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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165779
06/08/14 05:06 AM
06/08/14 05:06 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
To receive we must open the door of faith, and allow Christ into our lives.


I agree. Faith is obedience. To receive, we must be obedient.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8). But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead" (James 2:17). Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart" (Psalm 40:8). And just before He ascended again to heaven, He declare, "I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" (John 15:10). The Scriptures says, "Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (1 John 2:3). . . . {RC 274.4}


Grace is God's gift. Faith is our own action. Those who have not faith will not be saved. While God gives every person a measure of faith, it is only our choice which can exercise it. We must be obedient, through submission to God's requirements. Faith, without this obedience, is dead. It's a bit like saying God grants us the spark, and we must keep the flame alive through our own obedience.

Originally Posted By: dedication
That's like saying a parent helps a baby to walk only after they have shown their own walking ability.


That's not an accurate illustration. Here's one that's better:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
If you are sowing faith, rendering obedience to Christ, you will reap faith and power for future obedience. If you are seeking to be a blessing to others, God will bless you. . . . The joy we give to others will be reflected upon us again, for as we sow, we shall reap. . . . {TMK 92.4}


We sow faith through obedience, and God gives us power for future obedience. We merely seek to bless others, and God blesses us so that we can be a blessing to them. We may sow, but God gives the harvest.

If we compare to the child walking, we are comparing apples and oranges. I might say that when the child seeks to walk, by beginning to try to stand up and move forward, that is when the parent also begins to help. No parent that I know would force a crawling baby who had not begun to stand to get up and walk. The baby must make an effort first on his or her own. But, again, this is all "apple." The "orange" is when in court, the father stands in the place of the baby and the baby's imperfections are overlooked on account of the father's impeccable record.

Jesus substitutes His perfect record for our flawed and imperfect one. Even if the baby learns to walk perfectly, by the father's help, the baby will still have an imperfect record from the prior falls and mistakes. The father's record substitutes for that of the child. However, if the child refuses to exercise his or her limbs, never even attempts to stand or to perfect his or her character traits, the baby will find that the "obedience" of walking never becomes his or hers, neither on his/her own, nor in the record book--for the Substitute's record does not apply. The record, it seems, is a measure of how well the individual obeyed, not if.

Mrs. White says to be saved, we must act out our faith in obedience. "Obey and be saved" is the message we see. We obey, and God saves us. God does not save those who do not obey. Our obedience does not save us nor make us worthy--salvation is a gift of grace--but our obedience is a prerequisite to God's ability to make His salvation available to us. God cannot save the disobedient. They would not be safe to save.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Those who have had living faith in the messages of God for the time in which they have lived, and who have acted out their faith in obedience to his commands, have been accepted of God, and have escaped the judgments that were to fall upon the disobedient and unbelieving. The word came to Noah, "Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me." Noah obeyed and was saved. The message came to Lot, "Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city." He placed himself under the guardianship of the heavenly messengers, and was saved. Those who obeyed the warning of Christ in marking the sign of the coming ruin, and in fleeing from Jerusalem, were not involved in her destruction. The message comes in our own time, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen. . . . Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Those who obey this message will escape the terrible plagues that will surely be visited upon her. {RH, November 5, 1889 par. 11}


God bless,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #165781
06/08/14 05:47 AM
06/08/14 05:47 AM
dedication  Online Content OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: dedication
We are far to prone to take sentences from EGW's writings and use them as "proof texts" to bolster our own ideas, and thereby totally miss the bigger picture. There is very little real Bible study here.

I hear what you are saying. However, including inspired insights and testimonies here hardly counts against "real Bible study". If Ellen White were alive and posting here I doubt we would feel like "very little real Bible study" is happening. Many of the SOP quotes posted here include Bible texts.


But EGW isn't here -- I wonder if she would read these threads if she would faint in agony of spirit realizing how her writings were being used.
How is it that two opposing sides on so many issues can both quote her so much each thinking they have the "authority" of a prophet on their side?

She wrote a caution concerning this matter:
Quote:
Many from among our own people are writing to me, asking with earnest determination the privilege of
using my writings to give force to certain subjects that they wish to present to the people...I dare not give the least license for using my writings in the manner which they propose. In taking account of such an enterprise, there are many things that must come into consideration; for in using the testimonies to bolster up some subject which may impress the mind of the author, the extracts may give a different impression than that which they would were they read in their original connection. {Christian Writers 152.3}and {1SM 58.3}




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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165783
06/08/14 05:55 AM
06/08/14 05:55 AM
APL  Offline
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The extracts - but today we can read the original printed material in context for free on the web or for $20 on our computers. And next year, we will have all her material available.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165786
06/08/14 06:09 AM
06/08/14 06:09 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
And next year, we will have all her material available.
This is topic, but can you PM me more about this or start another thread with more info? I haven't heard anything about this. Thank you!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #165789
06/08/14 06:36 AM
06/08/14 06:36 AM
dedication  Online Content OP
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: dedication
To receive we must open the door of faith, and allow Christ into our lives.


I agree. Faith is obedience. To receive, we must be obedient.

No, you are not agreeing at all.
Faith precedes obedience, faith manifests itself in obedience, but faith is not synonymous with obedience.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
11:3 Through faith we understand .....

Faith is believing, faith is trusting, faith is understanding and believing God's word.

True faith leads to obedience, as the chapter continues to point out, but you are saying
we must first produce the obedience and then God will give us the "gift of obedience". That is backwards and doesn't work.



Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Ellen White quote:
The so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God is not faith, but presumption.


I didn't say faith releases people from the obligation of obedience.
What I'm saying is without faith and the gift of obedience from God IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to render obedience to God.

It is of utmost importance to understand one must FIRST ACCEPT the gift of grace and acceptance by God, BEFORE it is possible to render the type of obedience that God desires.


Originally Posted By: Green
Grace is God's gift. Faith is our own action. It's a bit like saying God grants us the spark, and we must keep the flame alive through our own obedience.


Faith is part of God's gift of grace as well.
Yes, there is a growth of faith as we exercise faith. Learning to rely fully upon God and walk with Him in obedience increases faith.
Yet, why do you say "our own obedience"?

Where is the "walking with God" in that?
Why are we walking on our own here?
We walk on our own and we disconnect from the power.

Originally Posted By: green
[quote=dedication]That's like saying a parent helps a baby to walk only after they have shown their own walking ability.


That's not an accurate illustration.

No parent that I know would force a crawling baby who had not begun to stand to get up and walk. The baby must make an effort first on his or her own. [quote]

You're right, it is not an accurate illustration. For babies can learn to walk on their own if they have the initiative to do so.
But we can NEVER render true obedience of real righteousness on our own.
Probably a better illustration would be a baby born with deformed legs, who needs the professional assistance to correct that problem before he can walk.
Thus we need Christ before it's even possible for us to walk on the genuine paths of righteousness.

But even that illustration is not adequate, for we ALWAYS need to be walking with Christ in the paths of righteousness, and can not walk on own. Without Him we can do nothing, with Him all things are possible.

Originally Posted By: green
God does not save those who do not obey. Our obedience does not save us nor make us worthy--salvation is a gift of grace--but our obedience is a prerequisite to God's ability to make His salvation available to us.


Right, God does not save those who do not obey, because they didn't believe in Him and trust Him, so He could not raise them to newness of life.

But obedience is NOT prerequisite to God's ability to make salvation available to us.

God first makes His salvation available to us, and we MUST believe that in order to have the faith and trust in God that manifests itself in obedience.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165791
06/08/14 08:41 AM
06/08/14 08:41 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Here's a couple of statements that express the truth better than I can.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Self-denial will enable those who have done nothing in the past to do something tangible, and show that they believe the teachings of the word, that they believe the truth for this time. All, both old and young, parents and children, are to show their faith by their works. Faith is made perfect by works. We are in the very closing scenes of this earth's history; yet there are but few who realize this because the world has come in between God and the soul.--Letter 81, 1897.

It is true that there are many who have never had the light of present truth, who, through the grace given them of Christ, are keeping the law as far as they understand it. Those who are thus living up to the best light they have, are not of the class whom the apostle John condemns. His words apply to those who boast of believing in Jesus, who claim holiness, while they lightly regard the requirements of the law of God. While they talk of the love of Jesus, their love is not deep enough to lead to obedience. The fruit they bear, shows the character of the tree. It proves that their faith is not genuine. Yet this class, though entitled to nothing, though they have no right to the promises of God, boldly claim all His blessings. While they give nothing, they claim everything. They close their ears to the truth, refuse to listen to the plain "Thus saith the Lord," but by professing holiness they deceive many, leading souls away by their pretentious faith that has no foundation.--Gospel Workers, pp. 226, 227. (1892) {Ev 596.3}


And here's the best one.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6). There are many in the Christian world who claim that all that is necessary to salvation is to have faith; works are nothing, faith is the only essential. But God's Word tells us that faith without works is dead, being alone. Many refuse to obey God's commandments, yet they make a great deal of faith. But faith must have a foundation. {FW 47.1}

God's promises are all made upon conditions. If we do His will, if we walk in truth, then we may ask what we will, and it shall be done unto us. While we earnestly endeavor to be obedient, God will hear our petitions; but He will not bless us in disobedience. If we choose to disobey His commandments, we may cry, "Faith, faith, only have faith," and the response will come back from the sure Word of God, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20). Such faith will only be as sounding brass and as a tinkling cymbal. In order to have the benefits of God's grace we must do our part; we must faithfully work and bring forth fruits meet for repentance. {FW 47.2}

We are workers together with God. You are not to sit in indolence, waiting for some great occasion, in order to do a great work for the Master. You are not to neglect the duty that lies directly in your pathway, but you are to improve the little opportunities that open around you. . . . {FW 47.3}


Now, if it is true that God will not bless us in disobedience, how will He bless us with obedience who are still in disobedience? That kind of thinking creates an unsolvable cycle of sin, a catch 22.

We must put forth some effort, demonstrating through action that we do have faith (without which we would not have faith), before God can grant us the promised blessing.

Remember the priests who put their feet in the water before it parted. Remember the lame man who chose to stand, and tried, before his legs made him able to do so. Remember Abraham whose hand was already committed to the slaying of his son in obedience to God's directions before God lauded his "faith." These people acted before the reality of the blessing had even come to them. It is this action which the Bible terms "faith." Faith is not a mere assent to the truth. It is not a mere belief. It is an action that demonstrates that one truly believes.

Look closely at God's words to Abraham in the following:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Abraham did not stop to question how God's promises could be fulfilled if Isaac were slain. He did not stay to reason with his aching heart, but carried out the divine command to the very letter, till, just as the knife was about to be plunged into the quivering flesh of the child, the word came: "Lay not thine hand upon the lad;" "for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." {CC 56.4}


Only after this obedience did God credit Abraham with "fearing" Him. (The term "fear" is a mix of obey, honor, and worship, as I understand it.) If God is testing Abraham here, as we all know He was, why would this "test" have been a true test if God were "giving" Abraham this obedience? Obviously, Abraham is acting of his own will. He is demonstrating his faith on his own as best he can. We must do likewise. God helps those who help themselves.

Now, getting closer to the point of this discussion, our faith is shown in our effort to obey--which then unlocks heaven's storehouse of blessing and strength to help us obey more perfectly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #165798
06/08/14 02:54 PM
06/08/14 02:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Our obedience may never be perfect, and can never save us--for all have sinned and come under the penalty of death as a result--but when we do all in our power, God will then work in our behalf to save us from sin and destruction.

To clarify this . . . Our works will never be perfect, because we have already sinned. We can, however, become sanctified to a point where we perfectly reproduce the character of Christ. . . I hope this is more clear.

Yes, very clear. I totally agree. Again, on this thread, it is important to stress the reason our works cannot save us is due to the plain and simple fact it lacks merit. We are saved "unto" good works - not "by" our good works. "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . in Christ Jesus unto good works". Eph 2:8-10.

It is also important, on this thread, to emphasize that the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "righteousness and true holiness" - not sin stained, defiled, defective, imperfect fruit. "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit". Mat 7:18. "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7. "He that committeth sin is of the devil". 1 John 3:8. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9. "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not". 1 John 5:18.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Mountain Man] #165800
06/08/14 03:13 PM
06/08/14 03:13 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. The divine law, to which we are brought into subjection, is "the law of liberty." James 2:12. {DA 466.5}

We are to do all that we can do on our part to fight the good fight of faith. We are to wrestle, to labor, to strive, to agonize to enter in at the strait gate. We are to set the Lord ever before us. With clean hands, with pure hearts, we are to seek to honor God in all our ways. Help has been provided for us in Him who is mighty to save. The spirit of truth and light will quicken and renew us by its mysterious workings; for all our spiritual improvement comes from God, not from ourselves. The true worker will have divine power to aid him, but the idler will not be sustained by the Spirit of God. {FW 48.1}

In one way we are thrown upon our own energies; we are to strive earnestly to be zealous and to repent, to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts from every defilement; we are to reach the highest standard, believing that God will help us in our efforts. We must seek if we would find, and seek in faith; we must knock, that the door may be opened unto us. The Bible teaches that everything regarding our salvation depends upon our own course of action. If we perish, the responsibility will rest wholly upon ourselves. If provision has been made, and if we accept God's terms, we may lay hold on eternal life. We must come to Christ in faith, we must be diligent to make our calling and election sure. {FW 48.2} [/quote]

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165801
06/08/14 03:37 PM
06/08/14 03:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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1) God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be 2) continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

There are many who want to know what they must do to be saved. They want a plain and clear explanation of the steps requisite in conversion . . . {Ev 188.1}

Unless we accept divine aid we cannot take the first step toward the Saviour. {1SM 381.2}

The first step toward salvation is to respond to the drawing of the love of Christ. {AG 99.5}

Repentance is the first step that must be taken by all who would return to God. {PP 590.2}

The first step toward restoration is obedience to [the] words, "Let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with Me, and he shall make peace with Me." {BCL 116.4}

Conviction of sin is the first step in conversion, and by the law is the knowledge of sin. When the sinner has a realization of his sin, he is in a condition to be drawn to Christ by the amazing love that has been shown for him on the cross of Calvary. {ST, July 7, 1890 par. 5}

The following short article is the best, the most concise explanation of the steps we must take to be saved and to stay saved:

Quote:
Many think that repentance is a work which devolves wholly upon man, but this is an error. The Bible does not teach that man must repent before he comes to Christ. Repentance must precede forgiveness; but the sinner does not repent till he has faith in Christ as his mediator. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. His love, shining from the cross, speaks eloquently of the sufferings of the only-begotten Son of God for fallen man. This love draws sinners to Him. The transgressor may resist this love; he may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist, he will be led to the foot of the cross, in repentance for the sins that caused the death of the Son of God. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 1}

If it were possible for man of himself to repent, Christ's atoning sacrifice would be in vain. But this is not possible. Repentance comes from Christ just as verily as does pardon. It is a false theory which teaches that repentance is a work which man must do himself, without any special help from Christ. If one step in the way of salvation could be taken without Christ, every step could be taken without Him. But without His help, the sinner can not take the first step in this way. The grace that brings forgiveness brings also contrition and repentance. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 2}

It is true that great reformations in outward conduct are made by those who have never expressed faith in Christ, and who may not have even a knowledge of Him. But it is none the less true that it is the influence of His grace that put into their hearts the desire to reform. The change in their life is the result of a blind faith. Ignorantly they worship that which leads them to respect true manhood. If they continue to walk toward the light, increased light will shine upon them; and they will bow in adoration before God, filled with gratitude for the love that led Him to give His only-begotten Son as a sacrifice for the lost race. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 3}

The repentance that God accepts is a repentance that needs not to be repented of,--a repentance revealed by a radical change of mind and heart. The heart must be brought into subjection to Christ, and a repentance that brings about such a change can never originate with man. Only from Him who declared, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me," can such repentance proceed. As the sinner yields to the drawing power of Christ's love, sorrow for sin and a desire to turn from his evil ways fill his heart, and as he seeks help from God, strength from on high is given him. The Saviour says, "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 4}

Those whom God pardons He first makes penitent. Some will say that this leaves man with nothing to do, with no part in the struggle against sin. This is not so; all the powers with which man has been entrusted must be employed in the effort to do the will of God. Man can never be saved in indolence. Christ declared, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work;" and those for whom He has given His life are to be co-workers with Him. We must watch and pray, lest we enter into temptation. We must fight against pride, self-exaltation, jealousy, evil thinking, and evil-speaking. Our earnest effort to overcome the evil in our characters will make manifest the sincerity of our prayers. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 5}

We must exercise faith in God. "Without faith it is impossible to please Him; for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." It is by faith alone that we can claim His promise, saying, "I receive the things I ask for; Thy Word is sure; it can not fail." {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 6}

We must be willing to realize our need. Those who feel that they are sinful and poor and wretched are the very ones to whom the invitation of mercy is extended. Jesus says, "I came not to call the righteous,"--those who are clothed with the garments of their own righteousness,--"but sinners to repentance." Those who are rich and honorable in their own estimation do not hunger and thirst after righteousness. They feel no need; therefore they do not ask for and receive the blessing of God. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 7}

Without the help of the Saviour, fallen man could never keep the law of God. But how glorious is the truth of the atonement? What a firm foundation have the saints of the Most High on which to place their hope of salvation! Not one of God's promises can fail. Through the righteousness of Christ the condemned sinner may be purified and made white. The Redeemer has carried the world's burden of guilt and woe, and He is able to strengthen His children for the conflicts that day by day they will meet in the path to heaven. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 8}

Thus the plan of redemption is laid open to us, so that every soul may see the steps he is to take in repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, in order to be saved in God's appointed way . . . {SC 107.2}

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165802
06/08/14 03:42 PM
06/08/14 03:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Dedication, I seriously doubt Sister White would be upset about the post above.

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