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The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" #177844
11/08/15 01:15 AM
11/08/15 01:15 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Below is the first part of The Shaking vision from Early Writings. I've wondered for years what she means when she says this group of devout praying saints got "the victory" at the bottom part of the quote. It has to do with overcoming in some special sense but I was always mystified about the exact meaning and context. An idea came to me yesterday that I want to put forward for the forum to critique, but first, does any one have any thoughts?
Quote:
The Shaking


I saw some, with strong faith and agonizing cries, pleading with God. Their countenances were pale and marked with deep anxiety, expressive of their internal struggle. Firmness and great earnestness was expressed in their countenances; large drops of perspiration fell from their foreheads. Now and then their faces would light up with the marks of God's approbation, and again the same solemn, earnest, anxious look would settle upon them. {EW 269.1}
Evil angels crowded around, pressing darkness upon them to shut out Jesus from their view, that their eyes might be drawn to the darkness that surrounded them, and thus they be led to distrust God and murmur against Him. Their only safety was in keeping their eyes directed upward. Angels of God had charge over His people, and as the poisonous atmosphere of evil angels was pressed around these anxious ones, the heavenly angels were continually wafting their wings over them to scatter the thick darkness. {EW 269.2}

As the praying ones continued their earnest cries, at times a ray of light from Jesus came to them, to encourage their hearts and light up their countenances. Some, I saw, did not participate in this work of agonizing and pleading. They seemed indifferent and careless. They were not resisting the darkness around them, and it shut them in like a thick cloud. The angels of God left these and went to the aid of the earnest, praying ones. I saw angels of God hasten to the assistance of all who were struggling with all their power to resist the evil angels and trying to help themselves by calling upon God with perseverance. But His angels left those who made no effort to help themselves, and I lost sight of them. {EW 270.1}

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people. {EW 270.2}
I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified. {EW 270.3}

Said the angel, "List ye!" Soon I heard a voice like many musical instruments all sounding in perfect strains, sweet and harmonious. It surpassed any music I had ever heard, seeming to be full of mercy, compassion, and elevating, holy joy. It thrilled through my whole being. Said the angel, "Look ye!" My attention was then turned to the company I had seen, who were mightily shaken. I was shown those whom I had before seen weeping and praying in agony of spirit. The company of guardian angels around them had been doubled, and they were clothed with an armor from their head to their feet. They moved in exact order, like a company of soldiers. Their countenances expressed the severe conflict which they had endured, the agonizing struggle they had passed through. Yet their features, marked with severe internal anguish, now shone with the light and glory of heaven. They had obtained the victory, and it called forth from them the deepest gratitude and holy, sacred joy. {EW 270.4}

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177846
11/08/15 02:28 AM
11/08/15 02:28 AM
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Continuing with the last part of the quote
Quote:
The numbers of this company had lessened. Some had been shaken out and left by the way. The careless and indifferent, who did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to perseveringly plead and agonize for it, did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness, and their places were immediately filled by others taking hold of the truth and coming into the ranks. Evil angels still pressed around them, but could have no power over them. {EW 271.1}
I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth with great power. It had effect. Many had been bound; some wives by their husbands, and some children by their parents. The honest who had been prevented from hearing the truth now eagerly laid hold upon it. All fear of their relatives was gone, and the truth alone was exalted to them. They had been hungering and thirsting for truth; it was dearer and more precious than life. I asked what had made this great change. An angel answered, "It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel."

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177847
11/08/15 02:58 AM
11/08/15 02:58 AM
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My understanding --

The first time I read this passage, many years ago, I thought it described the time of trouble. But on closer investigation this happens BEFORE the time of trouble. It takes place before the latter rain is poured out.

Sequence

1. God's people are agonizing in prayer. WHY?

darkness, -- evil angels -- poisonous atmosphere of evil was pressing in all around them.

This doesn't sound like persecution but rather it's God's people sensing the degradation of society and the evil and sin all around them.

This seems to be the true meaning of the
"sighing and crying of those who are sighing and crying because of the abominations done in the land. Satan and his angels are present accusing and tormenting them that they are no better and reminding them of their own sins. Thus they are pleading with God for forgiveness and for God to spare his people.

Something is also shaping up in the world that is challenging them -- worldly solutions that sound good, yet obvious to them it is the wrong solutions.

2. Their only safety was in keeping their eyes on Christ.

Without Christ they would loose hope. Society, and even people in the church, and possibly in their very homes, were dragging them down. This isn't persecution yet, but psychological and societal pressures. Pressures to conform and "not rock the boat" etc. and "don't be so fanatical". Their only hope was to look to Christ, and grasp the assurance of forgiveness of their confessed sins, and strength to rise above the prevailing evil.

3. The straight testimony to the Laodiceans

That testimony is a warning not to feel comfortable simply because one has the "riches of truth" by being a member of the church, but to sense their extreme need to seek earnest repentance of sin, and to invite Christ fully into their hearts and lives, to fully and completely give their lives to Him, and depend on Him for strength and courage.

Many felt their "membership" as a Christian was good enough and resisted the call to make earnest work of being right with God.

4. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified.

God will give the earnest seekers the gold of tried faith, the eye salve of discernment between good and evil, and the robe of His righteousness.

5. Those who did not partake of the agonizing and prayer were shut in by the darkness of sin and were no longer a part of God's people.

Those who do not pray earnestly will accept the human solutions and see it as the "best way" the "easy way".

6. The latter rain falls, the Holy Spirit is poured out on the praying ones.

What is their victory?
The have gained the victory over the beast, over his image, and over his mark! All the human pressures to conform to worldly solutions, agendas, and evils, no longer has any hold on them. They have given themselves full to Christ, they are Christ's and they know He is coming soon.

All fear of their relatives and peers was gone, and the truth alone was exalted by them.

7. clothed with the armor they speak forth the truth with great power.

The last message of mercy to the world will be preached WITH POWER by everyone Who has gained the victory and received the holy Spirit.

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: dedication] #177858
11/08/15 11:33 AM
11/08/15 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
What is their victory?
The have gained the victory over the beast, over his image, and over his mark! All the human pressures to conform to worldly solutions, agendas, and evils, no longer has any hold on them. They have given themselves full to Christ, they are Christ's and they know He is coming soon.

Quote:
All fear of their relatives and peers was gone, and the truth alone was exalted by them.


7. clothed with the armor they speak forth the truth with great power.

The last message of mercy to the world will be preached WITH POWER by everyone Who has gained the victory and received the holy Spirit.


This is it exactly, Dedication. The victory is the victory over the beast his image and his mark. Some more evidence of this in the next post.

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177860
11/08/15 06:17 PM
11/08/15 06:17 PM
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Here is one text that agrees with the Shaking Vision sequence - 1st the victory, then the most enraptured song of praise and thanksgiving from those who've been given the victory, then the latter rain and finally the plagues.
Quote:
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:


The sequence in this scripture is the same but omits a direct reference to the latter rain. But there's more . . .

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177876
11/09/15 12:01 AM
11/09/15 12:01 AM
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Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [The Shaking]
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, [the victory – see verses 10 and 11 also] who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, [This will happen fast] and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song [again, the song of victory. We place this after the close of probation or in the New Earth but notice where John is shown it – just before the three angel's message because this victory empowers the church with the latter rain to give those messages.] before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Quote:
And at the commencement of the time of trouble, [That is, the 'little time of trouble'.] we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully.

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177877
11/09/15 12:14 AM
11/09/15 12:14 AM
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My conclusion is that the latter rain comes with a high price tag. But as the saints look with wonder at the loveliness of their new home, they'll all confess "heaven is cheap enough!".

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177881
11/09/15 10:32 AM
11/09/15 10:32 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Below is the first part of The Shaking vision from Early Writings. I've wondered for years what she means when she says this group of devout praying saints got "the victory" at the bottom part of the quote. It has to do with overcoming in some special sense but I was always mystified about the exact meaning and context. An idea came to me yesterday that I want to put forward for the forum to critique, but first, does any one have any thoughts?
Quote:
The Shaking


I saw some, with strong faith and agonizing cries, pleading with God. Their countenances were pale and marked with deep anxiety, expressive of their internal struggle. Firmness and great earnestness was expressed in their countenances; large drops of perspiration fell from their foreheads. Now and then their faces would light up with the marks of God's approbation, and again the same solemn, earnest, anxious look would settle upon them. {EW 269.1}
Evil angels crowded around, pressing darkness upon them to shut out Jesus from their view, that their eyes might be drawn to the darkness that surrounded them, and thus they be led to distrust God and murmur against Him. Their only safety was in keeping their eyes directed upward. Angels of God had charge over His people, and as the poisonous atmosphere of evil angels was pressed around these anxious ones, the heavenly angels were continually wafting their wings over them to scatter the thick darkness. {EW 269.2}

As the praying ones continued their earnest cries, at times a ray of light from Jesus came to them, to encourage their hearts and light up their countenances. Some, I saw, did not participate in this work of agonizing and pleading. They seemed indifferent and careless. They were not resisting the darkness around them, and it shut them in like a thick cloud. The angels of God left these and went to the aid of the earnest, praying ones. I saw angels of God hasten to the assistance of all who were struggling with all their power to resist the evil angels and trying to help themselves by calling upon God with perseverance. But His angels left those who made no effort to help themselves, and I lost sight of them. {EW 270.1}

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people. {EW 270.2}
I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified. {EW 270.3}

Said the angel, "List ye!" Soon I heard a voice like many musical instruments all sounding in perfect strains, sweet and harmonious. It surpassed any music I had ever heard, seeming to be full of mercy, compassion, and elevating, holy joy. It thrilled through my whole being. Said the angel, "Look ye!" My attention was then turned to the company I had seen, who were mightily shaken. I was shown those whom I had before seen weeping and praying in agony of spirit. The company of guardian angels around them had been doubled, and they were clothed with an armor from their head to their feet. They moved in exact order, like a company of soldiers. Their countenances expressed the severe conflict which they had endured, the agonizing struggle they had passed through. Yet their features, marked with severe internal anguish, now shone with the light and glory of heaven. They had obtained the victory, and it called forth from them the deepest gratitude and holy, sacred joy. {EW 270.4}


Simply at this point they are sealed and there is no more any point to allowing them to fall or be tempted, as Christ now comes to redeem them. Thus the victory....

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Rick H] #177884
11/09/15 04:41 PM
11/09/15 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rick H
Simply at this point they are sealed and there is no more any point to allowing them to fall or be tempted, as Christ now comes to redeem them. Thus the victory....


Hey Pastor Rick. Thanks for your comment. I agree the saints who receive the latter rain in Ellen White's quote "at the beginning of the (little) time of trouble" are sealed. But does sealing equate to being beyond falling? Here's another scripture that I think applies to the same event:

Quote:
Dan 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

My view of verse 35 above is that during the latter rain some even of those who are wise, who've received it will fall away. It's similar to the Millerite Movement. Some received the first angel's message but not the second and some the second but not the third. Somewhere Ellen White states that there will be a dual cleansing of the church like the dual cleansing of the temple by Christ - once at the start of his ministry and once at the close. If you put that statement with her vision it suggests to me that the shaking she speaks of in EW is the first of the two. But what do you think Pastor?

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177907
11/10/15 04:37 AM
11/10/15 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
My conclusion is that the latter rain comes with a high price tag. But as the saints look with wonder at the loveliness of their new home, they'll all confess "heaven is cheap enough!".


"Our Saviour claims all there is of us; ... Our only safety is to surrender our all to Him and to be constantly growing in grace and in the knowledge of the truth. {SL 95.1}

" We must sacrifice every idol and fully obey the first four commandments. Matthew 22:37, 38: "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment." The first four commandments allow no separation of the affections from God. Nor is anything allowed to divide, or share, our supreme delight in Him. Whatever divides the affections, and takes away from the soul supreme love to God, assumes the form of an idol. Our carnal hearts would cling to our idols and seek to carry them along; but we cannot advance until we put them away, for they separate us from God... The people of God may safely trust in Him alone and without fear press on in the way of obedience. {1T 289.2}

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177909
11/10/15 04:52 AM
11/10/15 04:52 AM
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Sealed or in the process of being sealed?

According to Paul's writings the Holy Spirit is sealing us == a process (2 Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13) yet he states it in a manner that says, when we are in the sealing process, we are sealed.
"ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

However during the sealing process, it is still possible to turn our backs on the Holy Spirit, and become "unsealed".

The latter rain is poured out on those who whole heartedly accept the Holy Spirit's sealing work. Yet, the final irrevocable seal (he that is righteous let him be righteouse still, he that is filthy let him be filthy still...) is not "locked in" irreversible until probation closes, and Christ leaves the sanctuary, and that takes place AFTER the loud cry, not before.

So I don't think they have that irreversible seal yet in the sequence of the vision.

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177910
11/10/15 05:40 AM
11/10/15 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Simply at this point they are sealed and there is no more any point to allowing them to fall or be tempted, as Christ now comes to redeem them. Thus the victory....


Hey Pastor Rick. Thanks for your comment. I agree the saints who receive the latter rain in Ellen White's quote "at the beginning of the (little) time of trouble" are sealed. But does sealing equate to being beyond falling? Here's another scripture that I think applies to the same event:

Quote:
Dan 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

My view of verse 35 above is that during the latter rain some even of those who are wise, who've received it will fall away. It's similar to the Millerite Movement. Some received the first angel's message but not the second and some the second but not the third. Somewhere Ellen White states that there will be a dual cleansing of the church like the dual cleansing of the temple by Christ - once at the start of his ministry and once at the close. If you put that statement with her vision it suggests to me that the shaking she speaks of in EW is the first of the two. But what do you think Pastor?


Blessings Mark,

I have been blessed by much of what you've said. But, the Daniel 11 quote seems to be the wrong time frame for the Shaking vision of Ellen White. Daniel 11:35 mentions the "time of the end" as future. We know 11:40 marks the actual "time of the end".

Whereas as the Shaking definitely takes place after the time of the end. The Shaking still hasn't taken place in its fullness.

I also agree with Rick that the sealing had taken place, but, that the National Sunday Law played a part in that sealing and that they won't be able to fall anymore. Or, what does being sealed mean?

After their being sealed they are those who deliver the Loud Cry.

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177915
11/10/15 09:31 AM
11/10/15 09:31 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Simply at this point they are sealed and there is no more any point to allowing them to fall or be tempted, as Christ now comes to redeem them. Thus the victory....


Hey Pastor Rick. Thanks for your comment. I agree the saints who receive the latter rain in Ellen White's quote "at the beginning of the (little) time of trouble" are sealed. But does sealing equate to being beyond falling? Here's another scripture that I think applies to the same event:

Quote:
Dan 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

My view of verse 35 above is that during the latter rain some even of those who are wise, who've received it will fall away. It's similar to the Millerite Movement. Some received the first angel's message but not the second and some the second but not the third. Somewhere Ellen White states that there will be a dual cleansing of the church like the dual cleansing of the temple by Christ - once at the start of his ministry and once at the close. If you put that statement with her vision it suggests to me that the shaking she speaks of in EW is the first of the two. But what do you think Pastor?
Yes, once they are sealed there is no point in allowing Satan to take them, otherwise what is the point in sealing them. Once they are sealed, nothing can take them from God even if they die during the end time which will be beyond what we can imagine. They will await the resurrection or the lifting up into the clouds when Christ appears...(As for me, I am just a humble servant that preaches as I am asked, lay pastor at best)

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: dedication] #177916
11/10/15 09:32 AM
11/10/15 09:32 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
Sealed or in the process of being sealed?

According to Paul's writings the Holy Spirit is sealing us == a process (2 Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13) yet he states it in a manner that says, when we are in the sealing process, we are sealed.
"ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

However during the sealing process, it is still possible to turn our backs on the Holy Spirit, and become "unsealed".

The latter rain is poured out on those who whole heartedly accept the Holy Spirit's sealing work. Yet, the final irrevocable seal (he that is righteous let him be righteouse still, he that is filthy let him be filthy still...) is not "locked in" irreversible until probation closes, and Christ leaves the sanctuary, and that takes place AFTER the loud cry, not before.

So I don't think they have that irreversible seal yet in the sequence of the vision.

During the process, maybe, but not once its done.

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #177993
11/12/15 10:56 AM
11/12/15 10:56 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Posts: 2,264
Asia
So, what do we believe about these very end times?

Once God's people are sealed, can still fall into sin?

About how long will it be from the National Sunday Law in the USA to the Second Coming of Jesus?

Even though we can't realize when Probation closes, what are some of the earliest indications we should notice that Probation has in fact closed?

What do you all believe?

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #178094
11/15/15 11:20 AM
11/15/15 11:20 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline
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I'm a little confused about the sealing. In some ways, it sounds like a corporate event: the entire Church is finally sealed simultaneously, as one body. However, if I understand the judgement taking place right now in the Most Holy; it begins with the Church and the case of each person is decided individually.

When an individual's case is decided, their eternal destiny is finally determined.
After this occurs each person is irrevocably either lost or saved.
Is this the sealing? If it is, the sealing is not a corporate event, but a gradual process completed only when each individual case is decided.

Therefore, could it be said that Probation is 50% or 75%, as the case may be, closed?


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Charity] #199069
09/15/25 07:31 PM
09/15/25 07:31 PM
dedication  Offline
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Interesting questions.
I have never understood the sealing as a "corporate" event.
When I read "God's people will be sealed" I understand it as individual sealing of the people who have fully chosen to belong to Christ.
These are individuals who are settled into the truth as it is in Jesus, so they cannot be moved,

To me, any idea that God removes the power of choice from His people is a wrong view of the sealing. The choice is always given to each individual. However, when a person is settled into the truth as it is in Jesus and are fully committed, they will be upheld by the Holy Spirit, to stand firmly for Him.

I don't believe in two dates for probation to close -- one for the church, another for the world.
When Christ leaves the sanctuary, that's when probation closes and there is no more opportunity to change. However, for those who have had much light (church members) but have not taken it seriously preferring to have one foot in the world and the other in the church, they will make their final irrevocable choice before the actual close of probation. In that sense, for them probation has closed early.
That's what the shaking is all about -- church members will be in a position where they have to make their final choice. Many will be shaken out, and it will be next to impossible to turn back, even though probation has not yet officially closed. Hebrews 6:4-6 would apply to them. They have closed their own probation.

Whereas many of those who have not known the truth but have followed Christ and what they know of truth with sincere hearts will respond and fully commit themselves to Christ in the last minutes of probation.

The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups.
Quote
God has not revealed to us the time when this message will close or when probation will have an end. Those things that are revealed we shall accept for ourselves and for our children, but let us not seek to know that which has been kept secret in the councils of the Almighty. . . . {LDE 227.1}
Letters have come to me asking me if I have any special light as to the time when probation will close, and I answer that I have only this message to bear, that it is now time to work while the day lasts, for the night cometh in which no man can work.--1SM 191 (1894).

Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: ProdigalOne] #199106
09/27/25 08:11 PM
09/27/25 08:11 PM
Rick H  Offline
Group: Admin Team
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Posts: 3,647
Florida, USA
Originally Posted by ProdigalOne
I'm a little confused about the sealing. In some ways, it sounds like a corporate event: the entire Church is finally sealed simultaneously, as one body. However, if I understand the judgement taking place right now in the Most Holy; it begins with the Church and the case of each person is decided individually.

When an individual's case is decided, their eternal destiny is finally determined.
After this occurs each person is irrevocably either lost or saved.
Is this the sealing? If it is, the sealing is not a corporate event, but a gradual process completed only when each individual case is decided.

Therefore, could it be said that Probation is 50% or 75%, as the case may be, closed?
We are sealed one by one, as Gods Word says, 'In whom ye also trusted', that is not corporate....

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Here is a video from Walter Veith where he lays out the shaking ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGiwifvcdFA

Last edited by Rick H; 09/27/25 08:45 PM.
Re: The Shaking Vision - What's "The Victory" [Re: Alchemy] #199162
10/27/25 05:17 PM
10/27/25 05:17 PM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted by Alchemy
So, what do we believe about these very end times?
Even though we can't realize when Probation closes, what are some of the earliest indications we should notice that Probation has in fact closed?
What do you all believe?
When the death decree is universally agreed upon, God's people will know probation has closed.

Quote
The decree will go forth that they must disregard the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and honor the first day, or lose their lives...When this time of trouble comes, every case is decided; there is no longer probation, no longer mercy for the impenitent....The decree has been passed by the highest earthly authority that they shall worship the beast and receive his mark under pain of persecution and death. {Maranatha 269.5}


However, the close of probation will not be anticipated by all. They've heard it all so many times.
" They became weary of waiting and watching. They had been disappointed in their expectations before as they had heard people proclaiming the end was at hand for many years, whenever a crises loomed, and things had always returned to relative normal conditions again, and that might be again. They concluded there was time enough yet to arouse later. For now they would be sure and not lose the opportunity of securing an earthly treasure. It would be safe, they reason, to get all of this world they could.
So they ignore the signs, compromise somewhat to accommodate their earthly pursuit, and while they bury themselves in their worldly goals, the work closed in the heavenly sanctuary, and they were unprepared." (Adapted from "Testimonies for the Church" page 15)

Could this happen? Could people who know the end time signs reason them away when they start to take place? Could Sunday laws be enacted all around us, and could we dismiss them because those laws, though highly inconvenient, don't directly force us to dishonor the fourth commandment Sabbath yet?
Once "the degree goes forth that they must disregard the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and honor the first day, or lose their lives" it will be too late.

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