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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication] #163641
03/23/14 07:57 AM
03/23/14 07:57 AM
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Wendell Slattery  Offline
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Dedication,

I am saying that six of the seven trumpets blow before 1844, so I think we are in agreement there. The only things I am thinking are significantly different are the 6th and 7th trumpets, and these are relatively minor differences. I see the 6th trumpet as not a time period but a specific event at a point in time that was long ago set by God. That event is the battle for Constantinople in 1453, so that the 6th trumpet is done and gone long before 1844. I see the 7th trumpet as Muslim in nature just as the first two woes are Muslim, so that began later than 1844. These are the only two differences I know about.

I was not mixing in the trumpets with the 7 thunders, but that is an easy mistake for some to make.

Last edited by Wendell Slattery; 03/23/14 08:12 AM.
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Wendell Slattery] #163642
03/23/14 08:09 AM
03/23/14 08:09 AM
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Wendell Slattery  Offline
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Karen Y,

The biggest problem I have is that the angel said "no more time!" in Revelation 10. He did not qualify it and say that if it had no beginning date, then that was excepted. No, he just said "no more time!" Period. Thus, this is an absolute. There is no way around it. You cannot have any specific time period, literal or symbolic, with or without a specified starting date, after 1844. I would like it to be after 1844 as it probably would make it easier to understand and explain, but I realize that I cannot make it what it is not. God set the parameters of this and I cannot change them. We have to fit the interpretation within the limits he sets.

You can do as you wish on this, but because of this constraint put in the Bible by God, I cannot put any prophecy that has any time period in it after 1844. The trumpets begin and go in sequence, so if the 5th trumpet has a time period, it too has to end by 1844 or earlier, and all previous trumpets must end before it begins. And the 6th trumpet, which many think has a time period with it, must also end by or before 1844 (I am of the personal opinion that it refers to a specific point in time, that it identifies those who do this trumpet as the Turks, so it must also occur before 1844 - I see it as the battle for Constantinople in 1453). The 7th trumpet is the only trumpet of the trumpet woes (trumpets 5-7) that for sure has no time period in it, and it must follow the other trumpets in sequence with them. Therefore, it can occur after 1844. It is specified to blow before the anger of the nations begins and its connection in Revelation 11:15 with the Investigative Judgment indicates that it is an event which leads directly to the end events and the end of the Investigative Judgment.

Last edited by Wendell Slattery; 03/23/14 08:59 AM.
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #163665
03/24/14 04:30 PM
03/24/14 04:30 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Quote:
It matters not whether this is literal time or symbolic time that is spoken of because there just simply is no more prophesied time periods after 1844.

Quote:
After the sixth trumpet, the time lines had all ended.

Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Wendell Slattery] #163670
03/25/14 01:21 AM
03/25/14 01:21 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
Quote:
You can do as you wish on this, but because of this constraint put in the Bible by God, I cannot put any prophecy that has any time period in it after 1844. The trumpets begin and go in sequence, so if the 5th trumpet has a time period, it too has to end by 1844 or earlier, and all previous trumpets must end before it begins.

Good point.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: kland] #163671
03/25/14 01:27 AM
03/25/14 01:27 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
Quote:
Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

What the SDABC says about this passage:

Some have taken the “one hour” of ch. 17:12 as prophetic time, according to which it would represent a period of about two weeks of literal time. However, the context seems to imply otherwise. It is generally recognized that ch. 18 gives a more detailed explanation of events described in ch. 17:12–17. But the period of time designated as “one day” in ch. 18:8 is also called “one hour” in vs. 10, 17, 19, the obvious intent of Inspiration being to indicate a brief period of time without specifying its exact length. Accordingly, it seems preferable to take the expression “one hour” in ch. 17:12 in the same sense, as indicating a brief but unspecified period of “time.”

Quote:
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

But this is not prophetic time, this is literal time.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication] #163685
03/25/14 06:48 PM
03/25/14 06:48 PM
K
Karen Y  Online Content OP
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 496
Michigan, US
If the purpose of the seventh trumpet is to announce the Day of Atonement which I truly believe so, shouldn't it be all the same of each trumpet's function? I do not think that during the each Christian Era 'the inhabiters of the earth'-the whole world was warned about the judgment of God by the trumpet's sound. Thus, the warning of the seven trumpets has to be for the final warning to the world in the apocalyptic sealing.

According to Ezekiel 9:10, the justice of God was executed upon the impenitent only after the angel of mercy had completed his sealing work which is the prelude to the outpouring of the wrath of God in the seven last plagues of Rev 16.

In the fifth trumpet, there is a command of God that 'they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads'(Chap 9:4). This verse portrays the final issue of the Sabbath as the seal of God which I think, conclusively, that the fifth trumpet has to occur after 1844.

We are told about the seven trumpets that the earth(1st trumpet), sea(2nd), rivers and fountains of water(3rd) and the heavenly bodies(4th) are effected as to many death to men-'many men died of the waters(Chap 8:11)' etc. Would these be the warnings of the 'health messages' in the first four trumpets?

I perceive that the first four trumpets are the warnings of the physical in nature as compared to the three woes of the spiritual in nature.

We are also told that men blaspheme the name of God and they repent not (Rev 16:9-4th plague). How can this happen without any warnings for the outpouring of the wrath of God? The Scripture also mentions of the spiritual rebellion in Rev 16:11 -5th plague- "And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds". Rev 16:21-7th plague-"…and men blasphemed God…"

At the sounding of the fifth angel’s trumpet, we are told “the bottomless pit was opened, and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit” (chap.9:2). This, doubtless, explains the darkness that fills the kingdom of the Beast when the fifth angel’s bowl of wrath is poured upon the seat of the Beast(Chap 16:10). It is judicial darkness brought about by demoniacal delusions.

Let's observe further the plagues and the seven trumpets which indicate the warnings of what's coming in the seven last plagues.

Rev 16:2 "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image".
Rev 8:7 "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up".
The hail and fire mixed with blood indicate the sick condition of men's health in the first trumpet which will consume the trees and grass in symbolic terms of men.
Notice also that the sphere of this plague is the earth as the first trumpet. I wonder if an universal health care will culminate all the people to receive the 'mark of the beast' as indicated in the first plague.

In the same way the second angel’s bowl links with the second angel’s trumpet, which affected the sea.

Rev 16:3 "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea".

Rev 8:8-9 "And he second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and has life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed."

The consuming the sea creatures to eat will eventually bring death to men because the ' great mountain'-like disasters of pollution occur upon the sea.

The third angel’s trumpet affected the rivers and fountains of waters, and in Rev 16:4 we read, “The third angel poured out his bowl upon the rivers and fountains of waters: and they became blood.” Thus the very sources of life are destroyed as the third trumpet has warned. Rev 8:10:11 "And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."

The fourth angel’s bowl is poured out upon the sun, even as at the sounding of the fourth trumpet the third part of the sun was smitten. In Rev 16:8-9 we read, “power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God,…”

Please see the above which I already commented on the fifth plague and trumpet.

The great world-conflict is depicted in the sixth bowl of the plague which will be the direct result of the working of demons, for we are told that three unclean frog-like spirits came out of the mouths of the dragon, the Beast, and the false prophet—demons working miracles, visiting the kingdoms of world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. This will be the great and final Armageddon conflict—the place where they will meet one another in an attempt to settle the final issues.
In the sixth trumpet, the four angels loose their hold at once, immediately, when there is a command of God from the golden altar which depicts His mercy reached the limit.

The seventh angel’s bowl is poured out into the air, and we are told,
“There came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in rememberance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great”(Rev 16:17-21).
The seventh trumpet announces the same thing as the plague, "…The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;…(Rev 11:15)"

I believe that the message of the seven trumpets should sound as the warning to the whole world for the coming wrath of God in the seven plagues.

Blessings,

Karen

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #163693
03/25/14 08:37 PM
03/25/14 08:37 PM
dedication  Online Content
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,504
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Originally Posted By: Karen Y
If the purpose of the seventh trumpet is to announce the Day of Atonement which I truly believe so, shouldn't it be all the same of each trumpet's function? I do not think that during the each Christian Era 'the inhabiters of the earth'-the whole world was warned about the judgment of God by the trumpet's sound. Thus, the warning of the seven trumpets has to be for the final warning to the world in the apocalyptic sealing.


If the seventh trumpet announces the Day of Atonement, why would all the rest also announce it?

Yes, they are warnings throughout the Christian history.
But people don't like to study history I think ?

It's by studying the history that we see how the opposition works.
It's not natural calamities that we must fear, they can only take the present life which is short anyways. It's the forces aligned against truth that we must fear, for they seek to rob us of eternal life.

By studying the trumpets in their historical setting we see the forces against truth and how God has restrained them in the past. After the seventh trumpet is finished those forces will be no more.

in other words --
Strong as those forces may seem to be, history shows they do not triumph, and they will not triumph. Keep your faith and commitment firmly in the Lord, for His kingdom of righteousness will NEVER be destroyed, and those who cling to His gift of salvation even if the whole world is against them, will live FOREVER!



Originally Posted By: Karen
In the fifth trumpet, there is a command of God that 'they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads'(Chap 9:4). This verse portrays the final issue of the Sabbath as the seal of God which I think, conclusively, that the fifth trumpet has to occur after 1844.


Not necessarily.
Paul speaks of the sealing in his day already.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Eph. 1:13 [Christ]in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


The "seal" is the mark that these people are citizens of God's kingdom; with God's law written in their minds, and their citizenship in the New Jerusalem.

It's true that in the end it is imperative to have that seal before probation closes, for after probation closes there is no more turning.

Yet history fits well with that verse, for when the Saracen Arabs started their conquest, their commander told them --
"Destroy no palm trees nor burn any fields of corn, cut down no fruit trees, nor do any mischief to cattle, only such as you kill to eat. ...You will find some religious person who lives in retirement and propose to themselves to serve God that way; let them alone, neither kill them nor destroy their monasteries; but you will find another sort of people that belong to the synagogue of Satan, who have shaven crowns; be sure you cleave their skulls, and give them no quarter till they either turn Mahometans or pay tribute;" (Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of Roman Empire v-3 145,146)

In those first conquests by Muslims during the fifth trumpet apostolic Christians in the eastern Roman Empire (who tended to be in hiding due to persecution by Emperor Heraclius) were spared, while the Catholic monks and clergy were not.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: kland] #163753
03/28/14 03:57 PM
03/28/14 03:57 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Posts: 6,445
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

What the SDABC says about this passage:

Some have taken the “one hour” of ch. 17:12 as prophetic time, according to which it would represent a period of about two weeks of literal time. However, the context seems to imply otherwise. It is generally recognized that ch. 18 gives a more detailed explanation of events described in ch. 17:12–17. But the period of time designated as “one day” in ch. 18:8 is also called “one hour” in vs. 10, 17, 19, the obvious intent of Inspiration being to indicate a brief period of time without specifying its exact length. Accordingly, it seems preferable to take the expression “one hour” in ch. 17:12 in the same sense, as indicating a brief but unspecified period of “time.”

Quote:
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

But this is not prophetic time, this is literal time.


First, all time concerning prophecy is prophetic time. But it may be either literal or symbolic.

Second, the comment I was addressing was:
Quote:
It matters not whether this is literal time or symbolic time that is spoken of because there just simply is no more prophesied time periods after 1844.

So whether it is literal or symbolic, it is still time, and it is still time prophesied after 1844, therefore, negating the comment.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #163756
03/28/14 07:53 PM
03/28/14 07:53 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
First, all time concerning prophecy is prophetic time. But it may be either literal or symbolic.

Well, terms must be defined. If you wish to define them this way, it's ok. However, you must remember that, according to your definition, Ellen White's statement would also be wrong, for she says that 1844 was the end of prophetic time.

This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}

Quote:
So whether it is literal or symbolic, it is still time, and it is still time prophesied after 1844, therefore, negating the comment.

I agree.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #163758
03/28/14 10:22 PM
03/28/14 10:22 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,126
Nova Scotia, Canada
The quote speaks about no definite prophetic time, such as in date setting, however, there still remains the prophecies dealing with time frames that are unknown to us as far as date setting goes, such as the second coming, the 1000 years in heaven, etc.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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