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Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Green Cochoa] #156160
09/15/13 11:43 AM
09/15/13 11:43 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Johann
Our homiletics professor, Dr. Beaven, warned us not to make references to Hebrew or Greek in our sermons. He claimed that would merely distract the audience.

That sounds like a Catholic-trained professor. The Catholics like to keep people from understanding the Bible, and they look at only the priests as having sufficient knowledge to interpret it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


You make this claim just after you have stated that the average people in the audience have no knowledge of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc. . . Are we dealing with two different personalties using the secret code Green something?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Johann] #156161
09/15/13 11:52 AM
09/15/13 11:52 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
You make this claim just after you have stated that the average people in the audience have no knowledge of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc. . . Are we dealing with two different personalties using the secret code Green something?

Perhaps two different perspectives, Johann, yours and mine.

I recognize the fact that many do not know the original languages of the Bible. This fact does not also cause me to view those people as too ignorant to learn about them. I believe we have many people in the church who are intelligent and well able to grasp the meanings of the words underlying their translations.

EDIT: And, by the way, I was not talking in my original statement about "people in the audience." I was talking about translators. However, I will accept that the average person in the pew would be in a similar situation.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 09/15/13 11:54 AM.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Johann] #156162
09/15/13 11:55 AM
09/15/13 11:55 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Johann
Then we had Dr. Siegfried Horn whose Adventist parents in Nazin Germany sent him to a Jewish school because then he was not forced to attend on Sabbath. So he learned to read the Hebrew like his own language, and later also Greek. While incarcerated by the Nazis he translated the whole New Testament.

From the Hebrew Bible he concluded that originally the ten commandments were just ten Hebrew words where comments were later added. This is one reason why the wording in the two renderings is not the same.

Horn edited the SDA Bible Dictionary in the Commentary series. His knowledge through Hebrew and archeology did not always coincide with tradition.

I'm not sure that the Bible can agree with Dr. Siegfried's conclusions about the Ten Commandments. If each commandment were one word, we would have something like the following (and I still can't do it with just one word in English):

1) no gods
2) no idols
3) no hypocrisy
4) remember sabbath
5) honor parents
6) no murder
7) no adultery
8) no stealing
9) no lying
10) no coveting

But that this cannot be the case is established by the New Testament and by Mrs. White's writings.

For example, "Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise." (Ephesians 6:2, KJV)

If it were just the "honor" part, where is the promise? The promise was this part: "that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee."

I believe it would be impossible to wrap that promise, along with the command to honor one's parents, all into one Hebrew word--unless Hebrew is like these Asian languages where no whitespace is used to separate between words, and it is only used to delimit entire phrases or sentences, and one is choosing to define as one word that entire sentence. This would be the only way I could see of supporting such a claim as the "Ten Words." Of course, using that same yardstick, many verses of the Bible, if not most, would have been just "one word" in the original language as well.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Dr. Siegfried Horn was not referring to any English text, but to the Hebrew where one word can include so much more than an English word. And he was referring to an expression in Scripture which in Hebrew referred to each commandment as a single word, even though it is not translated that way into English.


Dr. Horn was not referring to the wording found in Genesis, but to what was engraved in stone as described elsewhere by Moses.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Johann] #156163
09/15/13 12:06 PM
09/15/13 12:06 PM
Johann  Offline
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With all of your aversion against so much in Adventism of the past and present, I wonder who else than yourself has - according to you - the right to call himself a Seventh-day Adventist?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Johann] #156164
09/15/13 12:31 PM
09/15/13 12:31 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Dr. Horn was not referring to the wording found in Genesis, but to what was engraved in stone as described elsewhere by Moses.


I wouldn't expect that he would refer to such wording in Genesis. As for the stone, it was kept out of sight in the ark, but God's voice had proclaimed the commandments to the entire congregation from Sinai.

Mrs. White saw the commandments.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Jesus raised the cover of the ark, and I beheld the tables of stone on which the ten commandments were written. I was amazed as I saw the fourth commandment in the very center of the ten precepts, with a soft halo of light encircling it. Said the angel, "It is the only one of the ten which defines the living God who created the heavens and the earth and all things that are therein." {CET 85.5}


I still don't see how all of that could have been "one word." If "God" is a Hebrew word, and "Sabbath" is another, there would have to have been at least two words, if not plenty more for such things as "heaven" and "earth," and "work," and "stranger in thy gates."

Perhaps, instead of "words," we should be speaking in terms of "syllables" or "characters." As I said earlier, the commandments must have contained full sentences.

Mrs. White appears to agree with this concept.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
John saw that these proud Jews were exalting and glorifying themselves by parading their ostentatious piety before the public. They bound portions of the law upon their foreheads and about their wrists, that all might recognize and pay deference to their assumed sanctity. True, God had commanded the children of Israel to place a ribbon of blue in the border of their garments, upon which the ten commandments, in brief, should be embroidered. This was to continually remind them of their duty to love God supremely, and their neighbor as themselves. But the farther they had departed from their primitive purity and simplicity, and the more directly their daily lives were opposed to the law of God, the more particular were they to make broad their phylacteries, and add to the words which God had specified should be traced on the ribbon of blue. Outwardly they were expressing the deepest devotion, while their acts were in strong contrast with their profession. {2SP 74.1}

John saw that the Jews who made high pretensions to piety, were exalting and glorifying themselves. Portions of the law were printed and bound upon their foreheads, and about their wrists. God had commanded the children of Israel to have a ribbon of blue in the border of their garments, upon which was embroidered words of the law, which expressed in short the ten commandments, to remind them of their duty to love God supremely, and to love their neighbor as themselves. The farther they departed from their primitive purity, and simplicity in their words and example, and the more their works were directly contrary to the law of God, the more particular were they to make broad their phylacteries, and add to the words that God had specified that they should have in the ribbon of blue. In their outward appearance, they were expressing exalted devotion and sanctity, while their works were in the widest contrast. {RH, March 4, 1873 par. 17}


If the Ten Commandments were but ten words, there would have been no need to summarize them "in brief" or "in short" as she says they were to do.

In fact, the tradition of the "Ten Words" may be directly related to this command of God that they put the law "in brief" on the borders of their garments.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Green Cochoa] #156166
09/15/13 12:36 PM
09/15/13 12:36 PM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
At least you have found a solution.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Johann] #156168
09/15/13 02:01 PM
09/15/13 02:01 PM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Hm - is Green an expert in the field of Hebrew? Horn was. Which to believe, which to believe? Boy that is a tough one. How about another testimony. John Andrews maybe?
Originally Posted By: JNA emphasis in the original
That the words engraven upon stone were simply the ten commandments is evident. {HSFD 79.1}

1. It is said of the first tables:- {HSFD 79.2}

"And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone." [Deuteronomy 4:12, 13] {HSFD 79.3}

2. Thus the first tables of stone contained the ten commandments alone. That the second tables were an exact copy of what was written upon the first, is plainly stated:- {HSFD 79.4}

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou breakest." "And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou breakest and thou shalt put them in the ark." [Exodus 34:1; Deuteronomy 10:2] {HSFD 79.5}

3. This is confirmed by the following decisive testimony:- {HSFD 80.1}

"And he wrote upon the table the words of the covenant, the ten commandments," margin, Heb., "words." "And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments [margin, words], which the Lord spake unto you in the mount, out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the Lord gave them unto me." [Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 10:4] {HSFD 80.2}

These texts will explain the following language: "And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly." [Deuteronomy 9:10] Thus God is said to have written upon the tables according to all the words which he spoke in the day of the assemble; and these words which he thus wrote, are said to have been TEN WORDS. But the preface to the decalogue was not one of these ten words, and hence was not written by the finger of God upon stone. That this distinction must be attended to, will be seen by examining the following text and its connection:- {HSFD 80.3}

"THESE WORDS the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount, out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me." [Deuteronomy 5:22] {HSFD 80.4}

THESE WORDS here brought to view as written by the finger of God after having been uttered by him in the hearing of all the people, must be understood as one of two things. 1. They are simply the ten words of the law of God; or, 2. They are the words used by Moses in this rehearsal of the decalogue. But they cannot refer to the words used in this rehearsal; for, 1. Moses omits an important part of the fourth precept as given by God in its proclamation from the mount. 2. In this rehearsal of that precept he cites back to the original for that which is omitted. [Deuteronomy 5:12-15, compared with Exodus 20:8-11] 3. He appends to this precept an appeal in its behalf to their gratitude which was not made by God in giving it. 4. This language only purports to be a rehearsal and not the original itself; and this is further evinced by many verbal deviations from the original decalogue. [Deuteronomy 5, compared with Exodus 20] These facts are decisive as to what was placed upon the tables of stone. It was not an incomplete copy, citing elsewhere for the original, but the original code itself. And hence when Moses speaks of THESE WORDS as engraven upon the tables, he refers not to the words used by himself in this rehearsal, but to the TEN WORDS of the law of God, and excludes all else. {HSFD 80.5}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: APL] #156172
09/15/13 03:54 PM
09/15/13 03:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Since practicing unknown sin means we are moving away from Jesus it stands to reason people cannot fulfill the biblical description of converted Christians while ignorantly sinning. The Bible, as you know, does not describe people abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature also unknowingly practicing unknown sins. They are either all of His and free of sin or none of His and full of sin. The Bible does not describe believers as people who are simultaneously sinning and not sinning. They do not, cannot sin while they are abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Yes, of course, they are free to sin. They are not incapable of sinning. But according to the biblical description of believers they do not, cannot sin while abiding in Jesus.

Here's how the Bible describes newborn babes in Christ:

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

James
3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.

Nowhere in the Bible does it describe believers serving Jesus in sin and without sin. They are dead to sin and awake to righteousness. How cool is that!

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156173
09/15/13 04:17 PM
09/15/13 04:17 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Obviously there have been generations of born again Christians who have been ignorantly breaking the 4th Commandment by treating the 7th day (Sabbath) as an ordinary work/pleasure day, and treating the 1st day (Sunday) as the Lord's Day with many referring to that day as the Sabbath.

Does this mean that they will all be lost for ignorantly living their whole lives to the grave observing Sunday as the Sabbath and treating the 7th day as a regular day like the other days of the week and thus have also in ignorance broken the 4th Commandment?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Daryl] #156175
09/15/13 04:38 PM
09/15/13 04:38 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Obviously there have been generations of born again Christians who have been ignorantly breaking the 4th Commandment by treating the 7th day (Sabbath) as an ordinary work/pleasure day, and treating the 1st day (Sunday) as the Lord's Day with many referring to that day as the Sabbath.

Does this mean that they will all be lost for ignorantly living their whole lives to the grave observing Sunday as the Sabbath and treating the 7th day as a regular day like the other days of the week and thus have also in ignorance broken the 4th Commandment?


Acts 17:30

New International Version (NIV)

30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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