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Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Johann] #156176
09/15/13 04:50 PM
09/15/13 04:50 PM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Also consider this:

Quote:
Psalm 87 His foundation is in the holy mountains.

2 The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.

4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.

6 The Lord shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

Last edited by Johann; 09/15/13 04:51 PM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Daryl] #156177
09/15/13 05:36 PM
09/15/13 05:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Obviously there have been generations of born again Christians who have been ignorantly breaking the 4th Commandment by treating the 7th day (Sabbath) as an ordinary work/pleasure day, and treating the 1st day (Sunday) as the Lord's Day with many referring to that day as the Sabbath.

Very true. But the Bible does not describe converted Christians ignorantly breaking the Sabbath. However, the Bible does describes unbelievers unknowingly living in harmony with the law.

Romans
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Obviously this passage does not imply they are unknowingly keeping the seventh-day Sabbath holy unto the Lord.

Originally Posted By: Daryl
Does this mean that they will all be lost for ignorantly living their whole lives to the grave observing Sunday as the Sabbath and treating the 7th day as a regular day like the other days of the week and thus have also in ignorance broken the 4th Commandment?

People will be saved by the blood of Jesus - not because of their works. Again, the Bible does not describe believers ignorantly breaking the law of God. It describes them living in full and complete harmony with the will and law of God. Nowhere in the Bible does it describes believers living in ignorance of sin.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156178
09/15/13 05:55 PM
09/15/13 05:55 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
I believe that the words "unknown sin" qualifies to those who are ignorantly breaking the Sabbath by ignorantly observing Sunday as the Sabbath, or, as they call it, the Lord's Day.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: APL] #156180
09/15/13 06:22 PM
09/15/13 06:22 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: APL
Hm - is Green an expert in the field of Hebrew? Horn was. Which to believe, which to believe? Boy that is a tough one. How about another testimony. John Andrews maybe?
Originally Posted By: JNA emphasis in the original
That the words engraven upon stone were simply the ten commandments is evident. {HSFD 79.1}

1. It is said of the first tables:- {HSFD 79.2}

"And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone." [Deuteronomy 4:12, 13] {HSFD 79.3}

2. Thus the first tables of stone contained the ten commandments alone. That the second tables were an exact copy of what was written upon the first, is plainly stated:- {HSFD 79.4}

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou breakest." "And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou breakest and thou shalt put them in the ark." [Exodus 34:1; Deuteronomy 10:2] {HSFD 79.5}

3. This is confirmed by the following decisive testimony:- {HSFD 80.1}

"And he wrote upon the table the words of the covenant, the ten commandments," margin, Heb., "words." "And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments [margin, words], which the Lord spake unto you in the mount, out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the Lord gave them unto me." [Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 10:4] {HSFD 80.2}

These texts will explain the following language: "And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly." [Deuteronomy 9:10] Thus God is said to have written upon the tables according to all the words which he spoke in the day of the assemble; and these words which he thus wrote, are said to have been TEN WORDS. But the preface to the decalogue was not one of these ten words, and hence was not written by the finger of God upon stone. That this distinction must be attended to, will be seen by examining the following text and its connection:- {HSFD 80.3}

"THESE WORDS the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount, out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me." [Deuteronomy 5:22] {HSFD 80.4}

THESE WORDS here brought to view as written by the finger of God after having been uttered by him in the hearing of all the people, must be understood as one of two things. 1. They are simply the ten words of the law of God; or, 2. They are the words used by Moses in this rehearsal of the decalogue. But they cannot refer to the words used in this rehearsal; for, 1. Moses omits an important part of the fourth precept as given by God in its proclamation from the mount. 2. In this rehearsal of that precept he cites back to the original for that which is omitted. [Deuteronomy 5:12-15, compared with Exodus 20:8-11] 3. He appends to this precept an appeal in its behalf to their gratitude which was not made by God in giving it. 4. This language only purports to be a rehearsal and not the original itself; and this is further evinced by many verbal deviations from the original decalogue. [Deuteronomy 5, compared with Exodus 20] These facts are decisive as to what was placed upon the tables of stone. It was not an incomplete copy, citing elsewhere for the original, but the original code itself. And hence when Moses speaks of THESE WORDS as engraven upon the tables, he refers not to the words used by himself in this rehearsal, but to the TEN WORDS of the law of God, and excludes all else. {HSFD 80.5}


No wonder Andrews University is regarded a "bad" school since J N Andrews interpreted Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy in a different way from Green. dunno


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156181
09/15/13 06:30 PM
09/15/13 06:30 PM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Does this mean that they will all be lost for ignorantly living their whole lives to the grave observing Sunday as the Sabbath and treating the 7th day as a regular day like the other days of the week and thus have also in ignorance broken the 4th Commandment?

People will be saved by the blood of Jesus - not because of their works. Again, the Bible does not describe believers ignorantly breaking the law of God. It describes them living in full and complete harmony with the will and law of God. Nowhere in the Bible does it describes believers living in ignorance of sin.

Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Daryl] #156187
09/15/13 10:48 PM
09/15/13 10:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl
I believe that the words "unknown sin" qualifies to those who are ignorantly breaking the Sabbath by ignorantly observing Sunday as the Sabbath, or, as they call it, the Lord's Day.

Where in the Bible does it describe born-again, baptized believers who ignorantly break the Sabbath?

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: asygo] #156188
09/15/13 10:52 PM
09/15/13 10:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?

Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156191
09/16/13 02:23 AM
09/16/13 02:23 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Didn't they as born again saved Christians in reality practice sin in their continuous breaking of the 4th Commandment?
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?

Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156192
09/16/13 03:36 AM
09/16/13 03:36 AM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?

Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.

Are you saying there will be unconverted people in heaven?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Daryl] #156228
09/16/13 03:51 PM
09/16/13 03:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl
A: Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?

M: Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.

D: Didn't they as born again saved Christians in reality practice sin in their continuous breaking of the 4th Commandment?

Yes. They were guilty of sinning ignorantly. Jesus paid the price for their sins.

Please answer the following question: Where in the Bible does it describe born-again, baptized believers sinning without realizing it?

Page 4 of 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 12 13

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