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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#173798
06/01/15 03:30 AM
06/01/15 03:30 AM
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There are things people do they have no idea are sins. For example, they do not realize working or buying and selling on the Sabbath is a sin. God reveals these kinds of things to them in "manageable chunks". However, cultivated defective traits of character are different. God does not allow them to pine away wishing they were free. He offers them victory now. How can one pine away for something which has not been revealed to them as something they need?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: asygo]
#173822
06/01/15 06:34 PM
06/01/15 06:34 PM
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M: Is everything Jesus empowers them to do stained with sin and selfishness?
A) No. But what passes through dirty channels is dirty.
M) No. What do you mean by No?
A) No, Jesus does not empower us to sin or to be selfish. We don't need Him for that.
M) Dirty? What do you mean by Dirty?
A) Defiled. So, Jesus empowers people equipped with defiled channels to partake of the divine nature and to experience "righteousness and true holiness" unto His honor and glory. Yet, I hear you saying the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sin-stained and selfish because it passes through human channels. Elsewhere you have shared Jesus takes their sinful, selfish fruit and adds His righteousness thus making it acceptable to God. Where in the Bible does it portray Jesus adding His righteousness to our sinfulness and offering it to the Father?
And, where in the Bible does it say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is stained with sin and selfishness and unacceptable to the Father?
Matthew
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
John
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Romans
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ [is] acceptable to God, and approved of men.
1 Timothy
2:2 Lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
5:4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
Colossians
1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
1 Peter
2:20 Wye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.
1 John
3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#173884
06/03/15 04:45 PM
06/03/15 04:45 PM
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It's difficult for you to understand because you don't know the passage i have in mind. Here it is:
The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. {1SM 344.2}
You cling to several serious misconceptions that I have already addressed in the past. I'll just briefly address one now: Jesus cleans the dirt.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#173887
06/03/15 05:52 PM
06/03/15 05:52 PM
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Arnold, you have never shared a Bible passage. You always post 1SM 344.
Please show from the Bible that the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful, selfish, unacceptable to the Father unless purified, cleansed with the blood of Jesus.
Also, please respond to the Bible passages I posted above which clearly say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is acceptable and well pleasing to the Father.
And, please note the significance of the quote you left out:
The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. {1SM 344.2}
The fruit of abiding in Jesus lacks merit. It is not stained with sin and selfishness. Jesus "puts" or adds His meritorious blood and righteousness to our Spirit-empowered prayers, praise, and confessions. Jesus does not make sinful, selfish fruit acceptable to the Father by sugar-coating it with His blood and righteousness. Nor does He magically turn sin into righteousness. He doesn't clean up sin until it shines like righteousness. Instead, He takes our Spirit-empowered "righteousness and true holiness" and makes it meritorious by adding His blood and righteousness.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#173923
06/04/15 07:55 AM
06/04/15 07:55 AM
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You see what you did there? You used the last part of the paragraph to deny the first part. You contradict what she said by claiming that there is nothing to be cleansed and purified.
That hermeneutic is why we don't agree. We have fundamentally different approaches to inspiration. I look at it as a box of puzzle pieces to put together, while you see it as a pantry of ingredients for your culinary masterpiece.
If you can twist her clear words to suit your taste, you can certainly do the same with the more ambiguous texts of Scripture.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#173951
06/05/15 06:31 PM
06/05/15 06:31 PM
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You misread my post. I agree the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "defiled" and requires the meritorious blood and righteousness of Jesus to ascend acceptable to the Father. Where you and I disagree is the idea the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful and selfish or somehow stained with sin and selfish and for this reason it is unacceptable to the Father. There is absolutely nothing sinful or selfish about the fruit of abiding in Jesus. Exactly how and why passing through corrupt human channels makes it unacceptable to the Father is not explained. One thing is certain - Jesus does not take sin and make it acceptable to the Father.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#173952
06/05/15 06:33 PM
06/05/15 06:33 PM
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Please show from the Bible that the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful and selfish and unacceptable to the Father.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#173953
06/05/15 06:34 PM
06/05/15 06:34 PM
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PS - Please refrain from accusing me of twisting things. Please try to share your view from the Bible.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#173968
06/06/15 04:42 PM
06/06/15 04:42 PM
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You misread my post. I agree the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "defiled" and requires the meritorious blood and righteousness of Jesus to ascend acceptable to the Father. Where you and I disagree is the idea the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful and selfish or somehow stained with sin and selfish and for this reason it is unacceptable to the Father. There is absolutely nothing sinful or selfish about the fruit of abiding in Jesus. Exactly how and why passing through corrupt human channels makes it unacceptable to the Father is not explained. One thing is certain - Jesus does not take sin and make it acceptable to the Father. You misread the quote. You keep saying that all that is needed is for Jesus to ADD His merit to our good works. But you miss the fact that she said our good works must be cleansed and purified. Maybe you are thinking that you clean something by adding soap to it. But that is a misconception. The problem is not a soap deficiency. You put soap so that it sticks to the dirt and REMOVES the dirt when you rinse it. That's why you rinse it. A cleansing and purifying process means that there is some dirt to be removed. Your idea of merely adding something that is deficient is contradicted by the quote. The idea that sin can be remedied by merely adding something that smells better comes from you, not me or the quote.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#173969
06/06/15 04:47 PM
06/06/15 04:47 PM
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SDA
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Please show from the Bible that the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful and selfish and unacceptable to the Father. Isa 64:6, Gen 15:6
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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