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Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: asygo] #156229
09/16/13 03:57 PM
09/16/13 03:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
A: Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?

M: Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.

A: Are you saying there will be unconverted people in heaven?

There will be plenty of people in heaven who did not complete the process of converting to obeying, observing "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. Jesus does not view them as "unconverted" because they were in the process of converting and were living in harmony with all the light they embraced. He knows they would have embraced all truth had not death intervened. However, the Bible does not describe born-again, baptized believers ignorantly living in violation of God's will and law. The biblical description depicts believers as pure, holy, and righteous as Jesus.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156230
09/16/13 04:03 PM
09/16/13 04:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Abiding in Jesus means everything. We are either all of His and free of sin or we are none of His and full of sin:

Christ is standing at the door, knocking, and inviting us to accept his presence. He says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock; if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." With Christ abiding in the soul, the human agent becomes a partaker of the divine nature, and is a coworker with Jesus Christ. He manifests ardor and earnestness, and possesses that perseverance, so that, like his Master, he will not fail nor be discouraged. Let all turn away from the heart cravings for selfish gratification; let all empty the soul of self-love, selfish desires and ambitions, and Christ will supply the vacuum; he will reign in the heart that is emptied of self, and from his divine presence will flow forth living streams to revive and refresh the souls of those who are ready to perish. "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness; for they shall be filled." {ST, September 5, 1895 par. 10}

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156235
09/16/13 07:05 PM
09/16/13 07:05 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
A: Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?

M: Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.

A: Are you saying there will be unconverted people in heaven?

M: There will be plenty of people in heaven who did not complete the process of converting to obeying, observing "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. Jesus does not view them as "unconverted" because they were in the process of converting and were living in harmony with all the light they embraced.

Are you saying that there is a 3rd condition, between converted and unconverted?

If so, I don't agree. I believe one must be fully converted before he is given the finishing touch of immortality.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
He knows they would have embraced all truth had not death intervened.

You speak as if God is powerless to stop death. This would make it rather sticky in the Investigative Judgment, don't you think?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
However, the Bible does not describe born-again, baptized believers ignorantly living in violation of God's will and law.

I think you described them well: There will be plenty of people in heaven who did not complete the process of converting to obeying, observing "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The biblical description depicts believers as pure, holy, and righteous as Jesus.

We may have a difference of opinion regarding the role of imputed righteousness when sinners are described as "pure, holy, and righteous as Jesus."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156237
09/16/13 07:14 PM
09/16/13 07:14 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Abiding in Jesus means everything. We are either all of His and free of sin or we are none of His and full of sin:

You also said: there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here.

Are these people, of whom there will be plenty in heaven, free of sin or full of sin?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: asygo] #156248
09/16/13 11:27 PM
09/16/13 11:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Arnold, it seems as though we view things differently.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156250
09/16/13 11:44 PM
09/16/13 11:44 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Posts: 5,583
California, USA
I tend to agree. To me, the "plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here" are converted and free of sin, even though they "did not complete the process of converting to obeying, observing 'all things whatsoever' Jesus commanded."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156255
09/17/13 02:45 AM
09/17/13 02:45 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Ellen White answers some of these questions regarding those who are saved ignorant of the Sabbath truth.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
It is plainly stated in the Scriptures that if the whole congregation sin through ignorance, the priests shall make an atonement for the sins when they are made apparent, and the sin of ignorance shall be forgiven. The work of Jesus is to forgive the sins of the past, but if light comes from heaven to the church, and men refuse the light because its acceptance involves a cross, then they stand guilty before God; for they have made it manifest that they love the world more than they love Christ and the truth. Those who have an opportunity to hear the truth, and yet take no pains to hear or understand it, thinking that if they do not hear, they will not be accountable, will be judged guilty before God the same as if they had heard and rejected. There will be no excuse for those who choose to go in error when they might understand what is truth. In his sufferings and death Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance, but there is no provision made for wilful blindness. Those who have hid their eyes from the truth lest they should be convinced, must exercise repentance toward God for the transgression of his law, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, that their sins of ignorance in the transgression of the Sabbath may be forgiven. {RH, April 25, 1893 par. 10}

Let none plead as an excuse for not keeping the Sabbath, that their fathers died accepted of God when keeping the first day of the week. No doubt they were accepted; for they did not sin against the light that is shining upon you in your day. God would have us walk in the light which shines upon us. We are to appreciate the truth that is presented to our understanding; for if we do not walk in the light, it becomes darkness, and our darkness will be proportionate to the light that is given. {RH, April 25, 1893 par. 11}

We shall not be held accountable for the light that has not reached our perception, but for that which we have resisted and refused. A man could not apprehend the truth which had never been presented to him, and therefore could not be condemned for light he had never had. But if he had opportunity to hear the message, and to become acquainted with the truth, and yet refused to improve his opportunity, he will be among the number of whom Christ said, "Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life." Those who deliberately place themselves where they will not have an opportunity of hearing the truth, will be reckoned among those who have heard the truth, and persistently resisted its evidences. {RH, April 25, 1893 par. 12}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Green Cochoa] #156281
09/17/13 02:49 PM
09/17/13 02:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
GC, outstanding quote. Thank you.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156285
09/17/13 02:54 PM
09/17/13 02:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, converting and converted are two different realities. People are converted who are living in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. People are converting who have not yet learned to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Of course, they are converted to the light they have so far embraced. Bug they are not converted in the fullest sense.

Again, the Bible does not describe partially converted born-again, baptized believers.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156292
09/17/13 07:18 PM
09/17/13 07:18 PM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
That would be like pregnant and pregnanting, wouldn't it? Either one is converted or he is not converted. It is binary. A tertiary position is merely wishful thinking for those who cannot admit that they are not converted.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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