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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: asygo] #152705
05/31/13 01:24 PM
05/31/13 01:24 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
I don't have problem with the hereditary nature of sin, as evidenced by my many posts here.
Great. Then if it is inherited, it is in the DNA.

My cousin inherited money from her father. There are ways to inherit things not through DNA.
Money inheritance is a legal issue. Is sin a legal issue? Is disease caused by legal violations? I don't think so. And I don't think that EGW was thinking legal either. Do you???
Originally Posted By: EGW
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}
Was she speaking of a legal inheritance? Nope.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: APL] #152709
05/31/13 05:03 PM
05/31/13 05:03 PM
asygo  Offline
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California, USA
You completely missed the point. Let me clarifyt: just because you inherit something doesn't necessarily mean it was through DNA. Your fallacy is that since we inherit characteristics through DNA, it is necessarily true that we inherit ALL characteristics through DNA. One example is sufficient to disprove your premise.

The root of it is pride. You think that you know all there is to know about heredity. It is possible that you don't, especially since your "sin is in the DNA" theory can't account for how sin entered into the world through Adam but managed to infect the entire planet.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: APL] #152711
05/31/13 07:13 PM
05/31/13 07:13 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Was Jesus born under grace?

Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Define grace.

Grace is that which God offers to undeserving sinners to turn them into righteous saints.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: asygo] #152712
05/31/13 07:16 PM
05/31/13 07:16 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
But the point is that while the man of Rom 6:14 is not under law, Jesus was born under law. Whatever condition Jesus was in at birth, it was not the same as the man of Rom 6:14, who is not under the dominion of sin.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rick H] #152715
05/31/13 11:47 PM
05/31/13 11:47 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Rick H
No, because when we are born again, we have the same power to be transformed to be dead to sin in the path to sanctification, at what point the Holy Spirit is involved is moot as the end result is the same.

Let's consider that. John the Baptist was born filled with the Spirit. Was he in the same condition as Jesus was at birth? Were they equally holy?
That is a very good question. Would you say John also was born with all the affects of sin, when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. So then you have to decide what affect being filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb had.
I guess I have to find the section we were reading on the SOP to get to the heart of the matter, but look at the following as it clearly shows what the affects of the Holy Ghost are, and sanctification is from the Holy Ghost.....

'...True sanctification is a Bible doctrine. The apostle Paul, in his letter to the Thessalonian church, declares, “This is the will of God, even your sanctification.” And he prays, “The very God of peace sanctify you wholly.” [1 Thessalonians 4:3; 5:23.] The Bible clearly teaches what sanctification is, and how it is to be attained. The Saviour prayed for his disciples, “Sanctify them through thy truth; thy Word is truth.” [John 17:17, 19.] And Paul teaches that believers are to be “sanctified by the Holy Ghost.” [Romans 15:16.] What is the work of the Holy Spirit? Jesus told his disciples, “When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth.” [John 16:13.] And the psalmist says, “Thy law is the truth.” By the Word and the Spirit of God are opened to men the great principles of righteousness embodied in his law. And since the law of God is “holy, and just, and good,” a transcript of the divine perfection, it follows that a character formed by obedience to that law will be holy. Christ is a perfect example of such a character. He says, “I have kept my Father’s commandments.” “I do always those things that please him.” [John 15:10; 8:29.] The followers of Christ are to become like him,—by the grace of God, to form characters in harmony with the principles of his holy law. This is Bible sanctification.

This work can be accomplished only through faith in Christ, by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God'...The Great Controversy 1888, Page 469

http://text.egwwritings.org/publication....mp;resultId=165

So if from the womb that would explain how Christ had no propensities to sin, and yet this power is available to us, but do we partake of it. That is the question.

Last edited by Rick H; 05/31/13 11:50 PM.
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: asygo] #152716
05/31/13 11:47 PM
05/31/13 11:47 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Was Jesus born under grace?

Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Define grace.

Grace is that which God offers to undeserving sinners to turn them into righteous saints.
Offers what and how? Hint: Isaiah 53:11; Titus 3:5-7.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: APL] #152719
06/01/13 01:05 AM
06/01/13 01:05 AM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Define grace.

Grace is that which God offers to undeserving sinners to turn them into righteous saints.
Offers what and how? Hint: Isaiah 53:11; Titus 3:5-7.

I see that you don't have a definition of grace. You confuse grace with its method of delivery and its effects. Conflation again.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rick H] #152720
06/01/13 01:13 AM
06/01/13 01:13 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Rick H
So if from the womb that would explain how Christ had no propensities to sin, and yet this power is available to us, but do we partake of it. That is the question.

It is certainly crucial that we avail of His grace. If we don't, we are lost.

However, let's not confuse what He gives us and what He is. We will never be "little" Christs.

Consider John again. He was filled with the Spirit from the womb. Was he qualified to be the Christ, the Savior of sinners?

Let's take it down a few notches. Having started out filled with the Spirit, was it possible for John to avoid being tainted with sin his entire life, as Jesus did, and stand uncondemned by the requirements of the law, without the benefit of Christ's blood?

Let's take it down some more. Did John have propensities to sin?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: asygo] #152722
06/01/13 02:44 AM
06/01/13 02:44 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Hint: Isaiah 53:11; Titus 3:5-7.

I see that you don't have a definition of grace. You confuse grace with its method of delivery and its effects. Conflation again.
No definition of grace, and I provided that best one I know from scripture itself and you provide nothing for your side. Very interesting indeed.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: asygo] #152724
06/01/13 02:57 AM
06/01/13 02:57 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: asygo
You completely missed the point. Let me clarifyt: just because you inherit something doesn't necessarily mean it was through DNA. Your fallacy is that since we inherit characteristics through DNA, it is necessarily true that we inherit ALL characteristics through DNA. One example is sufficient to disprove your premise.

The root of it is pride. You think that you know all there is to know about heredity. It is possible that you don't, especially since your "sin is in the DNA" theory can't account for how sin entered into the world through Adam but managed to infect the entire planet.
I would agree with your diagnosis here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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