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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Rosangela] #158450
11/17/13 10:03 PM
11/17/13 10:03 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: rosangela
The essence of temptation is the same, whether for Jesus, for Adam and Eve before sin, or for us. And the superior the character,the stronger the temptation. 

"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours. With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us. {DA 116.4} 

Notice first that the sins were upon him BEFORE the cross. Also notice, that the reference you quote does not "the superior the character, the stronger the temptation". No, it says, that the temptations were urged upon Him to a much greater degree because of his superior character. He endured more, and not only that, His flesh we weakened because of sin, something that Adam and Eve did not experience before the fall.
Originally Posted By: rosangela
It is (is sin hereditary), but don't forget that at conception, a person receives DNA from both the father and mother.
Yes. half were from His Father, half from His mother. Not only that, but the whole birthing process had been modified because of sin.
Originally Posted By: EGW
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Rosangela] #158451
11/18/13 03:00 AM
11/18/13 03:00 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
But that he can manifest himself in flesh laden with sin and with all the tendencies of sin, such as ours is—that is a mystery.

This is not a mystery - this is a mistake.

biglaugh Very nicely put.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158452
11/18/13 03:16 AM
11/18/13 03:16 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Green and asygo say that we do not learn much about the character of God from the life of Christ on this earth.

That's not what I said. What I said is that you have a very small percentage of the total data related to "the life of Christ on this earth." You obviously do not comprehend the distinction. It's subtle, but significant. More algebra skill may be called for.

Given your documented history of miscomprehension, I don't know how anyone can take your statements too seriously.
What is the difference between "not much"(me) and "very little"(asygo)? I do have an engineering degree.

So let's delve into some solid mathematics.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.


Assuming you believe what John said, what is the upper limit of how much you know of Christ's earthly life (rounded off to the nearest hundredth of a percent)?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Rosangela] #158455
11/18/13 03:34 AM
11/18/13 03:34 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
But that he can manifest himself in flesh laden with sin and with all the tendencies of sin, such as ours is—that is a mystery.

This is not a mystery - this is a mistake.

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. ... He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. {5BC 1128.4}

Jones says exactly the opposite of what Ellen White says. Yet people perfer uninspired words over inspired words.

Thank you for this reminder, Rosangela.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #158462
11/18/13 05:08 AM
11/18/13 05:08 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
[quote=APL]Green and asygo say that we do not learn much about the character of God from the life of Christ on this earth.

That's not what I said. What I said is that you have a very small percentage of the total data related to "the life of Christ on this earth." You obviously do not comprehend the distinction. It's subtle, but significant. More algebra skill may be called for.

Given your documented history of miscomprehension, I don't know how anyone can take your statements too seriously.
What is the difference between "not much"(me) and "very little"(asygo)? I do have an engineering degree.

Originally Posted By: asygo
So let's delve into some solid mathematics.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.


Assuming you believe what John said, what is the upper limit of how much you know of Christ's earthly life (rounded off to the nearest hundredth of a percent)?
What time frame was John speaking about? John 21:24 This is the disciple which testifies of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

John was speaking of his personal eye witness account of Jesus's live on this earth.

Last edited by APL; 11/18/13 05:12 AM.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158466
11/18/13 05:43 AM
11/18/13 05:43 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
John was speaking of his personal eye witness account of Jesus's live on this earth.


I'd buy that. That just makes your mathematical difficulty so much the greater, considering that John speaks in terms of just the 3.5 years he witnessed Jesus' life. The world would be more than filled to include those other 27 years' worth of books to be written on Jesus' life.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158467
11/18/13 06:29 AM
11/18/13 06:29 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
This discussion arose around a quote in volume 8 of the testimonies, to which asygo said,
Originally Posted By: asygo
IIRC, APL's "several paragraphs" were quoted from 8T, a compilation of quotes from various sources. Find the primary source of "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son" and read the context.
He did not know that the testimonies were indeed the primary source of the quote. And if he had read the quote in context, then he would have known that what I said was indeed correct. Shall I quote the section in the primary source?

Let's take a look. 8T was published in March 1904.

VOLUME 8 WAS PUBLISHED TO MEET A CRISIS--THE GREATEST CRISIS WHICH THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH HAS EVER FACED. THE URGENCY OF THE MATTER IS EVIDENCED IN THAT THE BOOK CAME FROM THE PRESS IN MARCH, 1904...
THE TRUSTEES OF THE ELLEN G. WHITE PUBLICATIONS.


Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

In 1903 some very plain letters were written, warning our medical students against the danger of losing sight of the lessons of the Word, and learning instead the sophistries of the enemy. The subtleness of this danger is clearly pointed out in a letter written in October, and copied on November 5, 1903, addressed, "To Medical Students and Nurses:" B-240-'03.
...
Human talent and human conjecture have tried by searching to find out God. Many have trodden this pathway. The highest intellect may tax itself until it is wearied out, in conjectures regarding God, but the effort will be fruitless; and the fact will remain that man, by searching, can not find out God. This problem has not been given us to solve. All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son, the Great Teacher. As we learn more and more of what man is, of what we ourselves are, in God's sight, we shall fear and tremble before Him. {LLM 252-253}


From the year before 8T was published. It sounds strangely familiar, but longer and more context.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from sin. {8T 286.3}

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity, and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet he was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from spot or stain of sin. "We have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). In His strength men and women can live the life of purity and nobility that He lived.--Manuscript 124, 1903, pp. 1-6. ("A Personal God," October 14, 1903). {9MR 122-124}

Again, very familiar. Again, from 1903.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man. {8T 286.4}

Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate for others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God. And as Jesus was in human nature, so God means His followers to be. --Manuscript 7, 1891, p. 1. ("Christian Service in the Living Church," June 10, 1891.) {9MR 375.1}

1891, 13 years before 8T was published.

Either EGW had an incredible memory, able to reproduce her words so precisely, or somebody compiled some older material.

But look at this interesting bit from that same October 1903 letter:
While with the disciples, Christ had revealed to them all the knowledge of God that they could bear. The complete fulfillment of the promise that He would show them plainly of the Father, was yet to come. Thus it is today. Now we know in part only. When the conflict is ended, and the Man Christ Jesus acknowledges before the Father His faithful workers, who in a world of sin have borne true witness for Him, they will understand clearly what now are mysteries to them. {9MR 123.4}

"While with the disciples," Jesus didn't completely "show them plainly of the Father." It seems even the disciples themselves didn't get everything there was to get while Jesus was with them. And that passage, which is not in 8T, is from the same letter.

The truth often requires more digging than we like.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #158468
11/18/13 06:46 AM
11/18/13 06:46 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
This discussion arose around a quote in volume 8 of the testimonies, to which asygo said,
Originally Posted By: asygo
IIRC, APL's "several paragraphs" were quoted from 8T, a compilation of quotes from various sources. Find the primary source of "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son" and read the context.
He did not know that the testimonies were indeed the primary source of the quote. And if he had read the quote in context, then he would have known that what I said was indeed correct. Shall I quote the section in the primary source?

Let's take a look. 8T was published in March 1904.

VOLUME 8 WAS PUBLISHED TO MEET A CRISIS--THE GREATEST CRISIS WHICH THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH HAS EVER FACED. THE URGENCY OF THE MATTER IS EVIDENCED IN THAT THE BOOK CAME FROM THE PRESS IN MARCH, 1904...
THE TRUSTEES OF THE ELLEN G. WHITE PUBLICATIONS.


Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

In 1903 some very plain letters were written, warning our medical students against the danger of losing sight of the lessons of the Word, and learning instead the sophistries of the enemy. The subtleness of this danger is clearly pointed out in a letter written in October, and copied on November 5, 1903, addressed, "To Medical Students and Nurses:" B-240-'03.
...
Human talent and human conjecture have tried by searching to find out God. Many have trodden this pathway. The highest intellect may tax itself until it is wearied out, in conjectures regarding God, but the effort will be fruitless; and the fact will remain that man, by searching, can not find out God. This problem has not been given us to solve. All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son, the Great Teacher. As we learn more and more of what man is, of what we ourselves are, in God's sight, we shall fear and tremble before Him. {LLM 252-253}


From the year before 8T was published. It sounds strangely familiar, but longer and more context.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from sin. {8T 286.3}

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity, and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet he was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from spot or stain of sin. "We have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). In His strength men and women can live the life of purity and nobility that He lived.--Manuscript 124, 1903, pp. 1-6. ("A Personal God," October 14, 1903). {9MR 122-124}

Again, very familiar. Again, from 1903.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man. {8T 286.4}

Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate for others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God. And as Jesus was in human nature, so God means His followers to be. --Manuscript 7, 1891, p. 1. ("Christian Service in the Living Church," June 10, 1891.) {9MR 375.1}

1891, 13 years before 8T was published.

Either EGW had an incredible memory, able to reproduce her words so precisely, or somebody compiled some older material.

But look at this interesting bit from that same October 1903 letter:
While with the disciples, Christ had revealed to them all the knowledge of God that they could bear. The complete fulfillment of the promise that He would show them plainly of the Father, was yet to come. Thus it is today. Now we know in part only. When the conflict is ended, and the Man Christ Jesus acknowledges before the Father His faithful workers, who in a world of sin have borne true witness for Him, they will understand clearly what now are mysteries to them. {9MR 123.4}

"While with the disciples," Jesus didn't completely "show them plainly of the Father." It seems even the disciples themselves didn't get everything there was to get while Jesus was with them. And that passage, which is not in 8T, is from the same letter.

The truth often requires more digging than we like.


Thank you, Arnold, for this timely study. I appreciate your time and effort to bring these important truths to our attention.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #158469
11/18/13 02:11 PM
11/18/13 02:11 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Does God punish? The following excerpt from an article by Mrs. White in the Review and Herald seems to give us some light on the matter.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Lot chose Sodom for his home because he saw advantages to be gained there from a worldly point of view. But after he had established himself, and grown rich in earthly treasure, he was convinced that he had made a mistake in not taking into consideration the moral standing of the community in which he was to make his home. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 4}

The dwellers in Sodom were corrupt; vile conversation greeted his ears daily, and his righteous soul was vexed by the violence and crime which he was powerless to prevent. His children were becoming like these wicked people; for association with them had perverted their morals. Taking all these things into consideration, the worldly riches he had gained seemed small, not worth the price he had paid for them. His family connections were extensive, his children having married among the Sodomites. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 5}

The Lord's anger was finally kindled against the wicked inhabitants of the city. The angels of God visited Sodom to bring forth Lot, that he should not perish in the overthrow of the city. They bade him bring his family, his wife, and the sons and daughters who had married in wicked Sodom, and they told him to flee from the place; "for," said the angels, "we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it." {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 6}

And Lot went out and warned his children. He repeated the words of the angel, "Up, get thee out of this place, for the Lord will destroy this city!" But he seemed to his sons-in-law as one who mocked. And the daughters were influenced by their husbands. They were well enough off where they were. They had great possessions, and could not believe it possible that beautiful Sodom, in a rich and fertile country, would be destroyed by the wrath of a sin-avenging God. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 7}

Lot returned sorrowfully to the angels, and repeated the story of his failure. Then the angels commanded him to arise, and take his wife, and the two daughters who were yet in his house and leave the city. But Lot was sad; the thought of leaving his children and his wife, for she refused to go without them, almost broke his heart. They would all have perished in the terrible ruin of Sodom, had not the Lord, in his great mercy, sent his angels to the rescue. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 8}

Lot was paralyzed by the great calamity about to occur; he was stupefied with grief at the thought of leaving all that he held dear on earth. But as he lingered, the angels of God laid hold upon his hand, and the hands of his wife and two daughters, and brought them out of the city, and charged them to flee for their lives, neither to look behind them, nor to stay upon all the plain, but to escape to the mountains. How reluctant was Lot to obey the angel, and go as far as possible from corrupt Sodom, appointed to utter destruction. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 9}

Lot pleaded to remain; he distrusted God. Living in the wicked city had weakened his faith and confidence in the justice of the Lord. He pleaded that he could not do as he was required, lest some evil should overtake him, and he should die. Angels were sent on a special mission to save the lives of Lot and his family, but he had so long been surrounded by corrupting influences that his sensibilities were blunted, and he could not discern the works of God and his purposes; he could not trust himself in his hands to do his bidding. He was continually pleading for himself, and this unbelief caused the destruction of his wife. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 10}

She looked back to Sodom, murmuring against the dealings of God, and was changed to a pillar of salt, that she might stand as a warning to all those who disregard the special mercies and providences of Heaven. After this terrible retribution, Lot no longer dared to linger by the way, but fled into the mountains, according to the directions of the angels. The sinful conduct of his daughters after leaving Sodom was the result of wicked associations while there. The sense of right and wrong was confused in their minds, and sin did not appear as sin to them. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 11}

The case of Lot should be a warning to all those who wish to live a godly life, to separate themselves from all influences calculated to lead them away from God. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 12}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #158475
11/18/13 04:14 PM
11/18/13 04:14 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
John was speaking of his personal eye witness account of Jesus's live on this earth.


I'd buy that. That just makes your mathematical difficulty so much the greater, considering that John speaks in terms of just the 3.5 years he witnessed Jesus' life. The world would be more than filled to include those other 27 years' worth of books to be written on Jesus' life.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
John makes my point! So I don't have any mathematical problems at all!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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