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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16? [Re: Alchemy] #175896
08/06/15 02:54 AM
08/06/15 02:54 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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I am a little surprised that a discussion about the "fit man" hasn't brought up more discussion about the "scapegoat", or "live goat"? We can discuss that here if you like.

Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16? [Re: Alchemy] #175930
08/08/15 03:18 PM
08/08/15 03:18 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Posts: 2,536
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I am a little surprised that a discussion about the "fit man" hasn't brought up more discussion about the "scapegoat", or "live goat"? We can discuss that here if you like.

You probably missed it but that's what we've been mostly talking about starting at page 2 'till now.

1. the live goat is not Azazel
.....*according to the Masoretic source text.
.....*according to rabbis and Jews knowledgeable of the Torah.
.....*Rabbis says Azazel is a mountain to where the fit man brought the live goat to.
.....*Azazel is mis-translated as "the scapegoat" in many English translations.


2. the ultimate responsibility of sins does NOT go on Azazel(satan).
.....*according to the laws of liability
.....*according to scriptures. One example is the book of Job. No responsibility is put on the devil. At the last chapter, it is the Lord that takes the whole responsibility of what happened to Job. " all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him" Job 42:11


Blessings
Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16? [Re: Elle] #175945
08/09/15 11:52 AM
08/09/15 11:52 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I am a little surprised that a discussion about the "fit man" hasn't brought up more discussion about the "scapegoat", or "live goat"? We can discuss that here if you like.

You probably missed it but that's what we've been mostly talking about starting at page 2 'till now.

1. the live goat is not Azazel
.....*according to the Masoretic source text.
.....*according to rabbis and Jews knowledgeable of the Torah.
.....*Rabbis says Azazel is a mountain to where the fit man brought the live goat to.
.....*Azazel is mis-translated as "the scapegoat" in many English translations.


2. the ultimate responsibility of sins does NOT go on Azazel(satan).
.....*according to the laws of liability
.....*according to scriptures. One example is the book of Job. No responsibility is put on the devil. At the last chapter, it is the Lord that takes the whole responsibility of what happened to Job. " all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him" Job 42:11


Thank you Elle, I did miss it.

I guess to start with, it is important that we understand the scapegoat is left alive. Just as in the parable in Luke 11:21-23, Jesus binds the strong man and spoils his house while he is alive.

So, the scapegoat can't atone for any sins. There isn't any shedding of blood and there isn't any remission for sins. All the sins on the scapegoat are under the condemnation of the law.

Do we understand this?

Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16? [Re: Elle] #175946
08/09/15 12:08 PM
08/09/15 12:08 PM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: elle
"Do you believe that the Lord is blaming all sins to one of His creatures -- Satan?"

Satan is the originator of sin!
....

So, the lost will be held responsible for their own sins and Satan will pay for his own sins plus those of the redeemed. Satan is to be blamed for all those sins he will suffer for. Satan is to be blamed for the suffering and murder of Jesus Christ, God's Son!



Your theory is conflicting with many scriptures. To name three main places:

1- The Lord said He created Evil : "AV Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

2- The owner of the beast (devil) is liable for all of His beast(the devil) doings: 28 And if an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished. 29 If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring, and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him. 31Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule.

3. It is true that Man and satan hold part of the responsibility for sin, however the Lord said He does not impute their trespasses unto them. AV 2C 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, [b]not imputing their trespasses unto them;[/b]

So your theory has to be adjusted to take these scriptures into account.

Regarding point #3, the Lord is ULTIMATELY responsible for all sins but that doesn't mean that there's no responsibility that man and the devil are responsible for. The Lord is going to use the law to teach us righteousness by bringing us to face the devil and our sins commited. Just because the Lord is using sins to teach us righteousness does not mean He is using our trespasses against us. He is using our trespasses for our benefit -- to teach us righteousness by giving us a chance to pay for our debt (see definition of redemption in Lev 25).

Is 26:9 "... for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."

It is thru the law and the judgment of the law that man comes to learn righteousness. The Lord is using sin to teach all of us His righteousness.

Grace does not teach us righteousness :

AV Isa 26:10 Let favour [grace]be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.


I do remember this post.

The evil God created isn't sin, but judgment! We call it evil because of the pain and suffering it causes, but, God chastises those whom He loves. And it is good for us when we go to far off the straight and narrow.

Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16? [Re: Alchemy] #175968
08/10/15 07:06 PM
08/10/15 07:06 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Quote:
Alchemy : I am a little surprised that a discussion about the "fit man" hasn't brought up more discussion about the "scapegoat", or "live goat"? We can discuss that here if you like.

Elle : You probably missed it but that's what we've been mostly talking about starting at page 2 'till now....

Alchemy : Thank you Elle, I did miss it.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

I guess to start with, it is important that we understand the scapegoat is left alive.


First of all Azazel(you call it scapegoat) is NOT the live goat. The Masoretic text, some proper translation, and the Rabbis says the live goat is sent to Azazel (the mountain).

Yes I agree with you that the live goat is left alive...to deal with Azazel(the devil).


Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Just as in the parable in Luke 11:21-23, Jesus binds the strong man and spoils his house while he is alive.


Yes, I couldn't agree more. The strong man in Luke 11-23-26 is the devil(or demons). 'Azaz from "Azazel" means "to be stout or strong". The stronger man here is Jesus. He is stronger than the devil. The house is us. The devil or demons possess us. And Jesus is the only stronger man that can come and take the devil out of our house.

However, I don't see the "stronger man" in Luke 11 is the same as the "fit man" or "ready man" thought. Both have different definitions. I see Jesus(the live goat) is the stronger man that takes cares of the devil. The "fit man" (or the Holy Spirit as reveal in the baptism of Jesus) is the one that led the Live Goat(Jesus, the stronger man) to the desert to deal with the devil(Azazel).

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
So, the scapegoat can't atone for any sins.

If you mean that "scapegoat" = Azazel; I agree Azazel cannot atone for sin.

But if you mean that the Live Goat (Jesus) = scapegoat, then your statement is lacking and isn't true.

Your statement is lacking because it takes the two works of Christ to atone for sin which is depicted by the two doves and the two goats in those atoenment and cleansing rituals.

Both are necessary. It required two animals to illustrate the two comings of Christ.

The first coming == the dead dove == the dead goat : was a "dead work" that makes us righetous. However the righteousness is not yet an actuality in our lives. However this work of Christ makes us RIGHTEOUS.

It requires the second work of Christ which is a LIVE WORK to bring about righteousness by coming into our house to cast out the devil(the lies).

The second coming == the live dove == the live goat : Just as Luke 11 illustrated, is the live goat (stronger man) comes in an deals with Azazel(the strong man). A cleansing of the temple (our house) is a result of the stronger man casting out the stron man out of the house(our body). This work is call the "sanctification Process". It is not something that happens overnight. Every lie has to be addressed one by one. This work happened before the 2nd coming to cleanse the Elects (the overcomers). And it will continue on a grand scale at Jesus second coming.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
There isn't any shedding of blood and there isn't any remission for sins. All the sins on the scapegoat are under the condemnation of the law.


In regards to the bolded section, where do you get in the Bible that
1) the sins are transfered on the "scapegoat".
2) All the sins of the "scapegoat" are "under condemnation of the law"


Blessings
Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16? [Re: Elle] #175982
08/11/15 10:51 AM
08/11/15 10:51 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Blessings Elle,

You wrote;

"In regards to the bolded section, where do you get in the Bible that
1) the sins are transfered on the "scapegoat".
2) All the sins of the "scapegoat" are "under condemnation of the law""

First of all, the scapegoat and the live goat are one in the same. If you compare Leviticus 16:10 and 16:21, clearly the scapegoat and the live goat are one in the same. Reading 16:8-10 and 16:20-22 show a clear comparison and connection between the scapegoat and the live goat.

1) Leviticus 16:20-21.
2) They must be, in v. 20 says after "he hath made an end of reconciling". Since there isn't anymore remission available, all those sins must be under the combination of the Law. The live goat is addressed in vss. 21-22.

Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16? [Re: Alchemy] #175988
08/11/15 04:38 PM
08/11/15 04:38 PM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,814
Canada
Rabbis are not inspired
The Jewish people had a lot of faulty interpretations of scripture, thus we cannot use their writings as proof.

Lev. 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for JEHOVAH, and the other lot for AZAZEL.


So one goat is for Jehovah
the other goat is for Azazel

16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the AZAZEL, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to send AZAZEL into the wilderness.

This text is pretty plain that the live goat is AZAZEL and is to sent into the wilderness (midbar)

The priest goes into the tabernacle with the blood of slain goat to cleanse the temple, the altar and worshipers of all the sins committed.

16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness

So it is the slain goat which typifies the cleansing process.

Once the cleansing process is completed there is another step -- the priest has removed sin from the tabernacle and the people but he is still carrying it, now he transfers it all (this is after the cleansing of tabernacle and people is completed) unto the AZAZEL.

16:20And when he has made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


There is a very real transfer upon the head of the AZAZEL, of all the sins which the blood of the slain goat had cleansed from the tabernacle and the people.

It's like the janitor using a cleansing solution on the people and on all the equipment needed to cleanse the people, and when he has made everything sparkling clean, comes out with to dispose of the "dirty" water, placing it on the head of the AZAZEL and sending it far out into the wilderness.
(He wasn't sent to a mountain -- it was simply far out into the wilderness)

The "fit man" is not the devil, for the "fit man" is to come back into the camp, wash his cloths and be part of the congregation.

In the fulfillment of the day of atonement we know it is an angel of God that binds Satan in the wilderness of this earth where he can meditate and view the ruin and desolation his pride produced.

Satan is the source of evil.
Of course the spiritualistic view seeks to excuse him and place the blame upon the Creator God.
That is all part of the "new age" interpretations and has been Lucifer's line all through the great controversy.

But in the end -- everyone will be clear on that point. God is the author of holiness and goodness, there is NO EVIL in Him at all.
Evil is a mystery that was developed in the mind of Lucifer. It was unknown to created beings prior to this, thus was allowed to demonstrate its full fruits, till everyone understands -- it is not God that is unfair or tyrannical, it is the mystery of iniquity that was created in Lucifer's mind and mushroomed as he imbued mankind with his spirit.




Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16? [Re: Alchemy] #175989
08/11/15 08:27 PM
08/11/15 08:27 PM
APL  Offline
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Azazel is similar to an Akkadian word meaning, "angry god".


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16? [Re: dedication] #175996
08/12/15 03:44 AM
08/12/15 03:44 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Excellent post dedication.

Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16? [Re: dedication] #176425
08/30/15 12:55 AM
08/30/15 12:55 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
dedication mentioned the Lord's goat and I believe we should cover this goat in more detail if possible.

The bullock was sacrificed first and then the Lord's goat. I believe the blood of the Lord's goat is the fullers soap in Malachi 3:2. This blood is what actually cleanses the sanctuary and the people of God. I believe it is also that which washes our memories so that we can't remember our sins any longer. For that matter, I don't believe the ungodly will be able to remember our sins any longer. (GC 483.1 to 485.1)

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