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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #163222
03/10/14 05:27 PM
03/10/14 05:27 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Jesus said, "If you have seem me, you have seen the Father", John 14:9

It was Jesus who commanded the Jews to kill criminals and enemy combatants.

It was the Jews that rejected God and picked up the sword.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163223
03/10/14 05:54 PM
03/10/14 05:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Doesn't change or excuse the fact Jesus commanded them to kill criminals and combatants. Doesn't change the fact you believe Jesus commanded them to sin.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163225
03/10/14 07:36 PM
03/10/14 07:36 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
I believe it was right of them to obey Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants. It would have been wrong of them to disobey.


IF - IF - the people obeyed in the first place, they would have been in Canaan shortly after leaving Egypt and would not have needed to use the sword at all. It was not God's purpose that they should gain the land by warfare.[/quote]

Originally Posted By: MM
When the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit created mankind they knew that they would have to implement the plan of salvation and that they would have to fight and win the great controversy. They could have decided not to create mankind. Instead, they chose to create mankind and deal with the great controversy. Jesus knew in advance He would command the Jews to kill criminals and combatants.

The great controversy - I wonder what you think the controversy is about, hard for me to tell! God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth. Blink - all done. As EGW says in the book, The Desire of Ages. Why did God not do this? Sure would have saved a lot of problems, right? Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1} God's principles are not of this order! The use of force is contrary to God. We see this in His dealings with the Egyptians. (Yes, we do!) And we would have seen it if the people would have obeyed God and taken the land which was given to them as a gift. But they refused. They rebelled. They went backwards not forwards. They over and over and over and over rejected God's methods. WHY do WE today reject God's methods? We have no excuse!!!

Originally Posted By: MM
I believe it was right of them to obey Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants. It would have been wrong of them to disobey.


IF - IF - the people obeyed in the first place, they would have been in Canaan shortly after leaving Egypt and would not have needed to use the sword at all. It was not God's purpose that they should gain the land by warfare.

Originally Posted By: MM
When the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit created mankind they knew that they would have to implement the plan of salvation and that they would have to fight and win the great controversy. They could have decided not to create mankind. Instead, they chose to create mankind and deal with the great controversy. Jesus knew in advance He would command the Jews to kill criminals and combatants.

The great controversy - I wonder what you think the controversy is about, hard for me to tell! God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth. Blink - all done. As EGW says in the book, The Desire of Ages. Why did God not do this? Sure would have saved a lot of problems, right? Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1} God's principles are not of this order! The use of force is contrary to God. We see this in His dealings with the Egyptians. (Yes, we do!) And we would have seen it if the people would have obeyed God and taken the land which was given to them as a gift. But they refused. They rebelled. They went backwards not forwards. They over and over and over and over rejected God's methods. WHY do WE today reject God's methods? We have no excuse!!!

Originally Posted By: mm
"Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." Jesus does not say King David sinned because he obeyed Jesus' commands to kill criminals and enemy combatants.
Do you know any of the history of this verse, how it reads in other manuscripts? Regardless, what did Jesus do? Consider the woman taken in adultery, in the very act! Did Jesus condemn her? Nope. John 3:18-21 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #163240
03/11/14 01:28 PM
03/11/14 01:28 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
M: In conclusion, therefore, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin. . . . As I said, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.

K: Unless you have changed your definition of murder, killing those who have not killed others, you therefore, believe Jesus commanded the Jews to murder.

The difference between murder and obeying Jesus' command to kill is explained in the Bible. It is not murder when obeying Jesus' command to kill. Jesus commanded capital punishment. Executing capital punishment is not murder. Jesus commanded war. Killing enemy combatants in battle is not murder.

It is you, not I, who believes Jesus commanded the Jews to murder. It is you, not I, who believes Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.
MM, you seem to be straddling the fence, or jumping from one side to another.

You say one place where by your sheer definition it is not sin to obey whatever Jesus commands. Then you say it would be sin. But yet you say, obeying the command to kill means of itself that it is not murder. Why can't you just say that it is not sin following Jesus' command to murder?

What you mean is that you really don't have a definition of murder. You say it is explained in the Bible, but you demonstrate you do not know where at nor what the difference is.

Which is what I've said at the beginning. You don't know the difference between right and wrong, you make no distinction. So why do you object to saying that you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to murder? All you need to say is murder is not wrong if Jesus tells you to do it. Like the papacy.

I figured you'd add another. Killing, murder, capital punishment, and now war? Really?

Tell us, how is it justified for capital punishment against children? Ever know of a judge giving capital punishment to a child? But yet you think Jesus does. And you think that's not wrong? But oh, you say, it's war and "enemy combatants". A child is an "enemy combatant"? Really?


But then again, if you don't have a difference between murder and killing, then how could you possibly say that saying Jesus commanded the Jews to murder would be a sin?

You make no sense. You, confused by your own internal thoughts, contradict yourself.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163250
03/11/14 03:27 PM
03/11/14 03:27 PM
dedication  Offline

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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,485
Canada
And the devil wins in both sides of the argument that has been on the top of the list here for a long, long time.

For indeed God commanded the killing of commandment breakers and certain heathen in the OT dispensation.

And Christians, Muslims and other religions have thought, some still think and soon most will think that God has given them the command to carry on in this type of religious cleansing in the NT dispensation.

It's been the dreadful state of things in the dark ages, it's now happening in some other lands and will soon happen in our fair lands -- people will think they are obeying God's command in persecuting and killing those who refuse to follow the state proclaimed religion.


It would be far wiser to just leave this in the loving/righteous hands of our heavenly High Priest Who died to save a perishing world and give eternal life to all Who would come to Him and it is He alone that has the authority to declare who will live for eternity and who will not.



Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163253
03/11/14 04:14 PM
03/11/14 04:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
APL, Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. You avoid this truth at all cost.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163256
03/11/14 04:47 PM
03/11/14 04:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Kland
You say one place where by your sheer definition it is not sin to obey whatever Jesus commands.

I do not believe it is a sin to obey Jesus.

1. Moses did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

2. Joshua did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

3. Samuel did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

4. King David did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

5. King Solomon did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

Originally Posted By: Kland
Then you say it would be sin.

I have never said it is a sin to obey Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Kland
But yet you say, obeying the command to kill means of itself that it is not murder.

It is never a sin to obey Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Kland
Why can't you just say that it is not sin following Jesus' command to murder?

Saying so wouldn't make it so. The Bible makes a distinction between obeying Jesus and murder:

Quote:
Numbers
35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:18 Or [if] he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
35:27 And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:
35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.

You can have your own opinions but you cannot have not your own facts. The Bible is clear. "The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer . . . he shall not be guilty of blood"! The people who executed capital punishment were not guilty of blood or guilty of murder. "The murderer shall surely be put to death."

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: dedication] #163258
03/11/14 05:06 PM
03/11/14 05:06 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
And the devil wins in both sides of the argument that has been on the top of the list here for a long, long time.

For indeed God commanded the killing of commandment breakers and certain heathen in the OT dispensation.

And Christians, Muslims and other religions have thought, some still think and soon most will think that God has given them the command to carry on in this type of religious cleansing in the NT dispensation.

It's been the dreadful state of things in the dark ages, it's now happening in some other lands and will soon happen in our fair lands -- people will think they are obeying God's command in persecuting and killing those who refuse to follow the state proclaimed religion.


It would be far wiser to just leave this in the loving/righteous hands of our heavenly High Priest Who died to save a perishing world and give eternal life to all Who would come to Him and it is He alone that has the authority to declare who will live for eternity and who will not.

God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. If you really want to know what God is like, look at Jesus.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163260
03/11/14 05:29 PM
03/11/14 05:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Jesus commanded the Jews to kill criminals and combatants.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #163273
03/12/14 12:41 AM
03/12/14 12:41 AM
dedication  Offline

Global Moderator
5000+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,485
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus commanded the Jews to kill criminals and combatants.


God had His reasons for doing what He did back then, but we know that since the cross we no longer live in a theocratic society, we live under the kingdom of grace in which the light from the cross defines the results of sin and the assurance of salvation.

If you really want to know where all this may be leading you just go to the Ezekiel 9 thread and you will see where this is leading.

(Though a lot of people can't see beyond the exchange of quotes as to what the agenda really is)

We are warned--

Quote:
"The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren, and to excite indignation against them. Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 463


Ezekiel nine is being used by several groups of "offshoots" to declare nearly all Adventists must be killed before the message goes out to the world -- before the Sunday laws even come.

All it will take is for some self proclaimed prophet who has a zealous following to declare God commanded him to do it so the "last work can move forward" and ......

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