and ways) was burning their carnal flesh and they were afraid to die. Like what some may say in our church "by hearing we become change". Well they couldn't bear any more, so they asked that Moses hear the remaining of His laws and have Moses speak it to them. By refusing to hear the Lord for themselve, they rejected the sword of the Spirit, and didn't enter the next stage of their spiritual growth which is only found when someone enters the Pentecost(hearing the voice of the Lord for themselves). Because they rejected the Spirit of the Almighty, the Law was given to them in a physical symbolic language. A language design for young children to teach and to point to greather things found in the spiritual realm and "heavenly" reality.

All the Laws of Moses are written in the physical realm that are Types and Shadows of the spiritual realm.

So, Kland, what you are bringing from the law, are the physical realm by which can be important to keep depending on the law and application. These may be important to keep in our lives but the most important aspect for us to understand and get from these laws is the spiritual equivalence and realities of these laws and their application in our life.

I'll give you one example : the law circumcision is described as a physical aspect however Moses himself showed that this law was only a type and shadow of something greater to come when he said, Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer, Deuteronomy 10:16, and, The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live, Deuteronomy 30:6. Jeremiah made the same connection between circumcision and true circumcision in chapter 4:4, Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.

So physcially circumcizing a child or a mature man could have health benefits, but the spiritual reality and vital importance of this law was not to be circumcized in the flesh, but rather to have our heart spiritually circumcized. No man(or woman) that is not spiritually circumcized cannot inherit the kingdom of God "that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant".(Gn 17:14).

All the laws of Moses are important and are still valid today. Besides having a physical realm pointing to a spiritual reality....all the laws have a prophetic realm also that most have some applications for us all in our life today too.

That's weird, 'Do as I say, not as I do...'


You said things were written in the law and we should keep them.
I asked you to give an example.
You chose the passage about sowing for six years, and olive and vineyards.
Then you complain. (or is it pick and choose?)

So now you are talking spiritual. But not what you said to the post I responded to. Or did you also say depending on how one picks and choose?

Oh yes, I think spiritually applying is what Paul talks about often.

Spiritually valid, you mean? So why are you talking about keeping them in the physical realm? Or is this a pick and choose thing and not "All the laws of Moses are important and are still valid today"?
(And not saying I didn't expect such)

The discussion at hand is about Is 8:20 --> how do we test whether doctrines, interpretations, or what a claim prophet(or not) what he’s saying is truth. This discussion is not about if we are to keep this part of the law physically or not. This would take much discussion & studying and it is off-topic.

However, reality is that all congregation including SDAs pick and choose things they want to keep in the law and say the rest are nail to the cross. I say none are nail to the cross. To answer briefly – the law has many dimensions :

Physical(or literal) : Most laws are to be applied literally, but there’s some that it is obviously no longer applicable, however this does not nail that law to the cross as the spiritual and the prophetic aspect of it is still to be fulfilled in all of us and in this world.

Here’s are some example of the laws to be applied literally: law of usury, law of liabilities, law of testing prophets, law of divorcement, law of forgiveness, law of equal measures, law of tree growing, law of tribulations, etc….

Here’s some examples of laws that would give us health benefits if we literally keep them would be the dietary laws, law of cleansings, for some circumcision, etc…

Example of some laws that are not physically observe today are the sacrificial services, however, all of these laws have deep spiritual meanings that all of us, royal priesthood in training, must keep daily. So none of these sacrificial laws are nailed to the cross and are still need to be kept spiritually. I know many will not understand or not agree but another discussion needs to be opened if anyone wants to tackle that question with the Bible.

Spiritual(or heavenly) : All laws have spiritual meanings and that is the most important aspects of any of the Laws of Moses. For example, we SDAs keep the Sabbath physically however, 99% of the SDAs do not understand the spiritual nor the prophetic meanings of the Sabbath. Many don’t understand the relationship of the other Sabbaths(Yearly, 8 Feasts Day Sabbath, and the Jubilee year Sabbath) with the weekly Sabbath. This is very shameful of us. I'm only starting to understand this right now so I'm including myself here in this shame.

All of the spiritual realm of the laws are to be understood, if not, then it is as if we do not observe that law at all like the Sabbath. The Lord is more preoccupied with us understanding the Spiritual aspect of any law and keep these very closely into our heart. The Spiritual meanings of these laws show the Lords character, His ways, His intends, and His plan how He will restore us all into His image and bring restitution of all things.

Prophetic : All the laws have a prophetic meaning and all will be fulfilled according to His word Not only once, nor not only in one dimension, but many times during different era and in many levels(Christ, firstfruits, Church, the world, etc…). The plan of salvation is written down with all the details given in the laws. Jesus said not one title or dot of the law will not pass until all is fulfilled. Any prophets are tested against the Law of Moses and that’s what Is 8:20, Deut 13 & 18, Jesus, disciples and apostles examples tells us.

Elle, you're waffling.


Hmmm. Most, obviously.... Hmm-hmm.

Shameful indeed.... for those who think such and do not properly keep their vineyard and oliveyard, letting it rest the 7th year. Could you please explain the spiritual aspects of such and for not sowing the sixth year?

As I was saying above.


Which is it, all laws or pick and choose?
Which is it, spiritual or physical (literal)?
You say none are done away with, but then you say don't do as you do or don't do.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Sounds to me your accusation to Daryl, you aren't keeping yourself. Excepting for only the pieces and bits you justify with doing. Not exactly worthy of one to go around saying others should keep "all" of the Jewish law.

I will agree with you that “Torah” can mean any instructions coming from the Lord(Pentateuch, or whole OT, or 10C, or even any specific instruction to us personally[my addition to your definition]), however when the Lord gave these words to Isaiah, it was to give clear instruction to the people how to test a message or any form of ideology or beliefs.

In Isaiah’s day’s and in Moses days, there were many prophets -- some false like Hannaniah and some true like Jeremiah. How were the people to know if the message spoken were truth from the Lord? They had to have something to test the message spoken against. The Lord gave us the Pentateuch which His Plan of "Restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began"(Acts 3:21) is depicted in great dept and witdth that Himself said that "not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished." Mat 5:18. He is following His plan given to Moses which was laid up since the world began. The Pentateuch is the only standard the Lord has given us where all coming messengers or prophets were to be tested against including Jesus Christ himself.

To save typing time here's an exerpt from our SDA brother, Myron, on Adventist Online.

“In Exodus 19:9: the Lord said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” .” Moses is the only prophet in scripture where the people were actually able to witness God speaking directly to him. Even with Ellen White and the signs that accompanied her visions no one actually saw God speaking to her… With Moses the entire assembly witnessed this from a distance and the 70 leaders along with Aaron and his sons Nadab and Abihu, and Moses personal assistant Joshua witnessed this at close hand. The purpose for witnessing that God spoke to Moses personally was so that everyone would put their trust in Moses; but it was also to establish Moses as the standard by which all other prophets were to be compared to determine whether they were true or false.

The symbolism of the dense cloud means that not everything will be clear, but still God spoke to Moses in the presence of the people to establish Moses as the authority to be consulted in all matters. Later in the Law of the Prophets in Deuteronomy 18 we read,

15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

17 The LORD said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

The people refused to hear God's voice for themselves after hearing the first 10 Commandments, and they demanded God speak through prophets instead. God agreed. All future prophets would be raised up for us among our brothers (or sisters) and yes, we are to listen to what they speak in God's name, but we are not supposed to give them a free pass on this. Verse 20 is clear that there will be those who claim to be speaking in God's name, but who do not and they are to be treated the same as those who speak openly in the name of other Gods. The statement "a prophet like you" is a specific point of law and says that all future prophets are to be compared to Moses.

The Law of the False Prophet clarifies this matter even more. In Deuteronomy 13 we read:

1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Since the commands of God had been passed down to the people through Moses it is his writings they are to refer to in searching out God's commands, and it is by this standard that all prophets are to be judged. As the early part of this passage states, even false prophets can be accompanied by signs and wonders, and even by foretelling events which come to pass. None of these are the reliable signs as to whether a prophet is true or false, only whether the prophet has been sent by God, which this law says is not the same thing as being a true prophet. Some false prophets are sent by God specifically to test you whether you love him and are loyal to him.

So, I will look first and foremost to the standard God set for us and which Jesus affirmed when he said in John 5, 45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

Elle, whether “law” here means the 10C, the Pentateuch, or the whole OT is irrelevant, because the second word, “testimony,” refers to the whole revealed will of God. So, in fact, the whole revealed will of God should be used to test a message or any form of ideology.

The Bible says that Christ nailed to the cross the "handwriting of ordinances" (Col. 2:14). It also says Christ abolished "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph. 2:15). What does the Bible refer to in these passages?