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Re: does God punish? [Re: APL] #153983
07/07/13 06:56 AM
07/07/13 06:56 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline

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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I've explained this already more than once on this forum. I think I explained it in the same post from which you extracted that sentence. Did you not understand the explanation? Which part do you not understand?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
You stated it happened, but you did not explain HOW it happens. What is the physiology at play? PLEASE, Explain!

I think I have stated it before, but perhaps inspiration will state it better.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The words spoken to the wife of Manoah contain a truth that the mothers of today would do well to study. In speaking to this one mother, the Lord spoke to all the anxious, sorrowing mothers of that time and to all the mothers of succeeding generations. Yes, every mother may understand her duty. She may know that the character of her children will depend vastly more upon her habits before their birth and her personal efforts after their birth than upon external advantages or disadvantages.--ST, Feb 26, 1902. (CD 218.) {1MCP 135.2}


In other words, external influences pale in comparison to the prenatal influence involved in forming the character of the child. Children are not born perfect. Their characters are already formed at birth. This has everything to do with the mother's habits.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson

Error is never harmless. It never sanctifies, but always brings confusion and dissension. -- Ellen White

The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. ...Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." -- Ellen White
Re: does God punish? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153984
07/07/13 07:12 AM
07/07/13 07:12 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Again, both deaths are because of our individual sins. But the full wages are not paid until the second death. That is my understanding until I am shown otherwise.

"The wages of sin is death," applies to both deaths, right? Both are caused by sin. But the full penalty, or "wages," is not applied until the second death. The first death is but a small portion of those wages. I believe, in other words, that this text regarding the wages of sin has at least a dual application. One cannot correctly apply it to just one of the two deaths as having fulfilled its full application.

BOTH deaths we die for only our own sins. BOTH deaths are "wages" for our sin. But the first death is but a shadow of the wage to be applied at the second, in most cases. Sodom and Gomorrah may be our best example of what is to come at the time of the second death.

In a sense, APL, BOTH deaths for any of the sons of man have been precipitated by Adam's transgression. If Adam and Eve had never transgressed, who would be burned in hell? Yet each will die for his own sin. The Bible is clear on this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The wicked will die the second death for their own sins. The second death "is the wages of sin". And the second death is all that matters. All, with a few noted exceptions die the first death because of Adam's transgression. Did you read EGW quote? And all of Romans 5? How about another view, I'll just pick one, there are many:
Quote:
Do mankind now die because of their own sins, or because of the sin of their representative head, Adam? There are, I think, weighty reasons to be offered on both branches of this question; that is, that they do not die on account of their own sins, and that they do die on account of Adam's transgression. And this conclusion is deducible from the principles of just reasoning, from the statements of the Scriptures, and from the admissions of those opposing. {1870 JHW, VDRU 10.1}


This quote is just a sample. We die the first death because we are mortal. We are mortal because of Adam's sin. Adam could not pass on immortality because he no longer possessed it.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: does God punish? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153985
07/07/13 07:17 AM
07/07/13 07:17 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I've explained this already more than once on this forum. I think I explained it in the same post from which you extracted that sentence. Did you not understand the explanation? Which part do you not understand?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
You stated it happened, but you did not explain HOW it happens. What is the physiology at play? PLEASE, Explain!

I think I have stated it before, but perhaps inspiration will state it better.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The words spoken to the wife of Manoah contain a truth that the mothers of today would do well to study. In speaking to this one mother, the Lord spoke to all the anxious, sorrowing mothers of that time and to all the mothers of succeeding generations. Yes, every mother may understand her duty. She may know that the character of her children will depend vastly more upon her habits before their birth and her personal efforts after their birth than upon external advantages or disadvantages.--ST, Feb 26, 1902. (CD 218.) {1MCP 135.2}


In other words, external influences pale in comparison to the prenatal influence involved in forming the character of the child. Children are not born perfect. Their characters are already formed at birth. This has everything to do with the mother's habits.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Again, you have not explain HOW this happens. Perhaps, you just do not know, and that's fine. I guess you just don't know the current science. A lot of these character traits are passed on via epigenetic switching. EGW was far ahead of her time, but science is confirming her statements. The character is not something that is immaterial. It is affected by real physiological processes. If you do not know what epigenetics is, check out this LINK


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: does God punish? [Re: APL] #153986
07/07/13 07:19 AM
07/07/13 07:19 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: green
Sodom and Gomorrah may be our best example of what is to come at the time of the second death.
REALLY??? NO!!! You want to see the best example of the second death, look the the ONLY example we have and it is not S&G. It is Christ! LOOK AT THE CROSS. Christ is the ONLY example of the second death we have. And CHRIST IS THE ANSWER to what happens with the second death...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: does God punish? [Re: APL] #153987
07/07/13 11:48 AM
07/07/13 11:48 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline

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APL,

To be honest, I am no longer interested in parleying with you, nor of hearing your view. I have spent too much precious time on these subjects already. You ignore many facts from the Bible, perhaps because they are crowded out by your favorite opinions. I really do not know. But it is clear that our discussion is fruitless and so much time spent that we will never be able to recover and to use to the glory of God in more beneficial ways.

I will give you an example of my above assessment, just so you know I'm making a legitimate observation. You said we have Christ as "the ONLY example we have and it is not S&G." I agree that Christ is one example, but the BIBLE, not Green Cochoa, says that Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth as examples. Let me quote from a passage or two you probably know well, but forgot in your excitement to post against my view.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; (2 Peter 2:6)

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)


The Bible expressly tells us that they were "set forth for an example." An example of what? It tells us that too..."suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Jesus did not die in a fire. The wicked at the end of time will not die on crosses. This is why I still stand by my statement.

And you want to know something else? Where did Jesus die?

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Revelation 11:8)


Interesting, isn't it? Again, Sodom is a good example. Jesus was crucified there. smile

Of course, you are free to hold your views. And I am free to leave off discussing them.

This would be a message I would like to urge here.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God's patience will not always wait for you, poor, trifling souls. He who holds our destinies in His hands will not always be trifled with. Jesus declares to us that there is a greater sin than that which caused the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is the sin of those who have the great light of truth in these days and who are not moved to repentance. It is the sin of rejecting the light of the most solemn message of mercy to the world. It is the sin of those who see Jesus in the wilderness of temptation, bowed down as with mortal agony because of the sins of the world, and yet are not moved to thorough repentance. He fasted nearly six weeks to overcome, in behalf of men, the indulgence of appetite and vanity, and the desire for display and worldly honor. He has shown them how they may overcome on their own account as He overcame; but it is not pleasant to their natures to endure conflict and reproach, derision and shame, for His dear sake. It is not agreeable to deny self and to be ever seeking to do good to others. It is not pleasant to overcome as Christ overcame, so they turn from the pattern which is plainly given them to copy and refuse to imitate the example that the Saviour came from the heavenly courts to leave them. {3T 380.1}

It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for those who have had the privileges and the great light which shines in our day, but who have neglected to follow the light and to give their hearts fully to God. {3T 380.2}

"God is not slack, concerning his promise, as some men count slackness...."

We are repeatedly told that God will punish. Who are we to argue with HIM?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson

Error is never harmless. It never sanctifies, but always brings confusion and dissension. -- Ellen White

The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. ...Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." -- Ellen White
Re: does God punish? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153991
07/07/13 02:03 PM
07/07/13 02:03 PM
APL  Offline
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Green - it is your choice if you want to reply or not, you are not forced. I believe that God is EXACTLY like Jesus. You said the BEST example of the second death is Sodom and Gomorrah. To this I take great issue. It is not the BEST, Jesus is the BEST. Which is the BEST? Jesus or Sodom and Gomorrah? Green votes Sodom and Gomorrah, and I without question, vote Jesus.

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Therefore, I read the Old Testament from the perspective of Jesus. I like the 3T380 quote posted, but notice who is being spoken to, our day. Sodom and Gomorrah will be MORE tolerable, so while it is an example, it is not the final answer, nor the BEST answer. I believe Jude 1:7 is right! I read it however in light of Hosea 11:8! And in the light of MANY other verses, such as Deueromony 32 which I don't recall you acknowledging. Also the death of Saul which has been mentioned here before. And many others. Christ is the only being to have experienced the second death, His death is the one we need to look at for the final and BEST answer. And taking His life and death and then understanding the rest of scripture. We then understand that sinners will be punished, and we will understand how God is involved. So read about Sodom and Gomorrah from the light given us from Jesus.

As for the first death which you say is only for personal sins, I don't agree, and the Adventist Pioneers do not agree. Here is another example of that disagreement by Uriah Smith.
Originally Posted By: US
But the death, whenever it came, would have been only the death in Adam, which must first be inflicted, because it had passed on all men; and in this death one's own personal righteousness or guilt is in nowise involved. {1897 UrS, HHMLD 250.3}

Therefore the personal account on the antediluvians, and of all others who have gone down under special judgments [Sodom and Gomorrah], still remains unsettled; and they must have a resurrection to answer therefor, and then receive the penalty for the same, which will be the second death.
And other place he is clear the first death is not for our own sins. That is what the second death is all about.

As to the second death, I'll give an example again from the pioneers understanding which is as I have stated here before, God will tell US, "thy will be done".
Originally Posted By: EJW
But there comes a time at last when it is useless to wait longer. Christ comes the second time to earth, not as before in humiliation, but in power and great glory. "Every eye shall see Him," and nobody will need any proof that He is Lord of all. Every knee will bow to Him, and every tongue will confess that God is, and that Jesus Christ is Lord. Romans 14:2; Philippians 2:10-11. But even then the wicked will continue to do wickedly. Still they will say, "We will not have this man to reign over us." They acknowledge that God is just; but they hate justice. They still desire to have nothing to do with Him, and insist that they are competent to manage their own affairs. So presumptuous are they,-so blinded by the Deceiver,-that they will undertake even to cast God down from His throne, and to seize upon His place. Psalms 2:1-6; Revelation 20:7-9. Then at Iast God will take them at their own word, and will allow them to try their idea of existing wholly separate from Him. There can be but one result, namely, extinction; for in the first place it is impossible for any creature to live a moment without God's sustaining power, and in the second place, there is no place where men can go away from God. God fills all space, so that the wicked must go into nothingness, where there is no place, in order to set up their independent kingdom. Literally, their place shall not be. {August 6, 1903 EJW, PTUK 500.5}

Now it must be apparent to all that there is no injustice in this, and that it is also perfectly consistent with everlasting love; because it is only giving to men what they have worked for, and what they have persisted in having. It certainly would be no kindness to rebellious haters of God, to compel them to live with Him. If there were a place in the universe where God is not, the wicked, who hate His presence, might be sent there to live if they could; but there is no such place, and they can have their hearts' desire only by going out of existence. God's mercy endures for ever, even in the complete destruction of the wicked. {August 6, 1903 EJW, PTUK 500.6}

Thus it appears that the extinction of the incorrigibly wicked is a necessary part of the atonement. For the atonement contemplates the extermination, the blotting out of sin; and when sin is completely blotted from God's universe, those who have so fully identified themselves with sin that they are nothing but sin, must be blotted out with it. {August 6, 1903 EJW, PTUK 500.7}

Nor does this fact that there will be incorrigibly wicked men at the last, indicate the least defect in the atonement; it does not show any weakness on God's part. On the contrary, it shows how firmly God has maintained His original purpose of having an earth filled with righteousness, and ruled over by absolutely free men. Man has his choice, either to reign with God in life, or to ally himself with Satan in death; and in the Judgment every lost sinner will acknowledge that God is clear of his blood, since He has made ample provision for the salvation of all. The wicked will fall by their own counsel; they will be self-condemned and self-destroyed. The strong shall be as tow, and his work a spark, and they shall burn together (Isaiah 1:31); "for the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them." Proverbs 1:32. And then when sin and sinners shall have been blotted from God's creation, from every part of it only one song will be heard, of blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, unto Him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the lamb for ever and ever. {August 6, 1903 EJW, PTUK 500.8}
What is this passage tell us? Is the death of the wicked execution by God? NO

Originally Posted By: green
We are repeatedly told that God will punish. Who are we to argue with HIM?
God told us through Isaiah the following, Isaiah 1:18 AKJV Come now, and let us reason together, said the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18 NRSV Come now, let us argue it out, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be like snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. God is inviting us to "argue" with Him, to reason with Him, to understand Him. Job 13:3 KJV Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God. Job 13:3 NRSV But I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to argue my case with God. We are repeatedly told that God did this or that, only to find out who God was really involved. God punished the children of Israel by sending fiery serpents, how was God involved? God punished the quail eaters, how was God involved?

Originally Posted By: EGW
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth. {COL 415.3}

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isaiah 40:9-10. {COL 415.4}

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them. {COL 415.5}

Green, you see this discussion as a waste of YOUR time. That's fine. I see this discussion as of how many in our church we have lost sight of the true character of God. Respond if you wish, but do so voluntarily. Do note, that if you respond, and I take issue with what you say, I will respond back. To stop this "discussion", just stop replying. It is that simple.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: does God punish? [Re: Green Cochoa] #154011
07/08/13 04:44 PM
07/08/13 04:44 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
No, the question is, why should the answer to who slew Saul any more complicated than any other thing which is attributed to God doing.

The Bible clearly says God slew Saul. But yet, it isn't as you think. So why should other places where "The Bible clearly says", should you not immediately think it may not be as you think.

I believe that God did kill Saul. But He did it through a different means this time than He did in the case of Nadab and Abihu.
Let's assume you are correct.

So, when the archers hit Saul and wounded him, it was not by their choice, but God caused them to do it.

When Saul told his armourbearer to thrust him through but refused, was God wavering in His attempt to kill Saul, or did it go wrong?

When Saul committed suicide, it was not by his choice, but God forced him to.

When his armourbearer also killed himself, was this God killing him because God had failed to manipulate him or was this a case of the armourbearer's free will when he saw that God forced Saul to commit suicide even though he refused to do what God wanted?

But then, there is some free will but not? Why did Saul not have free will but his armourbear did have free will?

Could you explain this?
Or should we reevaluate the assumption that you are correct?

Re: does God punish? [Re: kland] #154019
07/08/13 10:04 PM
07/08/13 10:04 PM
APL  Offline
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And how does a baby sin in utero? Do they "choose" to sin? But I think Green has checked out on his explanation, which is his perogative...
Originally Posted By: EGW by green
She may know that the character of her children will depend vastly more upon her habits before their birth and her personal efforts after their birth than upon external advantages or disadvantages.--ST, Feb 26, 1902. (CD 218.) {1MCP 135.2}
To which he commented:
Originally Posted By: green
Their characters are already formed at birth. This has everything to do with the mother's habits.
But this is a mis-quote. It is also the mother's personal efforts AFTER birth. What is true, is that a noble character is not inherited.
Originally Posted By: EGW
But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. {COL 331.1}
What about Christ?
Originally Posted By: EGW
The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. {DA 762.2}
Even Christ "developed" a perfect character. And God is going to punish a newborn because they sinned in utero? That is why they die? The first death is all about what Adam did. The second death is how we responded to Christ's offer of atonement... Or so it seems to me.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: does God punish? [Re: Green Cochoa] #154032
07/09/13 08:40 PM
07/09/13 08:40 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
Jesus did not die in a fire.

Ellen White may be referring to this when she said:

[He was] the only One who could bear the strokes in behalf of the sinner and because of His innocence not be consumed. {HP 42.4}

Re: does God punish? [Re: APL] #154033
07/09/13 09:16 PM
07/09/13 09:16 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,153
Brazil
Quote:
Even Christ "developed" a perfect character. And God is going to punish a newborn because they sinned in utero? That is why they die? The first death is all about what Adam did. The second death is how we responded to Christ's offer of atonement... Or so it seems to me.

Adam also, although created with a perfect character, had to develop a perfect character. This was his test. And this was also the test of the second Adam.

The human race do not stand in the righteousness of character which Adam possessed at his creation. {ST, June 11, 1894 par. 11}

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this ... {SC 62.2}

As to us, we are born with defects of character.

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The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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