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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Norman] #152871
06/05/13 01:59 AM
06/05/13 01:59 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,112
Western, USA
Norman - Bingo - I love you man. Yes, the idea that God needs to be appeased, or that God needs to kill someone is very pagan. Yet, it is the foundation of perhaps the majority of Christians today, even SDAs.

EGW says, "sin caused the death of the Son of God." Sin. Not God. But read some of the latest threads here, and you will find that it was God that executed Christ.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: APL] #152872
06/05/13 02:18 AM
06/05/13 02:18 AM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,112
Western, USA
Norman - check out Isaiah 53:10 in the Septuagint.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:10 LXX And the LORD desires to purify him of the plague, if you would give him a sin offering, your soul will see long-lived posterity, and the Lord desired to take away.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: APL] #152875
06/05/13 02:40 AM
06/05/13 02:40 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline

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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
If the destruction of Jerusalem came as a result of God's withdrawn protection, and God had no other involvement beyond this, then how could it have been termed "punishment?" Does Satan "punish" his followers? Does sin "punish?"
Have your read Great Controversy pages 35 and 36? Does it say God actively destroyed Jerusalem? Where? EGW statement on page 35 says, "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God." This is Satan's claim. How is it any different than what you are saying?

You didn't answer my questions. Do you have answers?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Green Cochoa] #152876
06/05/13 03:05 AM
06/05/13 03:05 AM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,112
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
If the destruction of Jerusalem came as a result of God's withdrawn protection, and God had no other involvement beyond this, then how could it have been termed "punishment?" Does Satan "punish" his followers? Does sin "punish?"
Have your read Great Controversy pages 35 and 36? Does it say God actively destroyed Jerusalem? Where? EGW statement on page 35 says, "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God." This is Satan's claim. How is it any different than what you are saying?

You didn't answer my questions. Do you have answers?
Green Cochoa.
It is written: "James 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin; and sin when it has matured, brings forth death."

Now - how about answering some of my questions, if you can.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: APL] #152878
06/05/13 03:47 AM
06/05/13 03:47 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline

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The Orient
You are still trying to imply that sin will punish of itself, without God's involvement. But God will punish.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Of all the sins that God will punish, none are more grievous in His sight than those that encourage others to do evil. {CC 98.5}

Israel had almost reached the limit of divine forbearance; soon God would arise to punish those who had brought dishonor upon His name. ... {DG 44.2}

As sin became general, it appeared less and less sinful, and they finally declared that the divine law was no longer in force; that it was contrary to the character of God to punish transgression; and they denied that His judgments were to be visited upon the earth. Had the men of that generation obeyed the divine law, they would have recognized the voice of God in the warning of His servant; but their minds had become so blinded by rejection of light that they really believed Noah's message to be a delusion. {PP 95.3}


As it was in the days of Noah...

APL, your theology is a fulfillment of this prophecy. Yet God will punish. Perhaps not yet, but punishment will come.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Though God may not now punish the transgression of His law with temporal penalties, yet His word declares that the wages of sin is death; and in the final execution of the judgment it will be found that death is the portion of those who violate His sacred precepts. {PP 409.2}

...With joy Moses saw the law of God still honored and exalted by a faithful few. He saw the last great struggle of earthly powers to destroy those who keep God's law. He looked forward to the time when God shall arise to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and those who have feared His name shall be covered and hid in the day of His anger. He heard God's covenant of peace with those who have kept His law, as He utters His voice from His holy habitation and the heavens and the earth do shake. He saw the second coming of Christ in glory, the righteous dead raised to immortal life, and the living saints translated without seeing death, and together ascending with songs of gladness to the City of God. {PP 476.2}


So, Moses "looked forward to the time when God shall arise to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." It sounds certain to me. Why do you attribute to "sin" that which God will do?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Green Cochoa] #152879
06/05/13 04:02 AM
06/05/13 04:02 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,112
Western, USA
What you reject is the method of that punishment. Read Great Controversy 35 and 36. It is very plain there.

You say God executed Christ.

A few quotes from my collection:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Cease to cherish and excuse sin; for sin caused the death of the Son of God. {GW92 466.2}

He was slain by the sin of the world. {DA 772.2}

Expel sin from your hearts; for sin caused the death of the Son of God. {RH, July 22, 1884 par. 9}

While it is a disgrace to sin, it is no disgrace to confess sin, and to forsake it, as the hateful thing it is,--that which caused the death of the only begotten Son of God. {RH, December 9, 1890 par. 4}

Beholding Jesus upon the cross of Calvary arouses the conscience to the heinous character of sin as nothing else can do. It was sin that caused the death of God's dear Son, and sin is the transgression of the law. On him was laid the iniquities of us all. The sinner then consents unto the law that it is good; for he realizes that it condemns his evil deeds, while he magnifies the matchless love of God in providing for him salvation through the imputed righteousness of Him who knew no sin, in whose mouth there was found no guile. {RH, November 22, 1892 par. 9}

The Lord means what he says, and man cannot set aside his commands with impunity. The example of Adam and Eve in the garden should sufficiently warn us against any disobedience of the divine law. Their sin brought guilt and sorrow upon the world, and caused the death of the Son of God. He was subjected to insult, rejection, and crucifixion by the very ones he came to save. What infinite expense attended that disobedience in the garden of Eden. {SW, August 11, 1908 par. 7}

When the mind is drawn to the cross of Calvary, Christ by imperfect sight is discerned on the shameful cross. Why did He die? In consequence of sin. What is sin? The transgression of the law. Then the eyes are open to see the character of sin. The law is broken but cannot pardon the transgressor. It is our schoolmaster, condemning to punishment. Where is the remedy? The law drives us to Christ, who was hanged upon the cross that He might be able to impart His righteousness to fallen, sinful man and thus present men to His Father in His righteous character. {1SM 341.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: APL] #152883
06/05/13 05:59 AM
06/05/13 05:59 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline

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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,703
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
You say God executed Christ.


You haven't been paying attention. I'm not the one saying it. Here's another quote.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
At the ninth hour the darkness lifted from the people, but still enveloped the Saviour. It was a symbol of the agony and horror that weighed upon His heart. No eye could pierce the gloom that surrounded the cross, and none could penetrate the deeper gloom that enshrouded the suffering soul of Christ. The angry lightnings seemed to be hurled at Him as He hung upon the cross. Then "Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" As the outer gloom settled about the Saviour, many voices exclaimed: The vengeance of heaven is upon Him. The bolts of God's wrath are hurled at Him, because He claimed to be the Son of God. Many who believed on Him heard His despairing cry. Hope left them. If God had forsaken Jesus, in what could His followers trust? {DA 754.3} ...
He who stilled the angry waves and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee, who opened blind eyes and called forth the dead to life,--offers Himself upon the cross as a sacrifice, and this from love to thee. He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself. {DA 755.1}


What is "the wrath of divine justice," APL? What did Jesus endure? Was His a painless, comfortable experience? Where was His greatest agony? Was it not separation from His Father? Yet what came with it? Was it not Death? How, then, is this Death caused? Who put the "sins of the world" upon Jesus if He were perfect and did not deserve them?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Green Cochoa] #152886
06/05/13 06:34 AM
06/05/13 06:34 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2019

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,112
Western, USA
I have been paying attention. It is you that says God executed God, not EGW. "God destroys no man". Christ was also a man.

WHAT IS THE WRATH OF GOD? Read Romans 1.

When Christ was about to die, what did He say?

My God, my God, why are you torturing me?
My God, my God, why are you burning me?
My God, my God, why are you killing me?

NO. He said:
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Jesus endured "the hiding of his Father's face". That is God's wrath.

EGW also says, and which you seems to be ignoring, that "sin caused the death of the Son of God." {GW92 466.2} for sin caused the death of the Son of God. {RH, July 22, 1884 par. 9} While it is a disgrace to sin, it is no disgrace to confess sin, and to forsake it, as the hateful thing it is,--that which caused the death of the only begotten Son of God. {RH, December 9, 1890 par. 4} It was sin that caused the death of God's dear Son, {RH, November 22, 1892 par. 9}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: APL] #152888
06/05/13 07:53 AM
06/05/13 07:53 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline

Group: Admin Team
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,703
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
I have been paying attention. It is you that says God executed God, not EGW. "God destroys no man". Christ was also a man.

WHAT IS THE WRATH OF GOD? Read Romans 1.

When Christ was about to die, what did He say?

My God, my God, why are you torturing me?
My God, my God, why are you burning me?
My God, my God, why are you killing me?

NO. He said:
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Jesus endured "the hiding of his Father's face". That is God's wrath.

EGW also says, and which you seems to be ignoring, that "sin caused the death of the Son of God." {GW92 466.2} for sin caused the death of the Son of God. {RH, July 22, 1884 par. 9} While it is a disgrace to sin, it is no disgrace to confess sin, and to forsake it, as the hateful thing it is,--that which caused the death of the only begotten Son of God. {RH, December 9, 1890 par. 4} It was sin that caused the death of God's dear Son, {RH, November 22, 1892 par. 9}



Why was Abraham asked to kill his son Isaac?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Norman] #152889
06/05/13 08:09 AM
06/05/13 08:09 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline

Group: Admin Team
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,703
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Norman
Hi APL,
I really didn't read any of the other posts. I just posted what I know to be true about God. The idea that God executed Christ in order to pay for the penalty of sin sounds a little pagan to me.

Pagans would appease their gods and execute, kill or sacrifice people. God was in Christ so there would be no executing. Also, Jesus was the sin bearing sacrifice who willingly gave His life. In dying as our sacrifice He made a way for us to escape the death we were all destined to.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

It does say in Isaiah that it pleased God to bruise Him but there a big difference between bruise and execute. What God did was to allow sin to kill His Son, He died of a broken heart. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Norman


Norman,

I would submit that the word "bruise" here harks back to Genesis 3:15 where the prophecy is given. Jesus was only "bruised" or "crushed" temporarily because He has regained His life. When Satan is punished, it will mean his eternal death--which is why he is to have his head crushed instead of merely his heel. And the prophecy indicates who will crush the serpent.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
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