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The Three Woes, Final Three Trumpets #179563
02/29/16 10:43 AM
02/29/16 10:43 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Heidi Heiks recently released his study on the fifth trumpet. What follows are a few of his introductory comments. Notice the quote from Ellen White placing the woes, all three of them, in the future in the context of the final warning messages. Besides David Gates, Heiks is the only main-line author or minister that I'm aware of who has seen the light on this. Heiks states:


The fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpets of Revelation 9 and 11, or the three woes of Revelation 8: 13., are both units, both a continuation and an expansion of three successive events that bring the great controversy to its close. The fifth trumpet reveals what initiates the woes soon to befall "the inhabiters of the earth." Rev. 8: 13.
Quote:

Those who have been self-indulgent and ready to yield to pride and fashion and display, will sneer at the conscientious, truth-loving, God-fearing people, and will, in this work, sneer at the God of heaven Himself. The Bible is disregarded, the wisdom of men exalted, and Satan and the man of sin worshiped by the wisdom of this age, while the angel is flying through the midst of heaven crying 'Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth.' (Revelation 8: 13).

I have been shown that the hand of the Lord is stretched out already to punish those who will become monuments of divine displeasure and holy vengeance, for the day of recompense has come when men who exalted the man of sin in the place of Jehovah in worshiping an idol sabbath in the place of the Sabbath of the Lord Jehovah will find it a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, for he is a consuming fire.


Ellen White obviously places the three woes of Revelation as sounding post-1844. We have assumed, and even so stated, that the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy are silent on the signal event that sets in motion the visible, tangible event to be witnessed by all of humanity simultaneously-a still-future event that commences the official march to battle by the confederated forces of evil-to the battle of Armageddon. This event will render the word atheism a bygone term in the thoughts of humanity; every living human will be mindful of God. H Heiks The Three Woes of Revelation January 2016

Re: The Three Woes, Final Three Trumpets [Re: Charity] #179565
02/29/16 12:15 PM
02/29/16 12:15 PM
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Heiks' main points in his paper are 1) the fifth woe is the "overwhelming surprise" Ellen White speaks of, 2) this surprise is the removal of God's protecting hand so that the judgments of God fall on the wicked nations of the earth in quick succession. Heiks quotes Ellen White:
Quote:
It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would-He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same.Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. GC 589.


Heiks is fulfilling a good pastoral role in drawing our attention to the great surprise and I hope that his message and warning are taken to heart. But he may be overlooking some things.

I've pondered and poured over Heiks study for the last week or two and then yesterday sent him this note:
Quote:
Morning! I'm still studying your paper and so I thought I'd bounce this off you. What if the "overwhelming surprise" starts with the first trumpet rather than the fifth? Then the scenario would go something like this: Trumpets one to four grab the world's attention that God's wrath against sin is starting to fall. This is the catalyst for a false religious revival and start of the suspension of religious liberty. Because of the persecution of God's people that result from the first four trumpets God sounds the fifth trumpet to show the difference between those with the seal who are being persecuted and their persecutors. The fifth trumpet/woe only falls on the persecutors and doesn't kill them but causes intense torment to the point that they wish to die. They are not permitted to commit suicide. Many of them try but God prevents them, forcing them to endure the torment. . . There is no peace for the wicked at this time.

Re: The Three Woes, Final Three Trumpets [Re: Charity] #179566
02/29/16 12:38 PM
02/29/16 12:38 PM
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By the way, the reason I'm putting this dialogue here between Heiks and me is to get your input.

Continuing, yesterday Heiks responded to my note saying that the Lord's ministry in the Holiest starts at the third woe and that the first four trumpets occur before 1844 while Christ was in the Holy Place. I've drafted a reply (below) but before sending it I thought I'd share it here for input.

My draft reply:
Quote:
Heidi, we agree that Rev 9:13 describes the anti-typical cleansing of the golden altar in heaven on the Day of Atonement. If that's so, then at some point before Christ has entered the Holiest and sprinkled the blood on the mercy seat because the cleansing of the mercy seat and the Holiest happens before the golden altar is cleansed. Lev 16:14, 15, 17 and 18. So where is the cleansing of the mercy seat and Holiest during the trumpets? Is it during the fifth or is it during the first four?

Here's some scripture pointing to the first four. 1) By the time of the fifth trumpet God's people are sealed because the torment of the fifth trumpet is on the unsealed. The sealing happens before the fifth. 2) The cleansing of the mercy seat and the Holiest and the sealing of God's people are the same event. What Ellen White saw in Rev 8 was the Holy Place, yes, but it was the Holy Place on the anti-typical Day of Atonement. 3) At the start of the judgment of the living, Christ as High Priest takes the golden censor and then, with much incense He goes into the Holiest and as He does, the Holy Spirit is poured out and we are judged and sealed by the truth of Christ our Righteousness and the trumpets begin to sound. 4) The only day of the year that the High Priest had to take “much incense” was the Day of Atonement because on this day it was essential to cover the entire mercy seat by the cloud of the incense of Christ's righteousness, the only merit that preserved Israel from the consuming glory of the shekinah as the High Priest made the final atonement.

The first four trumpets are when the shaking described in Early Writings occurs and we find out who the wise and foolish virgins are. By the time of the fifth trumpet the foolish find themselves among the unsealed. The fifth trumpet is a woe: It's the shut door for the unwise virgins and this, I think, relates directly to the torment. That is, the unwise virgins see that they are unsealed and are tormented knowing that they are lost.

Like in the sufferings of Christ, there is a physical side but there is a deeper spiritual side. Christ's physical pain was intense but the mental agony of being eternally separated from God far outweighed His physical suffering. This is the same for the unsealed during the fifth trumpet. People will endure almost any physical pain if they have hope for the future but when hope is gone they take their lives in suicide not primarily to escape physical pain, but because of mental torment - hopelessness and despair. It's an early hell for the unwise virgins, the first of the shut doors. They are unwitting victims of the Destroyer, Abaddon in Hebrew and Apollyon in Greek, and join him alive for five months in the abyss. They are a living warning to those who still haven't sealed their destinies in the final two woes, the final two shut doors.

Re: The Three Woes, Final Three Trumpets [Re: Charity] #179594
03/01/16 06:07 PM
03/01/16 06:07 PM
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Hi Mark,

I had been told that the 3 Woes were the 3 Angel's messages. Took for fact and put it in the margin of my Bible with a big ? mark beside it.

When I posted a comment re Pope Benedict about a week ago on this forum, the FACTS jumped out and I discovered the meaning of the 3 WOES.

Matthew 23:23
Daniel 4,5,6
Revelation 14 & 18

In fact the Lord awoke me @ 12:40 AM this morning to study the 3-woes before I learned that you had posted your note above.

By God's grace, I was fully awake at 2:40 and studying by 3 AM.

Added a chapter explaining the 3 woes in my book that will be released on the Ides of March 2016.

I recommend that you put it on your reading list.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The Three Woes, Final Three Trumpets [Re: His child] #179597
03/01/16 11:04 PM
03/01/16 11:04 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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So you agree with Heiks that the first four trumpets have sounded already? before 1844? The first and second angels messages were historically given between 1842 and 1844 but I think you're saying they especially apply to the future when the three woes sound, is that right?

Re: The Three Woes, Final Three Trumpets [Re: Charity] #179600
03/02/16 06:15 AM
03/02/16 06:15 AM
dedication  Online Content

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I believe all six trumpets have already sounded.
We are in the seventh trumpet.
"the Lord's ministry in the Holiest starts at the third woe "



Quote:
The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.” [Revelation 11:19.] The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,” this apartment was opened only upon the great day of atonement, for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the ark of his testament was seen, points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, in 1844, as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. GC 433

Re: The Three Woes, Final Three Trumpets [Re: Charity] #179602
03/02/16 11:08 AM
03/02/16 11:08 AM
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Dedication, what I'm going to say isn't a personal thrust. Please don't take it that way. Your answer is typical of the self-imposed blinders and prejudice that have kept God's people wandering in the wilderness for the past 171 plus years. It's been repeatedly shown that Ellen White re-applies the trumpets and woes to the near future. This is present truth but generally the church, like you, is in denial. It's easier and more agreeable to stay in our comfort zones with all of the prophecies figured out than to admit that her statements simply don't agree with our pre-figured notions. Even men like Colin Standish and Eugene Prewitt who I highly respect as bible scholars are prone to do it. In the case of these men they have only the best motives. With them it's not spiritual laziness like with most of us. In their cases it is blind prejudice. I'm glad to say that some of them I think are seeing the light that large portions of the end-time prophecies that we have mistakenly relegated to the past have their most essential fulfillment in the future.

What we're doing here in discussing these things is more than trying to see into the future. The far more important purpose of prophecy is that it is a revelation of the character of God, a Revelation of Jesus Christ. So if we blindly put, for example, the trumpets in the past, the more essential element that we miss is not so much that we stand to be caught unprepared when they burst on us as a overwhelming surprise, but that we are blindly rejecting the character forming truths of how God is about to act in the closing scenes of sacred history. We are repeating the history of the Jews who first rejected essential Old Testament prophetic statements about the Messiah and then sealed their rejection when He appeared. Notice - they first rejected the prophecies before they rejected the Person.

Re: The Three Woes, Final Three Trumpets [Re: Charity] #179616
03/03/16 07:33 PM
03/03/16 07:33 PM
dedication  Online Content

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So are you saying our church was built on "self-imposed blinders and prejudice"?

I don't think so.
Many years ago, back in the 1970's I dabbled in alternate interpretations of Revelation. It seemed more relevant and interesting, and opened a veritable sandbox of speculation to play in as to what might happen in the future. Some of it even seemed to support the heavenly sanctuary better. But I now fully realize it was NOT sound doctrine.

In the 1980's we were hit rather hard with an assault on core Adventist beliefs when Fordism captured the understanding of some of our relatives and took them right out of the church. They were pretty persuasive in trying to get us out of the "self-imposed blinders and prejudice" of the Adventist church.

That's when I and my husband really got serious about studying the Bible and the prophecies "to see if these things were so".

Yes, it meant reading the BIBLE, and I read it like never before seeking the whole picture, first, before narrow focusing on details. It was quite amazing. Previously we had read a chapter here or there, verses here or there.
The Fordites did their best to "remove our Adventist blinders" by giving us Bible studies that focused on certain Bible verses, drew conclusions from those selected texts and then interpreted the rest of the Bible based on those conclusions -- while accusing us of doing the same.

So I read EVERYTHING to get the whole picture.
The picture that emerged was amazing.

What I found time and time again was how important the historicist interpretation was in finding the "golden thread" of truth that ran from Genesis to Revelation.
It all came together.

Our pioneers were on the right track. No, I don't agree with everything they wrote, they made mistakes, and took a few side trips, there is always room for further and deeper study. BUT they were on the right track.

They, by the grace of God, built a solid foundation of truth from scripture. Our church was born as a historicist movement, and that historicist movement includes the rise, purpose and message of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Time and time again, I found the undermining of our prophetic understanding UNDERMINED everything we believe ABOUT CHRIST and His work of salvation. Even when they claimed to be supporting it, they pulled out the foundation supporting it.

What has happened now in all the "new light" throwing out the historicist interpretation (everyone with a different "newlight" interpretation) is KEEPING the church in the wilderness.
The absolute chaos that is floating around in the Adventist church now concerning the prophecies is DESTROYING the church, not moving it forward.

As far as rejecting the prophecies, it's BECAUSE the Israelites had lost sight of the foundational prophecies originally given to them (taught them through the sanctuary) that they rejected the Messiah.
Is that what is happening to the Adventist church today?
They are rejecting the foundational historicist basis of prophecy and adopting the Jesuit inspired futuristic interpretation. Where will that lead? It will lead somewhere, but where?

As far as agreeing with EGW.

One must agree with ALL her references, if they wish to use her writings at all.

She says in plain English, in words that cannot be missed, that the scene in the seventh trumpet began in 1844.

I quoted that reference in my last post.

She also said the time period mentioned in the sixth trumpet was fulfilled (ended) in 1840.
“In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest” (GC 334).
Notice that she says a "remarkable fulfillment of prophecy", not a fulfillment of Josiah Litch's prediction.

She writes much on what took place at the end of the sixth trumpet and the beginning of the seventh trumpet.

But all that is ignored, and their place are some quotes where she mentions "trumpets" or "woes" without any clear reference to the seven trumpets or to Revelation 8-11 and then these are cited in an attempt to destroy the foundational historicist interpretation.



Originally Posted By: EGW

In history and prophecy the Word of God portrays the long continued conflict between truth and error. That conflict is yet in progress. Those things which have been, will be repeated. Old controversies will be revived, and new theories will be continually arising. But God's people, who in their belief and fulfillment of prophecy have acted a part in the proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages, know where they stand. They have an experience that is more precious than fine gold. They are to stand firm as a rock, holding the beginning of their confidence steadfast unto the end. {2SM 109.2}

Past history will be repeated; old controversies will arouse to new life, and peril will beset God's people on every side.


History (not prophecy) will be repeated, the old controversies will arouse to new life.

The historicist interpretation tells us what those "old controversies" are. (they are described in the first half of Revelation)
Do we know what those "old controversies" that will be aroused to new life are? (they are aroused to new life in the second half of Revelation)

Tucked in between the "controversies" are scenes of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary.

Thus we are given a view of BOTH sides of the great controversy.



Re: The Three Woes, Final Three Trumpets [Re: dedication] #179617
03/03/16 09:55 PM
03/03/16 09:55 PM
dedication  Online Content

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OK, I found Hieks paper at
THE SOURCE

It's 15 pages long so it's "workable".

Page One:
He quotes two paragraphs from EGW from {1888 485}
Where she writes
Quote:
People are "self-indulgent and ready to yield to pride and fashion and display, will sneer at the conscientious, truth-loving, God-fearing people...Satan and the man of sin worshiped by the wisdom of this age, while the angel is flying through the midst of heaven crying "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth." (Revelation 8:13). {1888 485.1}
I have been shown that the hand of the Lord is stretched out already to punish....


Because she says that angel is flying crying woe, woe, woe, he deduces the conclusion that:
"Ellen White obviously places the three woes of Revelation as sounding post-1844"

But is it "obvious"?
Or is it jumping to unfounded conclusions?
No, his conclusion is not obvious.
The only thing obvious is that Heiks is making EGW contradict herself with what she wrote in GC 433

EGW is NOT contradicting herself.

Put together with the statement I quoted earlier we can understand the role of historicism in her statement."

"Those things which have been, will be repeated. Old controversies will be revived...."

The historicist interpretation which puts six of those trumpets in the past (looking at it from our time) tells us what those "old controversies" that raged during the Christian era, are.


Now I agree with most of what Heik's says on page two --
The Sunday laws will come about because of a great crises, etc. etc.

But why would this invalidate the historicist interpretation of scripture? We just need to look at the historical woes, couple it with Daniel 11, and we can get a pretty good idea how the old controversies will facilitate the rise of papal tyranny.

In fact it's already in the making.

The king of the south (muslim armies) are once again pushing mightily against the king of the North (the Christian confederacy with the papacy assuming leadership). It's the awakening of past conflicts, but this time the king of the north (Christian confederation under papal leadership) will vault itself into control of the world.

The Muslims, like locusts are being spread by the millions into all the Christian countries, (interesting that most are NOT the persecuted Christians from Syria, but young Moslems from various Moslem countries)

There is going to be an "overwhelming surprise".
The trumpets are war -- punishment on a people who have rejected the God of truth who alone can protect them from evil.

The United States has already set everything in place for this "overwhelming surprise" all they need is the crises, and martial law will be declared and the constitution will be set aside. With all the Muslims in the land, (not all are radicles there are many who have come for peace) but there are also a good number who did not come in peace.

Daniel 11, (as well as Revelation 13) makes it clear however, that it is NOT the moslems that are the real problem in the end. The king of the North (the Christian confederation) comes like a whirl wind (talk of overwhelming surprise) with a huge military force and over-runs the king of the south. The king of the south only created the chaos upon which the papacy rises to absolute power, in the world and especially in the USA which will be his principle enforcer. The papacy will be acclaimed as the "savior" leading people back to God, complete with mandatory Sunday laws, and the God fearing remnant will be classified as part of the terroris and heavily persecuted.


Old controversies will be given new life.

The angel crying woe, woe, woe, upon the people, is not declaring the fifth, sixth and seventh trumpet is about to begin, but calling us to REMEMBER what was and not sit back in spiritual apathy, what was will be revived.



Re: The Three Woes, Final Three Trumpets [Re: dedication] #179619
03/03/16 11:57 PM
03/03/16 11:57 PM
dedication  Online Content

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OK we've covered page one and two.
Now on to the next pages where Heiks defines terms.

Originally Posted By: Heiks
A star in the Bible9 (Revelation 9: 1) is often denoted as an angel: Job 38: 7; Rev. 1:20; 12: 4. This particular star, however, is a symbol of Satan, who, according to the original Greek, had already fallen. The bottomless pit, or abyss., is where demons and evil spirits reside. Luke 8:31.
In Revelation 9:2, Jesus is symbolized by the sun: Gen. 1: 16; Rev. 1: 16; John 8: 12; TM 280. The sun is darkened by the smoke coming out of the pit, the smoke and the darkness symbolizing the absence of the spirit of God (Micah3:6), false doctrine and error.


The stars--

8:10-11 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven,...And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood;

9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


Are these stars "satan"? did he fall twice?

The terminology of both verse is the same --

pipto == to fall down, come to ruin, fall under judgment
from
ouranos == heaven

the first fell upon the rivers and waters
the second fell upon the land or earth

ge = land, earth

Now, there's no question that Satan is BEHIND all the seemingly bright adversary stars, but like the dragon of Rev. 12 which also refers to Satan, he worked through the Roman governments, both pagan and papal in Rev. 12, thus he is probably also working through a human group in Revelation 9.

So who is he working through in these trumpets?

In my understanding the first star falls on the waters and is called wormwood.
That describes the papacy, falling on the water of life back in 538, turning the gospel (water of life) into wormwood,
Duet. 29:18 (paraphrased) turning the hearts away from the LORD our God, to serve the gods of these nations; bringing in the root that bears gall (deceit) and wormwood;

The second star falls on the earth, or inhabited land.
This describes the Moslems coming as "punishment" against the "wormwood infested" Christians like locusts and threatening their very existance.

The sun is not Jesus, that sounds too much like sun worship. The sun is symbolic of righteousness. Of course Jesus is the source of righteousness, but He is greater than any created object. In the third trumpet it is righteousness that is darkened and hid from people.

The third trumpet refers back to 538 AD(of course the problem that began then continues to this day)
But that is still all part of historicist interpretation, not futurist interpretation of the trumpets.

Before continuing here is my understanding of the trumpets:
All the trumpets are judgments against apostates who claim to believe in God, but are in actuality rejecting Him.

First Trumpet refers to time 70 AD -135
Judgment against Jerusalem

Second Trumpet refers to time 312-476
Imperial CHRISTIAN Rome (not pagan Roman as Rome's state religion was Christianity during this time)
That great mountain (imperial Rome) was thrown into the sea amid a lot of violence and death.

Third Trumpet refers to time 538-
The papacy rises on the ashes of Rome, and pollutes the gospel

Forth Trumpet
The darkness of the dark ages falls over Europe

Fifth Trumpet
The punishment against Christian Rome (phase one) by Islam

Sixth Trumpet (1449- 1840)
The punishment against Christian Rome (phase two) by Islam
this actually facilitated the rise of Protestantism as the papacy was too busy fighting Turks to effectively curb the reformers. Near the end of the sixth trumpet the papacy and the Islamic power lose their power, true prophecy and gospel message goes forth.

Seventh Trumpet
The IJ begins (and for awhile the angels hold back the winds of strife till God's people receive the final seal.
The nations are angry, all former controversies (with some new ones thrown in) come back to life in a final show down. The papacy comes out on top and with force of civil arm of nations, deceit and violence seeks to bring all the world under its primacy -- till Christ stands up. Final judgment is executed and Christ reigns forever.






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