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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157791
10/31/13 07:59 PM
10/31/13 07:59 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
USA
APL; it is called God's "strange act" for a reason.

"God’s judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. “The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act.” Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is “merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, ... forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.” Yet He will “by no means clear the guilty.” “The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.” Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord’s reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God’s account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy.... {DD 43.4}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157792
10/31/13 08:42 PM
10/31/13 08:42 PM
APL  Offline
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James - READ The Great Controversy, page 36. UNDERSTAND it!

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." {GC 36.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157795
10/31/13 09:20 PM
10/31/13 09:20 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
"They set the ark upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, drove the cart. David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of musical instruments. “And when they came to Nachon’s threshing-floor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.” Uzzah was angry with the oxen, because they stumbled. He showed a manifest distrust of God, as though he who had brought the ark from the land of the Philistines, could not take care of it. Angels who attended the ark struck down Uzzah for presuming impatiently to put his hand upon the ark of God. {1SP 410.1}

OK. Who destroyed Uzzah?

God or Uzzah?

The angels did God's will for the sake of righteousness.

The same God who destroyed Uzzah for distrusting in His strength also destroyed the Philistines for looking into the Ark.

IT IS SIN THAT DESTROYS! Sin causes God to remove His protection from the wicked and the righteous.
First thought is, who killed Saul.

Isn't it interesting that you think God killed Uzzah for touching the Ark, but the Philistines (presumably?) touched it without dying? Whether they removed the cover or not?

In Malachi it is talking about the people returning to God. What does the following statement mean to you?
Quote:
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157797
10/31/13 09:36 PM
10/31/13 09:36 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
K: If Jesus causes disease, death, destruction, of what use do you think Jesus needs of satan?

M: Jesus also commands holy angels to cause death and destruction. He also commanded holy men to wage war and to execute capital punishment.

K: If Jesus causes disease, death, destruction, of what use do you think Jesus needs of satan?

Evil angels must be allowed to demonstrate their point of view. Nevertheless, Jesus sets limits and works to ensure evil men and angels do not exceed them.


I still seem to be having a problem of how that addresses the question. Does Jesus cause disease, death, destruction or doesn't He? If He does, then why does he need evil angels to do it? And what does setting limits have to do with the issue of whether He causes it or not? That sounds like you are saying He is obligated to work with them, but does set limits they cannot exceed. Like the government rewarding a contractor a job, but telling him exactly what to do.

(By the way, when you start a paragraph, #157785, with quotes, and you don't put a break in it, it's not readily apparent you added anything)

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157805
11/01/13 01:50 AM
11/01/13 01:50 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
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Originally Posted By: APL
James - READ The Great Controversy, page 36. UNDERSTAND it!

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." {GC 36.1}


I believe I do understand it APL.

Look, I am not saying that God does not let Satan have free reign over the wicked in the last days, I perfectly agree with that. Scripture totally supports this because the whole world wanders after the beast.

But for you to deny that God has used His righteous angels to destroy the wicked, to me this makes it obvious that you do not know how to rightly divide the word of truth.

God the Father will punish Satan for what he did to Jesus. Every confessed and forgiven sin will finally be put on the head of Azazel, the Scapegoat, Satan, and he will burn proportionate with the guilt of those sins. This punishment is from the glory of the Father. It is going to happen. And every other sinner since Satan who has not confessed receives their portion, proportionate to their own sins.

This worm will not go out until it has all been paid for.

There is a strong movement within the SDA church that believes what you are saying. They always seem to quote this exact quote in the GC page 36. They never seem to add this part of the book you quote...

“Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Did you notice that some of the same texts that are used in describing His second coming are used here for the second death scene? God the Father is the one who rains fire out of heaven.

“Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven." {GC 672.2}



Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157806
11/01/13 02:01 AM
11/01/13 02:01 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
I actually see the fire of God as merciful.

In the second resurrection they will be shown everything that led to their destruction. They will realize that they have forsaken the mercy of the Lord. They are going to be terrified. Blood will come out of their pores from terror. Their blood on their own heads.

No longer does the Spirit of God call them back from the brink. No Holy Angels to protect them any more, and totally cut off from the Father, this is the punishment of the second death. This is what Jesus went through in Gethsemane, and everyone who accepts Christ as their propitiation are accepting His second death for theirs.

So during all of this horror, God will put them out of their misery by raining fire down out of heaven to purify the earth. They will be like they never existed. Forever gone.

Where in this can you prove that we are wrong?



Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157808
11/01/13 02:21 AM
11/01/13 02:21 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
The problem with pantheism is that God becomes the cause of everything. This is what you are saying in your statement just now. However, on the day of final judgment, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. You can't make that claim.

Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death. Jesus commanded Moses to wage war. I realize you think none of this matters because you believe Jesus was simply accommodating the sinfulness of sinners. I believe otherwise. You also think permitting evil men and evil angels to wreak havoc means Jesus is free of culpability. I believe it means He is in control.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #157809
11/01/13 02:28 AM
11/01/13 02:28 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
M: Evil angels must be allowed to demonstrate their point of view. Nevertheless, Jesus sets limits and works to ensure evil men and angels do not exceed them.

K: I still seem to be having a problem of how that addresses the question. Does Jesus cause disease, death, destruction or doesn't He? If He does, then why does he need evil angels to do it? And what does setting limits have to do with the issue of whether He causes it or not? That sounds like you are saying He is obligated to work with them, but does set limits they cannot exceed. Like the government rewarding a contractor a job, but telling him exactly what to do.

Jesus doesn't need evil men or evil angels to wreak havoc. He permits them to do so. Job is an example. Setting and enforcing limits means Jesus is in control. They can do nothing without His permission.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157813
11/01/13 03:31 AM
11/01/13 03:31 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
M: Evil angels must be allowed to demonstrate their point of view. Nevertheless, Jesus sets limits and works to ensure evil men and angels do not exceed them.

K: I still seem to be having a problem of how that addresses the question. Does Jesus cause disease, death, destruction or doesn't He? If He does, then why does he need evil angels to do it? And what does setting limits have to do with the issue of whether He causes it or not? That sounds like you are saying He is obligated to work with them, but does set limits they cannot exceed. Like the government rewarding a contractor a job, but telling him exactly what to do.

Jesus doesn't need evil men or evil angels to wreak havoc. He permits them to do so. Job is an example. Setting and enforcing limits means Jesus is in control. They can do nothing without His permission.


Amen.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157814
11/01/13 03:41 AM
11/01/13 03:41 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
I actually see the fire of God as merciful.

In the second resurrection they will be shown everything that led to their destruction. They will realize that they have forsaken the mercy of the Lord. They are going to be terrified. Blood will come out of their pores from terror. Their blood on their own heads.

No longer does the Spirit of God call them back from the brink. No Holy Angels to protect them any more, and totally cut off from the Father, this is the punishment of the second death. This is what Jesus went through in Gethsemane, and everyone who accepts Christ as their propitiation are accepting His second death for theirs.

So during all of this horror, God will put them out of their misery by raining fire down out of heaven to purify the earth. They will be like they never existed. Forever gone.

Where in this can you prove that we are wrong?

We have the evidence of Christ. Christ died the death of a sinner. Did the Father execute Christ? Nope.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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