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Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #17002
02/27/06 05:51 PM
02/27/06 05:51 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Tom, please don't take this wrong, but I purchased the sacred gifts of the True Witness several years ago, and continue in them to this day. To doubt is to disbelieve, and to disbelieve is to distrust, and to distrust to crucify Christ afresh - something, by the grace of God, I refuse to do.
I think you would do well to read the sermon I suggested. Maybe I'll quote some excepts from it. According to the bearer(!) of the message, he himself was "poor and miserable and wretched and blind and naked" and "knew it not." Was he disbelieving and not trusting?

quote:
Also, the Devil owns us by default.
No, not true. Christ purchased us. We are His (unless we choose not to be).

quote:
We are his possession until we chose to be born again.
Christ purchased us with His blood. We are His. He has a claim on us. It's because we are His that it is such a sin to not give ourselves to Him who died for us.

quote:
We are "carnal, sold under sin." He has control of our will until we surrender it to Jesus. We are natural born slaves of sin, the servants of Satan. Sinning is our legacy, and, unless we are born again, sinning is our destiny. There is no neutral ground, no in between place where we neither serve Satan nor Jesus.
This is pretty much true, but I would emphasize that His grace is constantly drawing us, and we will be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for our sin, unless we continually resist. The goodness of God is leading us to repentance.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #17003
02/27/06 08:11 PM
02/27/06 08:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Okay, I can agree that Jesus earned the right on the cross to own our sin and second death, but He did not earn the right to save our souls in heaven against our will. Thus, we are not saved in heaven by default. We must choose to be saved, not choose to be lost. Jesus earned the right to grant us a temporal existence, but He did not earn the right to save us in heaven against our will. By default we are lost.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #17004
02/27/06 08:38 PM
02/27/06 08:38 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM:Okay, I can agree that Jesus earned the right on the cross to own our sin and second death, but He did not earn the right to save our souls in heaven against our will.

Jesus earning the right to do this or that is not an issue. The issue is how to reconcile us to God. God reconciles us to Himself by revealing His character to us through His Son. This is the whole purpose of Christ's ministry.

quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.)ST 1/20/90)
Thus, we are not saved in heaven by default.

By default, we have been restored to favor with God. (1SM 343)

quote:
He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God.
We must choose to be saved, not choose to be lost.

The light shining from the cross is drawing all to Christ. The sinner must resist that love to be lost.

quote:
The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. (DA 176)
Jesus earned the right to grant us a temporal existence, but He did not earn the right to save us in heaven against our will. By default we are lost.

Again, Jesus' earning a right to do such and such is not an issue. God can do what He pleases; He is God. The issue is that there is no other way to reconcile us to Himself aside from revealing the truth to us.

quote:
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #17005
03/01/06 04:09 AM
03/01/06 04:09 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
From ATJ's sermon on Laodecia:

quote:
Brethren, when we come with one heart and one mind to that place, we shall have no difficulty in repenting. It will not be difficult to repent and there will be no lack of repentance. That next verse will be fulfilled: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Be zealous therefore and repent."

The difficulty about our not being able to repent is that we have not confessed that what the Lord has told us is the truth. When I know that I am wretched then I know that I need something will satisfy me. And I know that nothing but the Lord can give that, and I depend upon nothing but Him to give it. And if I have not Him, why it is only wretchedness....

Now you say you see. Therefore your sin remaineth. And every moment that I do not see my nakedness and depend only and absolutely upon Him and His righteousness to cloth me, why so certain I am ruined, utter ruined, and every moment that I begin to say, "Now I know so much," no, I do not know that at all.


Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #17006
02/28/06 06:32 PM
02/28/06 06:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I agree God tries hard to win and woo us with His love and character, but I also believe this indicates we are not born automatically saved, saved in the sense that we will be in heaven regardless of our choice or character.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #17007
02/28/06 08:04 PM
02/28/06 08:04 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
We're not Universalists MM. No one is suggesting anyone at the age of accountability or older goes to heaven without choosing to do so.

Here's how Waggoner put it:

quote:
All this deliverance is "according to the will of our God and Father." The will of God is our sanctification. 1Thess.4:3. He willeth that all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2:4. And He "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will." Eph.1:11.

"What! do you mean to teach universal salvation?" We mean to teach just what the Word of God teaches,--that "the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men." Titus 2:11, R.V. God has wrought out salvation for every man, and has given it to him; but the majority spurn it, and throw it away. The Judgment will reveal the fact that full and complete salvation was given to every man, and that the lost have deliberately thrown away their birthright possession. Thus every mouth will be stopped. (The Glad Tidings)


Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #17008
03/02/06 04:17 AM
03/02/06 04:17 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, please notice that Sister White never worded it in such a confusing manner. We are saved in heaven when we choose to be born again - not before. There is nothing automatic about being saved in heaven. Sister White never implied that our temporal earthly existence equates to eternal reward in heaven.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #17009
03/02/06 04:58 AM
03/02/06 04:58 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Sister White never implied that our temporal earthly existence equates to eternal reward in heaven.
Neither did anyone else. This is a confusion in you r own mind. I have no idea why.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #17010
03/01/06 07:01 PM
03/01/06 07:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I'm glad we agree we are not born saved in heaven, that we are born lost in hell, that we are born in need of rebirth. Although, in the back of my mind, I suspect you disagree with this post.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #17011
03/01/06 07:16 PM
03/01/06 07:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Although, in the back of my mind, I suspect you disagree with this post.
Actualy, I think in the front of your mind you know this is true, which leads me to wonder why you would post this in the first place, unless it's just to be annoying.

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