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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #154838
08/10/13 04:10 PM
08/10/13 04:10 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
asygo says YES. What does APL say? It takes no more than 3 letters to answer.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #154841
08/10/13 06:59 PM
08/10/13 06:59 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
back
Does God punish? Yes.
For what purpose does He punish?

That sounds like another discussion for those who believe that God punishes. Do you believe that God punishes?

The Lord doesn't punish. He chastises[ yasar, "to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence, to instruct.].

Example : Lev 26:23 "And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish [3256 yasar, chastise, instruct] you seven times more for your sins."

Jer 31:18 "I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself [thus]; Thou hast chastised[3256, yasar] me, and I was chastised[3256, yasar] , as a bullock unaccustomed [to the yoke]: turn thou me, and I shall be turned ; for thou [art] the LORD my God.

The english translated verb "punish" does does not reflect the mind of the Lord in the Bible. Punishment is based on a Babylonian mind set of judicial system which is far from the mind of the Lord.

All of the Lord's judgments are correctional aimed to restore and teach those who works lawlessness [anomia].

Yes the Lord does correct and it can be quite harshly too(see how severely which is well described in Lev 26 & Deut 28). A loving father discipline those He loves. And He mainly discipline(chastise) His Sons and Daughters when they do not follow His laws. Correcting nations or unbelievers is not as much a priority for Him despite they are also judge however less severely than His sons for His Sons were given the Law and should know better.

Plus His Sons are chosen to teach these laws to the nations. So they are to a very large degree responsible for the sins of the nation for they failed to teach the nation the Lord's laws.


Blessings
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Elle] #154854
08/11/13 04:05 PM
08/11/13 04:05 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
"Punish" also means those things you mentioned. That's why it is often translated that way.

But at when sin is finally ended, is there not judgement? Who does the judging? Will sinners such as Satan be punished or chastised then?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #154869
08/11/13 08:59 PM
08/11/13 08:59 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
"Punish" also means those things you mentioned. That's why it is often translated that way.

But at when sin is finally ended, is there not judgement? Who does the judging? Will sinners such as Satan be punished or chastised then?

Let's leave Satan aside and only refer to human sinners shall we. Judgment comes before sin finally ends and it is judgment that produces righteousness.

Is 26:9 "With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. "

This global judgment day has not come yet and it will begin at Jesus 2nd coming and will end at the great white throne. According to the Bible here and other text it shows that when judgment comes the Inhabitants will learn rightesousness.

The common view(SDAs and all Christiandom) of "punishment" is not the view of the Lord and not what it is describes in the Law. It is different in meaning than "chastising/Instuct" of correction. The judicial system and how the Lord will judge is describe in the law. But we don't study the law for we think it is irrelevant to us and thus we are ignorant of how the Lord will judge. The Lord will fulfill all the Law including how He will judge as it is described there.

The Lord will execute fair justice as it says "an eye for an eye" meaning if an eye is lost, then the right restitution is to return an eye back(or the value), nothing less nothing more. Sin is equated to a debt and the Lord knows the value of all sins. Christiandom has given the death penalty for all sins regardless how small or great and it is with the PUNISHMENT mentality with no mind of restoring the sinner that they see the coming judgments. In the Law, when the sinner are judge and if they cannot pay, then they need to work to restore the value of the damages and pay it back. This is justice -- Righteous Justice for the victim damages is paid and the offender is restore.


Blessings
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Elle] #154878
08/11/13 11:10 PM
08/11/13 11:10 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Keeping to the thread, will there be punishment at the end?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #154880
08/12/13 12:38 AM
08/12/13 12:38 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Keeping to the thread, will there be punishment at the end?

End of what? Great White Throne Judgment or the Great Jubilee(49,000 yrs after Adam)?

At the Judgment of the great white throne it says very clearly in Is 26:9 that the Judgment will produce righteousness in the inhabitants.

At the end of the Great Jubilee, it is law that all slaves are set free whether their debt is fully paid or not. This is LAW and prophecy showing what the mind of the Lord has planned from the beginning. The Lord will fulfill His Jubilee and free all humans.

So NO there's no punishment which that word has the Babylonian Judicial system written all over it. This is far from the Lords ways.


Blessings
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Elle] #154888
08/12/13 03:40 AM
08/12/13 03:40 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
I'm talking about the end of sin, when God restores everything. Will anyone be punished? Or will everyone be treated the same?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #154891
08/12/13 04:21 AM
08/12/13 04:21 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
I'm talking about the end of sin, when God restores everything. Will anyone be punished? Or will everyone be treated the same?
And I asked the question before, what is the point? To scare the unfallen from thinking about sinning? To teach the sinners a lesson? Of course they will then be dead and it will make no difference.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #154893
08/12/13 04:25 AM
08/12/13 04:25 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Apparently, "justice" is a foreign concept to some.

I would say the point has to do with universal recognition of God's justice and righteousness. It is a healing process. Once and for all, sin's wound must be cleansed. The medicine hurts before the healing comes, and the pain will be gone forever.

APL, do you think it would be more fair to leave everyone in their graves where they were, and never to raise them to answer the questions that they may have had in this life? Do you think they don't deserve to know why they would be forever dead? Would that be "fair" to them?

You see, death is not the only thing involved in this event.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #154903
08/12/13 05:58 AM
08/12/13 05:58 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
What is the Biblical idea of Justice?

Psalms 82:3-4 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Isaiah 1:23 Your princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loves gifts, and follows after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither does the cause of the widow come to them.

Jeremiah 5:28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yes, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Justice is doing the right thing. It is not the forensic act of punishing/executing sinners in the end.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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